Looking for...

[dw]

Sean, Nasser,

Here's what I am looking for:

The first image is of a product that is no longer available from a company in LA. It is/was touted as 15 iron.

6887.jpg

The second is the toplift that Goetz carries. It is touted as being 6.5mm or roughly 13 iron. It comes in four sizes.

6888.jpg

I think I would rather have the thicker lift but I am guessing they aren't made as thick as when they were common--in the Elder days of the world.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

PS.

As I look at it now, I see something I didn't before....the Goetz toplift has the rubber puzzle-plug square to the lift as a whole; whereas the first image has the puzzle-plug at an angle.

The angled plug is the one I would prefer.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mac]

Dw,

I thought that was the one you meant. No, I can't see one with that design in my books. I prefer the cosmetics of the first one (diagonal) puzzle piece)too. I'll keep my eyes on this post to find out where you eventually find it.

Nasser,

I'm just getting things set up so no I don't have a supplier for insole strips or bends in Canada. (I participated in the Baker group order so I'll be ok once that comes in)
Sean

[dw]

San,

Thanks for checking. I appreciate the effort...I really do.

I am a little worried by the lack of a response on this query...is it because it's a weekend or because there is no one carrying or importing these toplifts anymore?

If the former, well, that's understandable and maybe someone will come up with a lead next week.

If the latter, it's just another sign of the state of the Trade, particularly here in the US. Combination toplifts with the rubber cut straight (square or angled) are readily available...although most of them have some sort of label stamped into the rubber or worse, into the leather...but one cannot help wondering why it is that we are so ready to accept second best and why manufacturers are so eager to foist it off on us.

It brings to mind an old saw..."penny-wise and pound foolish."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on February 09, 2008)

[mac]

DW,

One of my orthopedic suppliers has direct access to a German shoe manufacturer. They'll often have products made up custom for them and shipped from Europe. I wish I could recall the name of the German contact but I do have a full catalog on order with shoe making supplies/equipment. I'll look for your toplift when the catalog arrives.

Sean

[mack]

DW,
Only one of the bespoke makers I know over here use these or similar heels.The others use separate 1/4 rubbers and fit a heel piece of leather to it.
This has the advantage of using the same type of leather for sole and heel so you get a colour match when finishing, however it is more work.
I guess a customer would not really notice a slight colour difference in the finish.I don't know for sure but jigsaw shaped ones do not seem available here anymore.
Regards Mack.

[dearbone]

Mack, well put. that's exactly how I do it whenever I need to use combination heels, stright line cuts,As a matter of fact my teacher hardly used one piece leather lifts on heels, but finds two smaller heel leather to make a whole one.
Nasser.

[dw]

Mack,Nasser,

OK...good advice. I've done that lots of times. Of course, it means you have to be cutting your outsoles from a bend. I have done but I am currently using some chestnut tan cut soles that come in from Italy. So unless I want to sacrifice an extra sole...not completely out of the question...I face the same finish problem.

I do believe I've seen the puzzle-plug lifts on G&G, or one (or more) of the other top shelf makers. I know that when the toplift is made that way the rubber runs all the way under the leather. I thought that was a good thing.

A question....when doing it with a straight edged half moon shape, I was taught to cut the rubber at about a 45° angle and then the leather toplift at a -45° where it will butt up against the rubber. The object was to get the leather to lie over the rubber a little. Is this the way you do it? It's hard to tell from the photos.

I kind of like the look of the puzzle-plug but I do admire the way you have handled the toplift on the black shoes in the Gallery, Mack.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

I am a little worried by the lack of a response on this query...is it because it's a weekend or because there is no one carrying or importing these toplifts anymore?

WHAT, it's the weekend already? Party time.

I come up empty on the puzzle piece heels as well. The ones referred to and carried by Hanover and Frankford come from Soletech. Other domestic finders carry them as well.

Two considerations on the interlocking combo heels, the first one Mack brought up. The quality, grade and tanning of the leather in the pre-made heels will not match your soles.
The other one is that all the combo heels with an interlocking piece that I worked with have a rubber base about 4 to 6 irons, than the combo top lift. The rubber base shows up in your heels and gives the shoe a less finished look compared to a full leather heel with only a rubber corner piece for wear. I know you are going for a very refined look so I wonder if you would be satisfied with that rubber base layer showing.
I can't tell if the Goetz heels are made that way but I suspect they are. You could buy a larger size from Goetz and place them angled so the cutout piece will be cornered.

It's a sad state of affairs that those products are no longer available to purchase. I wonder how expensive it would be to have a cutting dye made to punch your own heels with a hydraulic hand press. It allows you to use material of your own choice and one dye should be enough to punch both "pieces of the puzzle".


Rob

[relferink]

DW,

Didn't see your last post till just now after I posted. Guess the rubber base layer is not in issue and working with pre-cut soles makes it less economical to use the same leather on your top lift.

The few times I had to piece together a combo heel I cut the rubber over the leather but not by as much as 45 degrees, from the top of my head somewhere around 80 to 85 degrees. Just slightly less than a straight cut to make it easier to cement together and not get the gap on the bottom where the rubber meets the leather.

Rob

[dw]

Rob,

Good point about the underlaying rubber breaking up the finish of the heel! I hadn't considered that.

So you're putting the rubber over the leather? Is there an advantage to doing it that way rather than vice-versa? I haven't repaired in a number of years but I am pretty sure we put the leather over the rubber on the theory that the leather could be tacked down along that edge but it occurs to me now that the thin edge of the leather would be more apt to wear than the thin edge of the rubber.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

The rubber wears better but more importantly putting it all together you place the leather piece first, than the rubber piece, using contact cement you can't really slide it in, you have to drop it in just the correct spot, thus the mild bevel. Probably picked that up doing repair but works for new work as well. You could use a 90 degree angle, cement the leather to the rubber and place it on the heel as a one piece top lift. That would straighten out that mildly crooked joint.

Now totally off topic; I can't find good use for this new clipart but like it so here it goes:

Rob

[marcell]

I got this boot trees from an old shoemaker. I am wondering if someone is looking for these things?

6890.jpg

And something what I would like to get: crimping tools (board and screw). Any idea? I mean at a reasonable price.. (I am a poor eastern european man.. )

[homeboy]

Marcell,

Here ya go:

Thornapple River Boots
N 8566 Winter Rd
Ladysmith, WI 54848
Phone:715-532-6301
Email: thornapple.boots@usa.net


Jake

[lancepryor]

Well, those nice angled toplifts have to be available somewhere, since top RTW companies like Alden, Edward Green, Crockett & Jones, Grenson, Allen Edmonds, etc. use them. Perhaps when I get a chance I'll phone Alden and see if they'll tell me. Probably would require a huge volume order, but it never hurts to inquire.

I don't mind the look of the rubber under-layer on the heel edge, but I guess that is just me.

[relferink]

Lance,

I'll be curious to see if you get it out of Alden. They are a difficult company do deal with. I've been trying to get some shoes featured in their collection for my customers. Suddenly they tell me those shoes are not in the production planning and may or may not be made anymore. They are becoming a company that stays in business in spite of them self.

I recently ran into a guy who claims he buys findings in South America for domestic shoe companies, he mentioned Alden by name as one of his customers. I'll look for his card and give him a call. He's probably off to the WSA but I'll see if I can get him when he comes back. I know he only deals with large volume orders and when I asked him about tacking onto a larger order for myself he was very non committal. If memory serves he works out of Natic or Framingham, MA. If you can't get it from Alden maybe we can get it out of him.

Rob

[dw]

All,

Thinking more on this combination toplift discussion, I recall that when we made the toplifts from two separate pieces--one rubber and one leather--we always needed to nail the rubber piece. It is small relative to the rest of the toplift and right at the point of highest impact, contact and wear. If it is not nailed on, my experience is that it soon is lost...best quality contact cement or no.

In any case, I wouldn't trust the rubber to cement alone.

This appears to be one of the reasons why the combination toplifts with the rubber under the leather, are used so extensively. Almost all the commercial combination toplifts I have seen are cut straight across (no puzzle-plug) but, as Rob suggested, the rubber runs the full length under a thin leather lift. Having the rubber running full length and width of the toplift obviates the need to nail the rubber portion specifically.

So, anyway....if my basic assumption is correct or shared, what are you guys using for nails in the rubber? I don't see any in the shoes Mack posted (although that doesn't mean they aren't there).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

DW,

I agree with you that the rubber piece be nailed if, There is no rubber under the leather, I use brass Escutcheon pins, the dome on these pins is very low and they sink well(flush) into the rubber, but they are visiable, if I prefer not to see the nails,I use thin panel nails(lasting nails)and I nip the top and slowly drive them through the rubber, just below the surface of the rubber and they will be invisiable, I personaly like the look on brass ones better,they can be sink slitly into the rubber lift, The heels on Mack's shoes appear to have full rubber under, If I am not mistaken.
Nasser.

[dw]

Nasser,

There is a product called a "blued toplift nail" that works very well under those circumstances. They come in various lengths...I think I have 5/8's and 6/8's...are thin gauge wire--maybe 19 or even 20 gauge--with a tiny head on them like a brad. They were originally made for nailing women's tiplift material on by hand (I have done)--this was in the days before autosolers. Nowadays I use them mainly for securing buildups on lasts.

But they work well in all relatively thin toplifting material. I am guessing that the half moon shaped "plug" wouldn't be any thicker than 12 iron (12 iron would probably be the thickness of the leather half) so a run of 6/8's wire toplift nails would hold the rubber very well and could be sunk just enough below the surface as to be invisible.

I wonder what everyone else is using, though? Just as the brass brads that they use in Europe are readily available here...maybe the toplifting nails aren't so available elsewhere?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mmboots]

DW,

I use my auto soler alot on rubber toplifts. If you rememeber from the repair days the auto soler uses a wire which can be cut from 2.5 to 6/8. Some of the newer ones with power can go to 14/8. But, they will go in clean and somethimes be almost invisible. Just food for thought.

Mike

[hidesmith]

I have a Nosecone and a Cinderella nailer, and I love 'em! The nosecone has an attatchment so you can nail the sole instead of sewing or pegging. It also has an attachment that allows you to use the machine as a press. Use the horn attachment and set the depth adjustment to zero. You can just keep hitting the foot-switch while moving the sole all around the horn. It supplies satisfactory pressure to the sole and helps ensure adhesion. This besides heel replacement. I see it as a worthwhild addition to any shop.

B

[das]

Bruce,

Try to get the manuals for these (Harness Shop News/Proleptic). Or I can copy you mine. They have great photos of the "million and one" things these machines were supposed to be capable of in the '30s and '40s, from knocking-on heels to "invisible soling". I've only ever used mine for heel repairs, but it works great. Just be careful of the driving-pin (I think it's called--the little pin-punch part that drives the wire-nails). These are very brittle hard steel, and cost a bomb to replace. Also, stock-up on Auto-Soler wire. My finder says it's either getting discontinued, or the current (no-name replacement) wire sucks.

[dw]

Mike,

I've used Autosolers extensively in my shadowed past--everything from the little one made for ladys toplifts to the heavy one that was used for attaching heel blocks on western boots.

Opinion Alert!! Not to flog a dead horse but....like so many machines, autosolers are so easily misused and abused that I never really developed a liking for them. I can't think of a single usage that isn't better served by another technique. The tendency with autosolers...and I relate this from real life experience...is to use them when your basic skills set is lacking. When a heel won't sit down flat on the base and a little "seam" develops between the leather and the rubber, fire up the auto soler. When the cement fails and the splice on a half sole is gaping, or the bond between a midsole and the vibram lugsole starts grinning, fire up the autosoler. When you have a heel block that you don't want to take apart and properly fit to the heel seat of a shoe or boot and you can't get it to sit down flush on the sole, riddle the block with wire stubs at 64 to the inch and problem solved.

I used to work in a high speed repair shop (about the only place an autosoler has any real utility, IMO) and I've seen and heard autosolers sound more like machine guns than the hammer they are supposed to replace. And the result was that the customer dared not get anywhere near a auto wrecking yard or they'd find themselves hanging uupside down from the magnet.

Human nature is such that when we cannot...for lack of time, circumstance, or self discipline...develop the skills to do the job with care and deliberation, we turn to "devices" to cover our handicap.

The very interesting and ongoing discussion of top shelf shoes is a good example. Sewing the outsole by hand the way Mack or Marcell or Lobbs St. James does it, is very difficult to master. So what do we humans do? We invent a machine to do it...not the same look or quality...but one could say "functional," at least. And better yet, it relieves us of the pressure to grow our skill set. How many of us (myself included...mea culpa) fall back on the machine rather than learn the skills? How many of us tell ourselves "it's just as good?" And maybe it is (to a point) but it doesn't go very far towards "preserving and protecting."

End Opinion Alert

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Just a few thoughts about the rubber /leather toppiece discussion
The rubber pieces that I use have a little lip that the leather is fitted to.I first glue the rubber to the heel and then I fit the leather toppiece cutting it so there are no gaps and then glue the leather along with blind nails or a specific nail pattern My customers will not accept nails in the rubber showing or leaving marks but I have had no trouble with just glue .
The ready made toppieces I have used were assembled the same, they did not having a whole layer of rubber running through as this would spoil the look of the finish needed.
I think other variations and methods of doing this heel are fine as long as it is neatly done.
Regards Mack.

[mack]

DW,
Just read your 'opinion alert' piece.My rambling thoughts on the subject I agree we should all strive to develope new skills and to keep alive old ones if possible .Sometimes it just isn't practical to do this as the time involved makes the finished product too expensive.The labour must match the grade the work is aimed at.We are lucky to be abled to devote time to our work and still earn a living.
I dont want people to think that if they are not hand stitching and hand finishing they are letting the craft down. We all do what we do and providing we give it our best efforts it all helps keep it our trade alive.I still look at some of the old model shoes in London and wonder at the skills these men had, but today we have to make the best of it.
Regards Mack.