Insoles and inseaming

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#201 Post by dw »

All,

So, not to flog a dead horse Image but, we still haven't dealt with the original question--regardless of how the feather is created, if the inseam is not "tucked" under the edge of the insole sufficiently...and a narrow welt is wanted...the outseam will cut the inseam even if we don't perceive that until much later, when the shoe is being repaired.

How do you forestall that problem? Wider feather? Wider welt? What? What? Image

Terry,

[sigh]I regret it. I am almost always up for a wee dram. I was looking forward to it...there are so many new members on the forum and folks I want to meet. I even looked into ways to "pack" my kilt for travel, although I probably would have been the odd man out...again. Image

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#202 Post by romango »

According to Al's response to me (above), the inseam WILL (or should) be tucked under the edge of the insole, if done correctly.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#203 Post by dw »

Al,

So more like this?
7984.png


Rick, all,

According to Al's response to Rick the inseam will be tucked as far under under the edge of the insole with his method as the one I describe with an eighth inch rabbeted feather.

But that's not enough because the upper leather, the lining leather and the substance of the welt itself will push the inseam threads out beyond the edge of the insole.

I know the obvious solution is to make the feather wider...or is it? At some point the feather gets so wide that support for the edge of the insole is lost. And the circumferential tensions on the vamp itself will start pulling the edge of the insole up.

I've already determined to make the feather on my next run of boots wider (seems like it has been getting wider and wider as the years have gone by) but how wide is wide enough? How wide is too wide?

Enquiring minds want to know...

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#204 Post by das »

DW,

My 2 cents--then, if you make sure the exit-hole of your sewing-stitch (no matter how the feather is made) is inboard from the feather-line of the last (edge of the insole) by: the thickness of the aggregate thickness of the upper (inc. linings and stiffeners), plus the thickness of the welt's substance, plus the distance in from the edge of the finished welt you want your row of sole stitches to be, your stitching ought to handily miss the welt-sewing underneath Image

Before you set about making this shoe or boot, you should have it in your mind how wide a welt is wanted, and how much the finished sole edge should shelve out from the upper--one that shows all round the forepart, or a "close" welt that is almost hidden under the uppers in wear. For a stout, wide welt, you want your sole-stitching to be only "X" in from the finished edge, else your stitches may come out in rags around the edge if you trim/finish it too close to the threads, or subsequent repairing does. If it's a "close" welt, you don't want to see a vast expanse of barren welt leather outside, between the row of stitching-stitches and the finished edge either. All this needs to be taken into consideration at the beginning when you lay out the holdfast and feather on the insole. And the "X" plus "Y" plus "Z" formula above keeps our stitching-stitches out of our sewing-stitches 9/10ths of the time.

After sewing and welt-beating, but before the outer sole goes on, I spend some time with a good bone cleaning-out the crevice betwixt the upper and the welt surface, and burnish the uppers (and consequently, simultaneously, the insole feather) upward, hard against the last inside to get a good open area in there, as well as to better define the feather-line of the last around the forepart, especially round the toe. Then I burnish the welt downward, away from the upper as much as possible. All this opens up that area, and gives you a very neat, straight, and accessible shot for welt-stitching, whether by hand or by machine. Failure to dress-out the crevice well seems to me to reduce the nice clean definition I like to see in there in a finished shoe/boot, which also serves as a visual guide for the stitching.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#205 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Looking more closely at the photo you posted, it appears that your feather...and where your stitches come out on the outside edge of the holdfast...is at least a quarter inch wide if not five-sixteenth. Is that correct?

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#206 Post by das »

Rick,

Yes, absolutely. How far under is controlled by the "X" plus "Y" plus "Z".
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#207 Post by das »

DW,

Can you scan and post from 'Boot & Shoe Mfg.' by Frank Plucknett, 1931, pg. 223 Fig. 240, and pg. 224 Fig 242,243,244 showing how to feather a welted insole for hand sewing? This shows/tells it all on how I'm cutting and peening my feathers--rather than stair-step cutting like you do. Maybe Golding on hand-sewns has some more on this too?

Somewhere, in one of the books, is a diagram/photo showing the insole, and the varying distances in from the edge to place the holdfast, but I'll be jiggered if I could find it on a quick flip through the library shelves here.

An eighth inch feather is way too narrow for much of any footwear I can envision, and it needs to vary around the forepart anyway, but yes, if it's too wide, the feather will curl up inside--that's why the "X" plus "Y" plus "Z" formula Image
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#208 Post by dearbone »

DW,

You are correct,it is 1/4 inch wide,it is an insole of a police riding boots,i counted 8 or 9 strands for inseaming,BTW, i made him new ones and kept the his old ones,i make rabbet for my insoles,but i round the leather insole feather (edge)as not to cut into the lining when the soles are stitched,i had my rabbet breaking during inseaming,but never when i stitch the soles,it might be too much pressure from the machine and you might need to give more than 1/8 width to the rabbet,i usually make them 3/16 wide for shoes and 1/4 inch for boots.
my 2 cents

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#209 Post by big_larry »

One caution,

Friends, as I started my bootmaking career two years ago, I cut the feather line of my insole a bit wide. This changed the size of the foot cavity drastically. I still wear that first pair of boots, but I learned a critical lesson. to get the proper fit according to my measurements, the feather edge of the insole has to be cut exactly to the featherline of the last.

I suppose that this lesson could be used in reverse to accomadate a foot that fit too tight in the fitter. I think it would be much better to modify the last and keep the feather line "dead on." I have also wondered about moving the notch (rabbit) to 5/16" when using the thicker insole? Like many of you, I am trying to keep the threads appart. I use a very wide welt and after the outsole is glued on I rough trim the welt-sole and then sew the outsole and welt. I them final trim the welt-outsole and burnish to finish. I have the option to place the outsole stitch line wherever I want it. If it is too far out from the boot it looks bad%$@%@$%. If it is sewen neatly right up to the top leather then it is co-mingling with the holdfast stitch.

Thank you for discussing this issue. This is a great learnin opportunity!

Best Wishes, Larry Peterson
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#210 Post by dw »

Al,

Yes, I've already scanned them in but I just got off the phone for two hours talking to technical support because it appears the forum is not sending out email notifications. I hope it will be fixed later today.

I'll post the text and the illustrations either later tonight or tomorrow morning.


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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#211 Post by dw »

All,

Looks like email notification is down ...probably at least through the weekend (tech support is in the Phillipines).

The good news is that the forum is still working!Image

Anyway., here's the text and illustrations from Plucknett that Al requested...



7986.png


It will, of course, be realized that it is absolutely necessary for the seam that fastens
the welt to the insole to be waterproof, and also that the easiest seams to make water-
proof are those where flat surfaces fit against flat surfaces. Two types of feather are used
with hand-made welt seams. One of these is shown in Fig. 242; in reducing the edge the
substance left between B and A must be regulated by the material in the upper, but
it should never be so much reduced that it is too weak to keep the upper in its correct
position. The angle BCD must be such that when the awl enters at D and emerges at E,
the point E will be far enough from the edge to permit the stitching-on of the sole to be
as close to the feather as may be required (Fig. 241). E will have to be deep enough
in the substance of the insole to permit the use of a thread sufficiently strong for that
class of boot; much will depend upon the nature of the leather.

There are two disadvantages with this type of feather. The tendency is for DE to be-
come straight when heavy threads are used, the straining of the thread producing an
effect as in Fig. 243, for, as the thread straightens, the insole is lifted off the last.
This will be confirmed upon examining the inside of any handsewn boot in which this
shape of feather is used, and the effect will be more pronounced if the insole is inclined
to be soft or if it had been wetted for sewing on the welt.

The second disadvantage is that the hole just above E is often weak, and in pulling up
the stitch it may yield; an endeavour, however, is sometimes made to counteract this
tendency by "paning" or "peening" the feather before holing; this "peening" (beat-
ing it with the keen edge of the hammer) would cause the feather to be hollow as at
Fig. 244. This shape of feather is considerably stronger than that in Fig. 242,
because there is a buttress against which to strain up the welt. Peening also compresses
the leather; therefore, it will be less liable to sink (and the stitch become loose) in beating
out the welt.

The transition from this type of feather to the shoulder channel (Fig. 245) was only
natural, and its advantages are very evident, for in pulling up the stitch there is the square
shoulder to pull against; and in hammering down the welt seam. The latter is not made
7987.png


less solid through any compression that may take place at S. It sometimes happens that
the insoles are less in substance than is desirable, and an awl with less curve at B
(Fig. 226) may have to be used, and to make a solid seam BL (Fig. 245) may be increased
to BM (Fig. 245); but from M to where the point of the awl would emerge on the welt
would be so wide that it would be a big strain on the insole. In practice, therefore,
KLM would be cut away (*) so that the awl could at once enter into the body of the
leather, and thus a strong seam could be made even with a light insole. A similar channel
is used when the leather is very brittle in its fibre. 2

* This channel is described bv Rees, p. 20.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#212 Post by homeboy »

Dee-Dubb,

Makes sense to me!

Sorry to hear you're not coming to Oklahoma. I can unload my truck full of wood, but I'll still bring my gun. Even though I'll not see you in a dress, there's still some strange critters in Oklahoma.

Take care and congratulations on your new title of "Grandpa"!

Adios, Jake
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#213 Post by dw »

Jake,

How you holdin' out, homie?? You and Arkansas have been hit pretty hard this year haven't you?

I learned a lot from this thread. (Why is it these glitches with the Internet always happen on a weekend and always just as a thread is getting going good? )

But although I do, and have done, my feathers pretty much the same way, and for many of the same reasons, as Plucknett describes in the last paragraph above and in fig. 245., I am going to start cutting my feather wider than I have been--at least three-sixteenth if not a quarter of an inch. I cannot think of a situation or a leather mix...what with vamps and vamp linings at four ounce plus the almost one-eighth inch thickness of the welt...that does not add up to close on to a quarter of an inch.

As for seeing me in a kilt...weel, laddie in t'day's world, it's a sure way to tell which side o' the closet is yours--the wife's side being full o' trousers. Image

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#214 Post by tjburr »

Al and Alasdair,

Thanks for the response on the "rolled" welt.

Al,

Your explanation of it being a thinner leather helped me connect a few facts on other shoes. For instance on the following shoe I now understand why it looked like the leather in the upper and the leather in the welt were the same. It's hard to see, especially since I reduced the image to save download time, but this same welting method was used.

For others that might be reading, this shoe is I believe from roughly the same period. This shoe might be a little "newer" if that term can be used for something from 1600 Image

I remember when I saw these it was interesting how the welt was extended to cover the heel (second picture - I zoomed in on the original to make it more visible).

This shoe and the previous shoe were both in a very wonderful museum in the Netherlands in 's-Hertogenbosch called Nederlands Leder Schoenen Museum (www.schoenenmuseum.nl). There were shoes from all periods with a few nice reproductions like the one I posted mixed in as well. There were also a large number and wide variety of shoe making machines. I strongly recommend that if you are anywhere close that it is worth visiting. Plan on spending lots of time.
7991.jpg

7992.jpg


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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#215 Post by homeboy »

Dee-Dubb,

Did you make that emoticon? If you would put a mustache on that rascal, it's a spitin' image of you!

Yeah, it's been a pretty hard year on us, but we're still here. Sure brings out the true character in a person. I sure feel sorry for Dave Wheeler and the rest around Houston right now. As a Nation, it's been a rough year all around. That said, it's been one of the best hay seasons on record. I'm fixing to hook up the disk mower to lay some down.

I've got an insole worked up in the shop. I'll try to snap a pic of it today and post it. Most of the time, my feather is closer to 1/4". As far as I know, I've never clipped an inseam stitch with the awl while sewing the outsole. Of course, I've always kept the last in the boot while sewing it too.

Talk with you later....

Jake
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#216 Post by romango »

I would like to second Larry's comment that this discussion has been very good learning opportunity. I think ya gotta love the details to make better shoes and boots.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#217 Post by dw »

This was a good thread...too bad about the interruption of email notification (seems to be working now).

I hope that if there is anything else that needs to be brought up or photos such as Jake promised to post, that folks will feel free to jump back in and fire 'er up again.

I learned a lot. Thanks to all those who contributed...just goes to show, even old dogs can learn a new trick ever now and again. And if you hang out in the right neck of the woods even a blind hog will root out an acorn oncet and awhile.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#218 Post by das »

DW,

Thanks a bunch for the tech-support on that scanning! Now if I can only find the top view image that tells how wide to vary the feather width around the forepart. IMO one set width, 1/4" or 3/16" will never do, as it must vary to accomodate the varying substance of uppers,stiffeners,etc., which get thicker around the very toe. The "X" plus "Y" plus "Z" plus... is just a rule of thumb--not the law. As the object is to avoid cutting the sewing-stitches with the stitching-stitches, one set feather width would still cause troubles around the toe unless it widens there, no?

Terry,

That museum's curator Wim Bloc has been an HCC member since the mid-'90s, when the HCC had their AGM at the Bata Shoe Museum. The Nederlands Leder Schoenen Museum is a very cool place, yes--a must-see for shoe-history and machine fans.

The shoe you posted--I'm not certain that it's not a repro, as the waist is a bit too wide for 1600, the over-hanging toe looks a little odd, and the heel shape is not entirely convincing for that date, but it's hard to tell from photos alone--in fact has a "rand" in the forepart, rather than a "welt" (rands roll underneath and are stitched through the folded edge--welts lay more or less flat, and jut out with a cut edge showing). The heel-cover was sometimes called a "rand" as well, but more easily described these days as a heel-cover. BTW, the latchets for the ties should usually rest on top of, not under the tongue. The holes in the tongue (sometimes 2 pairs) were for the actual string ties, and another pair for the large "shoe rose" that hid the real ties.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#219 Post by dw »

Al,

No problem with the scanning. If you find the illustration in question let me know.

I treat the toe box a little different than most...I don't last the toe stiffener with the shoe/boot but add it later. Because it is hard leather, after it has dried, I can cut a rabbet in it much same as I do on the insole. In this way I accomplish two things--I effectively extend the feather of the insole and I thin out the stiffener to the point where it is a less consequence than if I had not. My stiffener is, of course tapered and thinned the further away from the end of the last that it gets. But over the very extreme end of the last it is full thickness (6 iron?)...except!!--in the feather where it thins to probably less than one ounce.

I don't know whether that ameliorates the need to widen the feather around the toe or not...it's something I am going to be looking at more closely.

Having said all that, I think it would be no problem to set the feather (and the tool used to cut the rabbet--an American channel knife in my case) to a quarter inch and then rasp the forepart wider where necessary.

I have found that with shoes, I do need to hand cut the rabbet wider in the waist area especially if I am shooting for a fiddleback waist, however.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#220 Post by paul »

I'll just chime in on the great learning experience this thread has been. Thank you to all.

But I especially appreciate the illustrations. I was lost there for a little bit.

I've taken alot of boots apart and restitched miles and miles of welt, and I believe, as far as boots are concerned certainly, the insole design from Plunkett in Fig, 245, is the sturdiest and most water/dust tight by far.

I still can't find the post with Al's X,Y,and Z yet, though. But I'm assuming it's the upper, liner and welt respectivly, right?

Paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#221 Post by dw »

Paul,

Look above to Friday, Sept 19th at 7:21am.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#222 Post by big_larry »

D.W.,

On Sept. 20 you indicatd that you was going to "cut the feather a little wider." In my mind I see the cut being made leaving leather out beyond the last feather line. I mentioned that I had made a serious mistake starting in boot school and for the next two pair of boots I made, by cutting outside of the last's feather line. This caused the volume inside the foot chamber to increase and comprimised the fit. Please clear up my "mental delema" and explain if I am visualizing correctly or am I confusing what you said with my own encoding and decoding of information. "As I stumble around in darkness I am calling out for light and knowledge."

Thank you for your patience with we who are a bit slower to catch on.

Thank you,

Larry Peterson
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#223 Post by dw »

Larry,

You mentioned that before, but if I am understanding you correctly, you are mis-understanding me.

I will trim the insole right up to the feather edge of the last--flush...maybe a skosh undercut.

Now just to clarify the confusion that has reigned since I called the feather an outside channel, the "feather" is the notch, dimple or space alloted on the edge of the insole where the inseam will be. The "featherline" is the sharp corner on the bottom of the forepart of the last. Again, I will trim my insole flush to the featherline...no overhang.

Then...see fig.245 (from Plucknett) above...I will cut the feather (rabett)--CSBA--wider. Currently I cut the feather/rabett a little over one eighth inch from A to B. I want to cut it more like a quarter inch from A to B in the Plucknett illustration. As Al has suggested, in some areas you might even want to cut it wider than that depending on how wide the combined substance of lining (X), vamp (Y) and stiffener (Z) adds up to (don't look for XYZ on Plucknett's illustration...that's strictly Al's terminology).

And as I mentioned above, when making a fiddleback shank on a shoe I want to tuck the welt in tight to the vamp so getting the inseam inset well under the edge of the insole seems desirable. Of course someone like Mack or Marcell might have other opinions on this...they are the real experts here, in that regard.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#224 Post by tjburr »

Al,

Nice to know that the curator is a member.

Thanks for the info, I can see how a Rand could be used as you explain.

I am not sure of the exact date for the shoe, since that is one display that I did not take a picture of the writeup on the display. I usually am interested in a slightly different style, and there were so many wonderful displays that was one I probably did not spend too much time getting pictures. I think I could have easily spent two days at the museum and unfortunately only had about 4 hours.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#225 Post by big_larry »

Thank you!

All is well!

FWIW, I think you are doing te correct thing.

Thank you for the clearification. I will, from this day forward refere to the feather and the feather edge in their correct and proper place.

I can now sleep well knowing that you will not comprimise the fit.

Thank you for tolerating me,

Larry Peterson
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