Thread

[dw]

Most bootmakers I know use a size 33 or 46 bonded nylon thread for closing. Some will even use a size 69 for work boots.

Check "Sources" or do a keyword search...you should find some places and phone numbers where you can get thread.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[marcell]

Can someone give me idea where I can order the ready made the very strong nylon thread for sewing the welt? I would need approx. 2,5 meter long pieces.

[dw]

Marcel,

I don't think you want nylon...it stretches too much. I would recommend dacron, insteead.

I don't know where you would get it in Europe, but Maine Shoe and Machine in the US carries prewaxed (don't know if they have tapers) and unwaxed. the unwaxed is what I use simply because the waxed is predominantly beeswax or paraffin--neither will lock when the stitch is tightened.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[corvin]

DW, do you have contact info for Maine Shoe and Machine?

FYI, I just called Baltor O & Sons and they carry them. They are only 60 inches in length but do have tapered ends.

(Message edited by corvin on January 23, 2009)

[dw]

Craig, Marcel,

Here's Maine Thread's website...:

http://www.mainethread.com/Improved_Waxed_Cord.html

It appears that they do indeed carry waxed tapers. I always buy spools of unwaxed (which they might not list but do sell) and I use "11 cord" for inseaming. It's really about 7 or 8 strands of Teklon (Maine's name for dacron) but it is supposed to be about the same diameter as 12 strands of #10 linen yarn. I think it is more like 10 strands of #10 linen yarn. But it is perfect for inseaming what ever it is.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

Interesting! I think I'll try out some of their tapers. They're pretty cheap.

[marcell]

I order some soon! Thanks for the help!

[dw]

When I first started buying from them they sent me a colour card...with colours like turquoise, raspberry, green, etc..

I have always been tempted to switch to a odd coloured thread for inseaming. It wouldn't be seen and it would sure identify my work. At the very least it would be a change-up from brown or white.

Of course, I would then be forced to use white or "clear" handwax....which wouldn't be that big a problem.

I still have a fair amount of unwaxed white on a spool but next time...I'm tempted, I'm really tempted! (Stop me before I get completely out of control)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[eck]

Hello,
What do you all use for sewing the uppers? Nylon or Cotton?
Has anyone ever tried using silk thread for more fancy shoes? I would assume it would produce a beautiful shine but would it be strong enough to hold two layers (sometimes more) of leather together?
Cheers

[artzend]

Eckart

I always used a polyester core with cotton sheath, it's strong, doesn't break, and the cotton outside fills the hole and looks good.

A nylon thread is strong, but I don't like the way it unravels, given half a chance.

I would think that silk would not be strong enough but have never used it. Give it a go if you like.

Tim

[dearbone]

Eckart,

I use bonded nylon #69 made by cansew inc, i have been using it for 25 years and very happy with it, the only time i wish i have some silk thread is when i need to sew fabric shoes,it looks really good on fabric, never tried it on leather.

Nasser

[dearbone]

To prevent nylon from unraveling is to burn the ends(where you cut the thread) with a lighter and squeeze on it with fingers.

Nasser

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Silk is good and strong. Usually use polyester. Never heard of the cotton sheathed thread Is there a trade name Tim?
Just for the record -30c this am with a nice brisk wind.

[eck]

I only use nylon at the moment. I have read in some books that cotton is the most suitable (and that is what was used in the past when bespoke shoes were at their prime) and I thought I might as well give it a try. But don't seem to be able to find any in the shops I often buy my shoe stuff.

Also there must be a really strong silk thread out there to be used for leather...but where? All I can find is embroidery thread.

0c here. Heaviest snowfalls since 1991.

Eck

[dearbone]

Brendan,

Hang in there, there is only six weeks left to winter ends,than again, you can always move to back to Ontario.

Tim, If Australia is getting hot and burning, you know where to come to cool off!

Nasser

[artzend]

Brendan

The trade name here is polyfil made by Barbours I think.

It's always nice to get your weather reports, but I don't think I will turn up any time soon. I am waiting for the ridiculous heatwave to finish in South Australia. It's 81 F there right now.

Tim

[dw]

Nylon wasn't invented until 1935 and wasn't widely available until '39.

Shoes were machine sewn for literally decades before nylon thread was first produced. Silk was the thread of choice for fine, and refined, work. It was not silk embroidery thread, however. It was a machine twist.

The advantage of silk over all other threads is its luster and sheen.

At some point a sizing system for silk was established...A, B, C, D E, etc..

Later, when nylon was readily available the same sizing system was used and Rice, in particular, continued to use the alphabetical sizing system for many years. It was the first nylon thread I ever encountered.

Eventually, nylon got its own sizing system...33, 46, 69, etc. Size 46 is equivalent to a size "C" silk thread. 69 is equal to a size "D."

Nylon has a better sheen than polyester...almost on the same scale as silk.

A size 14 needle cannot handle a size 69 nylon thread...the thread is too large in diameter. A size 10 needle cannot handle a size 46 thread. A size 12 needle can, sometimes, handle a size 46 and a size 16 needle will always handle a size 46 thread.

Some of this is dependent upon whether the thread is "bonded' or not. And it may be that a given needle will handle a larger size silk thread than the equivalent nylon thread...although I am inclined to doubt it.

I use size 49 bonded nylon thread for all shoe and boot applications with the following exceptions--size 69 for coarse work boots/shoes, size 33 for delicate leathers and refined inlay work. Naturally I change the needle accordingly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[das]

I have many little spools of "glace cotton" thread, which was very popular for uppers at one time, and still sold for patchers back when I got started in 1973. But I've handled no shortage of older boots and shoes where the cotton thread has dry-rotted and the seams burst open at the slightest pressure--some boots only 50 years old. Nylon on the other hand seems to survive with strength much longer.

Also, do not forget linen machine twist. I have a Singer patcher set up (thread-ways highly polished and tensioned) to run strictly linen. Windmill English Saddlery in OH sells Coats/Barbour brown, black, and white linen, and with a patcher you should be able to run size 35/3 cord or 25/3 cord with #18 and #20 needles. For heavier work I can get it to run 18/3 cord in a #21 needle as a top thread (25/3 in the bobbin). Be sure to fill the oil cup on top of the head with neatsfoot oil, and install a felt thread-wiper to remove the excess oil, or it'll spatter everywhere. This is good for heavy-work or historical repros from the late 1800s.

[chuck_deats]

DW, Thanks for explaining the thread size systems. It had always been somewhat of a mystery.

[dw]

I've posted this a number of times on this forum but it always bears repeating, and it seem apropos...

The easiest way to determine if a needle and thread combination are "workable" is to thread a loose needle with a short (12" ) length of the thread you propose to use.

If the needle will slide easily from one end of the thread to the other, the combination will work.

It may be that the needle is too big for the thread but it will work.

If the needle has to be coaxed from one end of the thread to the other, the needle is definitely too small. And although you may be able to sew with it...especially for short distances...eventually it will fray and bunch up under the needle plate.

Chuck, no biggie but you are most welcome.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on February 03, 2009)

[dw]

Speaking of linen thread for inseaming...my wife bought some raw flax for spinning some years ago. It was French "dew retted" linen.

It took me several years to get skilled enough and get an image in my mind to where I could turn (on a lathe) a nice little distaff for her spinning wheel. I did that for her this Christmas.

last week she began to wet spin some of this flax into linen yarn. It ended up being very fine...at least a #10.

But the really interesting thing was that occasionally she will get "schlubs" and tangles that must be pulled out of the "cone" and discarded.

Out of curiousity, I examined some of this stuff--the discard pile. Most of the fibers--the "staple" to put it in wool terms--were at least 15-18 inches long (remember this is discards) but at least 30-40% were over 24" and one strand I extracted went 37" and another 32".

Next time you make up a waxed end out of linen yarn(even vintage yarn) take the time to unravel a section of yarn...I bet you can't come up with strands longer than 6" and most will be in the neighborhood of 3"-4". What's more, most of it has been bleached...further weakening it.

The point is that even though linen is the holy grail of traditional work, we don't have access to anything near to what was used in traditional work.

The strands in Teklon, on the other hand, are virtually continuous.

Just a thought...FWIW.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[thomd]

Did you figure you could make a thread by spining it? Obviously it could be done, since cotton was hand spun, everything at one time, but was it very difficult? I am finishing up a spinning wheel for my wife, I am not sure how much she would want to spin thread on it though. It has variable speeds and orifice to allow for a wide range of spinning.

[dw]

Thom,

I love the romance and the tradition associated with linen but I wasn't interested in it for inseaming. I truly believe that Teklon is the the better, more stable product.

But to answer your question, I think anyone who has a fair degree of control when spinning could spin linen yarn. It doesn't even need to be exactly the same size as a #10 or even the box of #3 I have. It just needs to be consistent.

On the other hand, I am not a spinner and from what I saw it isn't all that easy to get a quantity. My wife probably has the equivalent of 4 three ounce balls in a full "cap." And how tightly it's spun and whether wet spun or boiled afterwards...all questions that would have to be sorted out.

If, however, ala S.M. Sterling, all modern technology were to fail tomorrow, I know where I would turn. I kind of like that.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[thomd]

I want to order some pre-tapered thread from Maine Thread. "Skeins with Tapered Ends" is what they call them. I want to order a size for uppers, and a size for soles. I was thinking their 6 cord for the former, and the 11 cord for the latter. Anyone have a better idea? Are two sizes sufficient. Anyone want to venture an opinion on an appropriate sellection of lengths?

http://www.mainethread.com/Improved_Waxed_Cord.html

Most likely I will sew as much as I can of the uppers on my sewing machines, but in case I run into problems there, and for the practice, I would like to have a sellection of thread sufficient to do it all by hand. I am making men's dress shoes.

Marcell, if you have used yours yet, what did yor think of it?

Thanks

[thomd]

Also what size on the spool should I buy, unwaxed if I want to make my own skeins up. They don't seem to go by the thread sizes like 69, they use their own system. DW you mentioned buying some unwaxed.