Lasting

[relferink]

DW,

Thanks for making me feel less paranoid about loosing my mind
I think the question should be if I'm a 'real shoemaker'? Same answer applies.

Rob

[j1a2g3]

I need some advice and I'm hoping someone has the answer to my problem.

I am trying to last a hiking boot made from 7-8oz latigo leather. I have been able to clear the pipes around the heel fairly easy. It's the pipes around the toe that I'm having problems with.

Here are two pictures of the boot.

7685.jpg

7686.jpg

Any suggestion on how to get those pipes to lay flat? Also, why does the heel last so much easy then the toe?

Thanks in advance, Joel

[tmattimore]

Joel
You've got way too much heavy leather in one spot. You may need to open up what you have lasted and cut a sereis of v shaped notches around the toe. the point of the V should be far enough away from the feather edge so that it does not show. I would lay the shoe on its side on a cutting board and cut away from the shoe rolling it over on the toe as you go. I would put the first notch just in front of the nail. I don't know why but heels have always been easier then toes for me
Tom

[dw]

Joel,

Are you going to welt these boots? Do you have a outside channel cut into the insole?

The reason the heel cleared so easily is that the leather only had to bend in one direction--it's coming down straight along the back of the last and then it only needs to bend over the edge of the insole. It's a 90° is all.

Around the toe it is a 180°. The leather of the vamp lays more or less flat on top of the last, then it has to bend 90° to come over the front of the last and then 90° again to come over the insole.

If you are welting around the last, you may need to thoroughly wet the toe and keep dividing pipes until most of the pipes are up on the insole and nothing shows below the feather/outside channel. You may need to do this for both the lining and the vamp separately.

Let that dry overnight and then add your toe stiffener and wipe the toe--the technique is outlined in the book lying under the boot. You don't have to lay the leather flat on the insole--you don't need to make that final 90° bend, in other words. Just tack the wiping strip through the upper and into the feather. Pull all the pipes above the wiping strip. And let it rest/set.

When you inseam, the welt will lay along the same line as the wiping strip did and all pipes will be "above" (over) the welt and insole and can be trimmed off when you are done inseaming.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[artzend]

Joel

Last your lining separately. That will reduce a lot of the bulk and just leave you with the upper to deal with.

Tim

[j1a2g3]

DW,

Yes, I am going to welt the boot and I do have the insole channeled and pre-holed. I'm not sure if I will use a 3/4 welt and pegs or a full welt in the end.

I followed your wet lasting method in your book.
I even soaked the leather 6 hours so I knew the water would penetrate all the way through the leather. One of the problems I have is not being able to pull the pipes up and over the edge of the last or divide them because of how thick and stiff the latigo leather is.

Could I set up some type of crimping broad to help shape the leather ahead of time?

(You don't have to lay the leather flat on the insole--you don't need to make that final 90° bend)

Are you saying that I just have to get the pipes up and over the feather line? How will that work when I go to welt the boot? I always thought the upper had to lay aleast somewhat flat along the outside channel or am I mistaken?

Thanks Joel

[j1a2g3]

Tom,

Thanks,
I did try reducing the amount of leather around the toe. It didn't really help all that much.

Tim,

Thanks, I did that around the heel and it helped but it didn't do much at the toe end.

[dw]

Joel,

Are you saying that I just have to get the pipes up and over the feather line? How will that work when I go to welt the boot? I always thought the upper had to lay a least somewhat flat along the outside channel or am I mistaken?

Yes, that is what I am saying. If you trim the upper back flush with the fleshside of the welt after inseaming all those pipes will be above the welt and will be trimmed off. The welt follows the feather. If the pipes are above the feather they will be above the welt. If they are above the welt they will either be trimmed off or be sandwiched some way or the other between the welt and the sole--not visible on the boot.

If lasting is a form of shaping (and I think we can stipulate that it is) then it is also a form of crimping. So an extra crimping process is probably not needed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

I must first say that I have not used latigo for shoes or boots.

I have however used latigo for other things and find that I sometimes have to heat the leather to make it more moldable. I usually use a hair dryer to apply some heat in the area I need. I have found that latigo seems to respond better to the heat than water for this purpose.

That being said, heat also can effect glues, so I am not sure of the exact usage in the toe of a shoe. Maybe someone else can give advise relative to this.

[j1a2g3]

DW

If the upper doesn't lay flat on the insole, how do you glue it to the bottom or at least keep it in place while you last the boot?

Besides wetting the leather, is there something I can do that would make it more moldable without weakening it's strength?

Is my attemp at using such a stiff and thick leather (7-8oz latigo leather) futile? Do I even need such a thick leather for a hiking boot?

Also, How thick should 7-8oz leather be? I only ask this question because I'm new and this leather always seemed a little thick to me.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get my mind around this. Thanks for all your help, Joel

[j1a2g3]

Terry,

I have seen pieces of leather molded to form by submersing them in boiling water and then shaping them around a solid object. The shrinkage was aleast 30 to 40 percent. Does heating the leather with a hair dryer have the same effect? How long do you have to mold the leather before it begins to set? Does heat weaken the leather?

Thanks for your help, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

As Tim suggested you should probably last the lining first...pulling out as many of the pipes as is possible. The vamp itself can be pulled over but the pipes left proud. Then after the vamp has had a chance to dry a bit, peel back the vamp and mount the toe stiffener. After the toe stiffener has been given its final shape and form, I usually add a cement of one kind or another--contact cement or press cement--and pull the toe of the vamp.

This is when you need to wipe the toe. The pipes can be pulled as far over the insole and laid as flat as possible on the insole but if you wipe the toe you do not need to lay every millimeter of the the vamp leather down flat on the insole....you only need to clear the pipes and wrinkles so that the vamp, over the toe and as it approaches the feather and the welt line, is clear of any and all wrinkles or pipes.

My suggestion is to read what I wrote yesterday again...just because it augments this explanation...and perhaps the relevant section in the book again, before proceeding. But it can be done and once you get the hang of it, there's no problem at all.

I'm posting at an internet cafe on the Oregon coast, so I can't be very active.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

Joel

If you haven't seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3w1gaxZkgA has 3 lasting videos, you can also download them from http://www.shoemakingbook.com if you want to keep them. It is pretty much as DW has written above, but seeing it may be easier for you to comprehend.

Tim

[artzend]

Joel

Heat is bad for leather. You can use a light hair dryer setting for blowing wrinkles from leather, which is just shrinking it, if you do it too much both veg tanned and chrome tanned leathers will dry out and crack.

Tim

[clairemorgan]

I could do with a bit of help.

I have managed to get a last, adjusted it to my size, create a pattern and bought a variety of skivving knifes. I have successfully managed to skive with out cutting the tops of my fingers off! Now I am thinking about the leathers to use.

It occurs to me that with shoe making you are only as good as what the teacher shows you? I was shown that the midsole was created from base board (yellow and pink that have different weights) how ever reading through Tim's book he suggests that it should be leather. I have bought 2 skins and I think they are both chrome finished. Would I do well to invest in a veg tan leather? Does this mean that I need to buy some thing suitable for the midsole and also something for the sole itself. Is it possible to get all the different irons from one skin or do you need a selection. Sorry such a basic question but I cant get my head around this.

Its just that what I have been shown is a lot different to what I read here and also in the shoe making books.

Many Thanks Claire

[dw]

Claire,

This is a loaded question as there are advocates of both positions here on this forum.

My take is to use leather as much as possible in the construction of a shoe or boot. I don't like synthetics. I've never seen a synthetic that could do the job it was designed for as well as the original leather precursor material...if there is a leather precursor (think athletic shoes)...esp. when handled by someone who is both skilled and intent on making a leather shoe. But that's just my opinion... take it for what it's worth.

Beyond that, I would probably try to take my midsole out of an insole shoulder...and yes, you can get your insoles and your midsoles and even your heels stiffeners and toe boxes from insole leather. Of course, that assumes you're going to use a leather insole and leather heel stiffener, etc..

If not, and you still want a leather outsole, then you might be able to get a midsole out of the margins of a soling bend...towards the belly. You'll need a splitter, though.

So there you have it...one VPPOV--your mileage may vary...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 19, 2008)

[clairemorgan]

DW,
thank you,

I have tried to source the materials I used in lessons - with great difficulty. Reading the books - I think I can take a step back not get to hung up about replicating the lesson and be more experimental - I agree with you that to use more natural product - leather has to be the way forward.

I have bought synthetic soling - it does a great job for the soles on my felt house slippers (bespoke and hand made from organic wool - what else) but not the right product for hand made shoes.

Claire

[erickgeer]

Claire,

As DW said, there are various opinions on insoles. I'm presuming you are making cemented shoes and not inseamed, so here are a couple of thoughts:

I'm in the camp that prefers leather insoles. For cement construction I like to use 5/6 or 6/7 oz. veg tanned shoulder. For beginners like my students, we use fiber board- Bontex or Texon- which it sounds like you previously used. Manufactured insoles will often have a shank sandwiched between layers of fiberboard and "shankboard" to provide lateral stability. If you plan on making higher heels, you will need something dense to help support a shank and the screw and nails needed to secure the heel- perhaps medium weight soling leather.

The insole shoulders I've seen and heard about (please understand that it is not my specialty) are far too thick for cemented construction. This forum is predominantly concerned with inseamed boots and shoes, so much of the advise has to be filtered to your own product requirements.

I hope this helps,

Erick

[artzend]

Claire

You can use the board insoles if you have no leather for the job. I like leather (veg tanned belly, if you can get it) as it moulds to the insole better. Board doesn't. Go with the insole shoulders if you can get them.

Having access to a splitter is a bonus, but if you can't choose a thin shoulder/belly, you can thin it by using your skiving knife once you have cut the pieces out.

I would think that soling leather would be a bit hard, because of the nature of the material.


Tim

[suzanne]

Claire,
Insole shoulders...$$$$$! I saw some of Keystone Leathers precut insoles in Wichita Falls and they seemed okay--dont know what thicknesses they offer. I use 10 iron for boots.
I dont know your construction techniques or equipment available but for cemented boot soles I sand a 1/8 inch deep relief, 3/4 inch wide around the forefoot of the insole so things dont get so thick at the edge when gluing the upper leather down. Everything is pretty flush.

[erickgeer]

Okay, I'm revisiting stitchdown construction- the real one- not my usual variation, and it's been an absolute nightmare. I know people and books have said that it is hard to last "to the wood", but my experiences are making it seem not even approachable. I'm talking serious fit issues here- I'm imagining that even with the machinery described by Clarks that there would be at least some quality control issues.

Before I ditch this and go back to my "normal" method- is this consistent with others experiences, or am I missing a trick?

Thanks.

Erick

[das]

Erick,

I sweated lasting stitch-downs tight "to the wood" too, until I tried this technique:

1) Last the upper w/ linings, stiffeners, etc., "to the wood" wet with no insoles/soles involved, pull the lasting margin underneath and tack all round
2) While still damp, lightly tap the featherline with a hammer and burnish down hard with a bone
4) When thoroughly dry and set ( a week is a luxury), carefully un-last it, then prepare and fasten your insoles/soles to the last
5) Re-mount the upper, using the crease created along the featherline, but folding the lasting margin outwards, cement it down to the insole/sole, and run a pointed bone-folder around the crease to press it in tight to the last's featherline.

Not 100% satisfaction, but tighter than trying to do the initial lasting with the insoles/soles in place.

[paul]

Al,

Wow! Great tip!

Would you say the same approach would work where one would have the lining folded under and the upper folded out and stitched down?

I'm getting close to trying one that way.

Thank you,
Paul

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Paul
I do pretty much as D.A. only difference is I last with insole in place and then cement the lining to the insole. Then I pull he upper over and tap it and let it dry. as I remove the tacks I put a bit of cement between the upper and lining to keep it in it's place. Level the insole with a bit of cork. Then I cement the out sole being careful to smooth from the middle out sticking the upper to the sole last.
Then take a bone and work the upper back into the feather/sole line. This should have the upper still taunt to the last.
a turn around the presser foot on a 5 in 1 will also help define a nice line. rough trim and stitch.
Once you get it down it is a fairly quick and slick process
Post pics when done
Regards
Brendan

[erickgeer]

Al,

That is basically what I'm already doing- I have an idea that should be more successful, but I don't think I want to admit to what it actually entails.

I know in some factory work of ladies sandal styles they could nail into the cut-outs (linings weren't trimmed until de-lasting). The set-up has maybe three pincers pulling the upper tight to the last, while the technician would drive tacks into the decorative holes over the vamp area. I have a BUSMC brochure advertising this equipment, but is packed up somewhere safe for the moment- if you are interested, let me know and I'll try and dig it out and scan it.

Paul,

That it the method I usually use- one of the advantages is getting the upper to the wood. I always pre-last. The downside is that the footwear is unnecessarily heavy if you are doing casual wear- awesome for heavy work though, as it is very unlikely to fall apart.

Erick