DW,
Got any pictures of that, I just used to mark from the back and glue the cord and then cover with goat lining mainly because I used it a lot, then turn the vamp over and rub with the bone folder up to the cord on both sides, this helped to define the cord.
Tim
Lasting
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erickgeer
Re: Lasting
I've got a bug in my brain about wet lasting vs dry lasting.
Something that I was thinking about is the direction of stretch- Those of you that dry last, do you cut your vamps so the stretch is side to side or front to back?
Also (mostly directed to Tim),what kind of consistency do you expect out of kid-skin? Except for "nappa" finish, all of the kid-skin I've seen/handled/used is fairly firm, bordering on crispy (even the better quality from Shrut and Ash). You mentioned a while back that you would expect kid-skin to be easy to dry last, but the stuff we have- that would probably be a very bad idea. Thoughts on this?
Erick
Something that I was thinking about is the direction of stretch- Those of you that dry last, do you cut your vamps so the stretch is side to side or front to back?
Also (mostly directed to Tim),what kind of consistency do you expect out of kid-skin? Except for "nappa" finish, all of the kid-skin I've seen/handled/used is fairly firm, bordering on crispy (even the better quality from Shrut and Ash). You mentioned a while back that you would expect kid-skin to be easy to dry last, but the stuff we have- that would probably be a very bad idea. Thoughts on this?
Erick
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Lasting
Dear Erick
Re Dry vs wet lasting. I was always taught to cut the vamp with the stretch front to back. Here on the praries the humidity is almost non existant in the winter to you must mellow the leather to some degree. Depending on the leather good old water in a spray bottle, dampen inside and out ,put them in a plastic bag have lunch and last away. If it is an oil tanned some "leather stretch" sure helps. If you want to avoid discolouration make sure no matter what you use dampen all surfaces. To the pusists leather stretch might be harrisy but it is some times necessary due to the depth of a toe box in Ortho shoes. and only once did the leather stretch effect the finish.
Hope this helps
Brendan
Re Dry vs wet lasting. I was always taught to cut the vamp with the stretch front to back. Here on the praries the humidity is almost non existant in the winter to you must mellow the leather to some degree. Depending on the leather good old water in a spray bottle, dampen inside and out ,put them in a plastic bag have lunch and last away. If it is an oil tanned some "leather stretch" sure helps. If you want to avoid discolouration make sure no matter what you use dampen all surfaces. To the pusists leather stretch might be harrisy but it is some times necessary due to the depth of a toe box in Ortho shoes. and only once did the leather stretch effect the finish.
Hope this helps
Brendan
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
Erick,
I was taught (and haven't seen any reason to change because it makes sense) to cut my leather "tight to toe", that is the stretch goes across the vamp. If you allow the stretch to go along the last, you would probably have trouble with getting two vamps to have the same amount of give.
Kid can be brittle, and quite often is, but not all. I would only use kid on women's shoes, it isn't that strong. You could use it on light men's shoes but calf is better.
Tim
I was taught (and haven't seen any reason to change because it makes sense) to cut my leather "tight to toe", that is the stretch goes across the vamp. If you allow the stretch to go along the last, you would probably have trouble with getting two vamps to have the same amount of give.
Kid can be brittle, and quite often is, but not all. I would only use kid on women's shoes, it isn't that strong. You could use it on light men's shoes but calf is better.
Tim
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Erick,
I cut my vamp stretching front to back as well, my vamp lining the opposite way, stretch across the vamp. The quarters I cut stretch top to bottom, the quarter lining stretch front to back.
I don't change that if I wet last but I mostly dry last. Most of my wet lasting is out of necessity when I can't get it done dry.
When using kid skin I often “soften” the skin before lasting by folding the leather and softening it with my hands. It takes that brittle quality down a notch but I agree with Tim, It's not all that suitable for anything but women's shoes. You can easily get a tear out when lasting. When it's wet I find that I have even less sense of what the leather will do so I avoid wet lasting kid where I can.
Rob
I cut my vamp stretching front to back as well, my vamp lining the opposite way, stretch across the vamp. The quarters I cut stretch top to bottom, the quarter lining stretch front to back.
I don't change that if I wet last but I mostly dry last. Most of my wet lasting is out of necessity when I can't get it done dry.
When using kid skin I often “soften” the skin before lasting by folding the leather and softening it with my hands. It takes that brittle quality down a notch but I agree with Tim, It's not all that suitable for anything but women's shoes. You can easily get a tear out when lasting. When it's wet I find that I have even less sense of what the leather will do so I avoid wet lasting kid where I can.
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
How the heck do you glue (I'm using HirschKleber) side-linings and the counter into a shoe without getting glue all over your hands and the foot side of the lining?
I'm being careful and it isn't much but especially if you have a reversed "inside backstrap" (that's what Golding calls it), it's annoying. And worrisome with regard to cleaning it up after the fact.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I'm being careful and it isn't much but especially if you have a reversed "inside backstrap" (that's what Golding calls it), it's annoying. And worrisome with regard to cleaning it up after the fact.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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romango
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Re: Lasting
DW,
My teachers in Holland used regular all purpose glue and then filed and sanded to feather into the rest of the shoe.
My teachers in Holland used regular all purpose glue and then filed and sanded to feather into the rest of the shoe.
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romango
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Re: Lasting
PS,
It seems to me that Hirschkleber would be too stiff.
There is still some flexing going on here. My impression is we just don't want the side walls to be flaccid.
It seems to me that Hirschkleber would be too stiff.
There is still some flexing going on here. My impression is we just don't want the side walls to be flaccid.
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW, Rick
Are the both of you talking about different things or am I the one that's misunderstanding this?
Hirschkleber has been used for a long time for side linings. I generally use AP but HK will be just fine as well.
Anyhow, you will not get the counter and side linings in without getting any on your hands. If anyone knows of a way I'd be interested. The way I do it is "commit" two fingers of your right hand (if your right handed) to become contaminated.
I apply the HK or other cement to both sides of the counter and the side linings, than take the upper in my left hand and fold the lining through the top of the shoe. Next with two fingers lift and the counter and place it in the shoe. If you can a little higher than were it needs to be since it's easier to pull it down than try to work it back up later. Next you lay in the side linings. They should be tacky enough that they hang on. Wipe off your two fingers that have cement on them and fold back the lining. Now the messy part is contained.
When you start lasting some HK may still spill out but will only get on the insole, not the inside of the shoe. You may want to pull down the counter slightly to get it in just the correct place, use your lasting players for that.
I don't have much at hand to demonstrate and trying to make a quick movie with one hand to hold my camera, one hand to hold the upper and dropping in the counter with my toes did not come out well
.
This picture may show you how I hold the upper when I lay in the counter. This is a high upper and the counter is not prepped but you get the idea.
Hope that answers the question.
Rob
Are the both of you talking about different things or am I the one that's misunderstanding this?
Hirschkleber has been used for a long time for side linings. I generally use AP but HK will be just fine as well.
Anyhow, you will not get the counter and side linings in without getting any on your hands. If anyone knows of a way I'd be interested. The way I do it is "commit" two fingers of your right hand (if your right handed) to become contaminated.
I apply the HK or other cement to both sides of the counter and the side linings, than take the upper in my left hand and fold the lining through the top of the shoe. Next with two fingers lift and the counter and place it in the shoe. If you can a little higher than were it needs to be since it's easier to pull it down than try to work it back up later. Next you lay in the side linings. They should be tacky enough that they hang on. Wipe off your two fingers that have cement on them and fold back the lining. Now the messy part is contained.
When you start lasting some HK may still spill out but will only get on the insole, not the inside of the shoe. You may want to pull down the counter slightly to get it in just the correct place, use your lasting players for that.
I don't have much at hand to demonstrate and trying to make a quick movie with one hand to hold my camera, one hand to hold the upper and dropping in the counter with my toes did not come out well
. This picture may show you how I hold the upper when I lay in the counter. This is a high upper and the counter is not prepped but you get the idea.
Hope that answers the question.
Rob
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lancepryor
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Re: Lasting
DW:
I don't have my notes readily at hand, but the maker I watched used rubber cement to attach the top portion of the side stiffener to the upper. IIRC, he only attached it to the upper, not the lining, and only at the top.
In terms of the counter, I don't think he used any glue at all, but left the counter to float in between the upper and the lining. Since the counter is mounted damp and will dry to the shape of the last, and because it will held tightly in place by the lasting process and then attached to the insole (by whipstitching or pegging), I don't know that it needs to be glued to the lining or the upper. However, I look forward to others' experiences and approaches.
Lance
I don't have my notes readily at hand, but the maker I watched used rubber cement to attach the top portion of the side stiffener to the upper. IIRC, he only attached it to the upper, not the lining, and only at the top.
In terms of the counter, I don't think he used any glue at all, but left the counter to float in between the upper and the lining. Since the counter is mounted damp and will dry to the shape of the last, and because it will held tightly in place by the lasting process and then attached to the insole (by whipstitching or pegging), I don't know that it needs to be glued to the lining or the upper. However, I look forward to others' experiences and approaches.
Lance
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Lance,
No glue or cement at all without sewing in the counter? I have seen lower end factory shoes where the counter has separated from the upper. I have found that those shoes loose their shape much faster. Don't know if the counters were glued to begin with or if the torque the customer puts on the shoes caused the separation. A rubber bottom on those shoes may also have had a negative effect but gosh do I hate it when you pickup a shoe and feel the leather slice independent of the counter.
Just my
.
Rob
No glue or cement at all without sewing in the counter? I have seen lower end factory shoes where the counter has separated from the upper. I have found that those shoes loose their shape much faster. Don't know if the counters were glued to begin with or if the torque the customer puts on the shoes caused the separation. A rubber bottom on those shoes may also have had a negative effect but gosh do I hate it when you pickup a shoe and feel the leather slice independent of the counter.
Just my
. Rob
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lancepryor
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Re: Lasting
Rob:
I certainly could be mistaken -- it's been a few years since my visit, and my memory may be flawed; I'm pretty sure I don't have anything in my notes one way or the other, but I'll have to check when I get back home in a couple of weeks. Perhaps he did slather on some AP before inserting the counter. However, wouldn't you think, with a very heavy veg-tanned counter that is fitted tightly to the last and takes the shape of the last and the insole, where is there for the counter to move, particularly as it is attached to the insole? If the upper is also tightly lasted, can the upper really move relative to the counter?
Lance
I certainly could be mistaken -- it's been a few years since my visit, and my memory may be flawed; I'm pretty sure I don't have anything in my notes one way or the other, but I'll have to check when I get back home in a couple of weeks. Perhaps he did slather on some AP before inserting the counter. However, wouldn't you think, with a very heavy veg-tanned counter that is fitted tightly to the last and takes the shape of the last and the insole, where is there for the counter to move, particularly as it is attached to the insole? If the upper is also tightly lasted, can the upper really move relative to the counter?
Lance
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Lance,
If I had to call it I would relay on your memory more than on my own.
It's not that the counter would not be strong enough, nor can it go anywhere or that the upper wouldn't be tight against it. When you fist start wearing it you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference, it's once worn for a period of time that friction occurs between the layers that are not secured together. More so when a softer calfskin is used. When you pick the shoe up you don't get the firm feeling you would expect around the counter, it feels like your holding on to the upper but the shoe wants to slide away from under it if that makes any sense.
When dealing with a sewn in counter that has no lining covering it that dynamic seems to change some but I would still not hesitate to put a drop of glue in, just in case.
I'm not saying that it's wrong not to use any type of glue or cement, it's just something I don't like doing and something that I personally associate with cheaper made footwear. That's just me and I certainly do not want to offend anyone who does it that way. All I ask is to please prove me wrong, that way I have also learned something new today.
Just my.
Rob
If I had to call it I would relay on your memory more than on my own
. It's not that the counter would not be strong enough, nor can it go anywhere or that the upper wouldn't be tight against it. When you fist start wearing it you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference, it's once worn for a period of time that friction occurs between the layers that are not secured together. More so when a softer calfskin is used. When you pick the shoe up you don't get the firm feeling you would expect around the counter, it feels like your holding on to the upper but the shoe wants to slide away from under it if that makes any sense.
When dealing with a sewn in counter that has no lining covering it that dynamic seems to change some but I would still not hesitate to put a drop of glue in, just in case.
I'm not saying that it's wrong not to use any type of glue or cement, it's just something I don't like doing and something that I personally associate with cheaper made footwear. That's just me and I certainly do not want to offend anyone who does it that way. All I ask is to please prove me wrong, that way I have also learned something new today
. Just my
. Rob
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
How much do you thin down your HirschKleber? Do you go as far as to make it the consistency of AP?
Just Curious.
Rob
How much do you thin down your HirschKleber? Do you go as far as to make it the consistency of AP?
Just Curious.
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Rick, Rob, Lance,
Thanks to all...
Rob, well that's about the way I ended up doing it but it still looks neater in your photo than mine did in actuality. The second one I didn't get as much glue...if any at all...on the lining. So, I guess it's just a matter of experience.
I think I made a mistake in that I positioned and glued the side linings such that they ended up under the counter, though. I don't think it will make a difference but maybe someone can give me a rationale for doing it one way or the other.
BTW, I have seen linings on shoes that were not glued, bunch up a little due to friction and when that happens the lining tends to wear through. It's probably uncomfortable too if the bunching gets pronounced enough. I suppose the quality of the lining has something to do with it and maybe even the direction it's cut. But it seems to me that gluing (or cementing) it is just a bit of insurance--better safe than sorry.
I am placing and shaping the toe boxes separately...I guess it's habit but I don't trust my ability to skive a toe box beforehand such that I am dead certain there will be no lumps or deviations from the lines of the last when the toe box is lasted "blind." Again, I'd rather be safe than sorry but I know I can shape the toe box when it's on the last so that it blends perfectly and invisibly into the lines of the shoe.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Thanks to all...
Rob, well that's about the way I ended up doing it but it still looks neater in your photo than mine did in actuality. The second one I didn't get as much glue...if any at all...on the lining. So, I guess it's just a matter of experience.
I think I made a mistake in that I positioned and glued the side linings such that they ended up under the counter, though. I don't think it will make a difference but maybe someone can give me a rationale for doing it one way or the other.
BTW, I have seen linings on shoes that were not glued, bunch up a little due to friction and when that happens the lining tends to wear through. It's probably uncomfortable too if the bunching gets pronounced enough. I suppose the quality of the lining has something to do with it and maybe even the direction it's cut. But it seems to me that gluing (or cementing) it is just a bit of insurance--better safe than sorry.
I am placing and shaping the toe boxes separately...I guess it's habit but I don't trust my ability to skive a toe box beforehand such that I am dead certain there will be no lumps or deviations from the lines of the last when the toe box is lasted "blind." Again, I'd rather be safe than sorry but I know I can shape the toe box when it's on the last so that it blends perfectly and invisibly into the lines of the shoe.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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lancepryor
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Re: Lasting
Rob:
First of all, your experience is ____ (fill in the blank) times greater than mine, so I certainly would claim no superior knowledge or experience! I can understand that a counter moving inside the upper or giving a feeling of slipperiness would convey a lack of quality.
Perhaps Mack will tell us how he (and the London trade) does the counter and the side lining, rather than me relying on my (faulty?) memory and sketchy notes.
Lance
First of all, your experience is ____ (fill in the blank) times greater than mine, so I certainly would claim no superior knowledge or experience! I can understand that a counter moving inside the upper or giving a feeling of slipperiness would convey a lack of quality.
Perhaps Mack will tell us how he (and the London trade) does the counter and the side lining, rather than me relying on my (faulty?) memory and sketchy notes.
Lance
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Rob,
Yes, that's about the consistency I am looking for. What's your take?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Yes, that's about the consistency I am looking for. What's your take?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Lance,
Thanks for your kind compliment but there are others that definitely have a lot more hands on experience. It may sound like I know what I'm talking about
but I'm rusty when it comes to the execution.
I'm curious what Mack and possible the rest of the West End uses. My guess would be a bone based glue. Just to be clear, that's only a guess.
Rob
Thanks for your kind compliment but there are others that definitely have a lot more hands on experience. It may sound like I know what I'm talking about
but I'm rusty when it comes to the execution. I'm curious what Mack and possible the rest of the West End uses. My guess would be a bone based glue. Just to be clear, that's only a guess.
Rob
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
Not all that sure on HirschKleber as I have not worked with it all that much. I have considered keeping it a little thicker, more like a thin peanut butter paste and apply it with a little spatula or a tongue depressor. I figure that such a consistency would cause less run off and make it less messy to work with and from there thin it down as I go till I feel it's just right.
The picture was just a dry mock up. I had nothing at the appropriate stage so I just used an upper and a pre-cut dry counter. When it's wet and all glued up it should be slightly messier but also easier as the leather won't be as stiff.
I have not had an opportunity to use the HirschKleber I bought last December. The master plan is to make myself a pair of shoes to try it. I may even make one shoe with HK and one with press cement to see what I like best.
The last couple of weeks I have been scanning some fashion forums for inspiration. I did not come across the Jodhpur style but as it has just been brought up in the Patterns topic I may go for a variation on that. Just last weekend I pulled out a pair of lasts to start on for myself. They are still patiently waiting on my bench. At this rate it will be some time before I have to commit to a design. Good thing there is not money to be made on this pair or I would go hungry.
Rob
Not all that sure on HirschKleber as I have not worked with it all that much. I have considered keeping it a little thicker, more like a thin peanut butter paste and apply it with a little spatula or a tongue depressor. I figure that such a consistency would cause less run off and make it less messy to work with and from there thin it down as I go till I feel it's just right.
The picture was just a dry mock up. I had nothing at the appropriate stage so I just used an upper and a pre-cut dry counter. When it's wet and all glued up it should be slightly messier but also easier as the leather won't be as stiff.
I have not had an opportunity to use the HirschKleber I bought last December. The master plan is to make myself a pair of shoes to try it. I may even make one shoe with HK and one with press cement to see what I like best.
The last couple of weeks I have been scanning some fashion forums for inspiration. I did not come across the Jodhpur style but as it has just been brought up in the Patterns topic I may go for a variation on that. Just last weekend I pulled out a pair of lasts to start on for myself. They are still patiently waiting on my bench. At this rate it will be some time before I have to commit to a design. Good thing there is not money to be made on this pair or I would go hungry
. Rob
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mack
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Re: Lasting
All,
At first I found this thread a bit confusing as we seem to use different names for things over here but I've got the drift now.
I dont know of the pastes and glues you mention apart from HK. We have a polymer paste made by Ball Bros and another paste called Metrotex.
I favour Metro but I know fellow makers who use the others with success.I also came across a powder to mix yourself when I visited a grindery shop in Paris,didnt buy it at the time as the instructions were in French but I'm braver now and I will buy it when I visit again.
Lance, I think your memory is playing tricks on you. All the makers I know but paste on both sides of the stiffener (counter),it not only adds some body to the leather but prevents the leather rubbing together which can cause creaking sounds when walking
As for how the sidelinings and toe box are fitted it depends on your method of lasting, front or back first.
I last my lining, mark the position of the toe box,then I fit the sidelining overlapping the edge of the stiffener,securing it with a nail in the insole. Then I stretch it toward the toe and glue the end that goes under the toe box.Then I skive the side lining so it will blend with the toebox and then last the toebox with paste of choice. When dry I prepare the box for lasting putting a little french chalk between lining and top to stop creaking ( this only happens with some leathers )
A couple of makers I know last all the front in one and then the back and I was told this is the traditional English method but I never got on with it and as I was taught by a man from Poland I use the method described earlier .
Regards Mack
PS I've also been using Hirschkleber but only on heel lifts as I feel its too heavy for stiffeners
I need to experiment to thin it maybe..... as so often in this game its trail and error.
At first I found this thread a bit confusing as we seem to use different names for things over here but I've got the drift now.
I dont know of the pastes and glues you mention apart from HK. We have a polymer paste made by Ball Bros and another paste called Metrotex.
I favour Metro but I know fellow makers who use the others with success.I also came across a powder to mix yourself when I visited a grindery shop in Paris,didnt buy it at the time as the instructions were in French but I'm braver now and I will buy it when I visit again.
Lance, I think your memory is playing tricks on you. All the makers I know but paste on both sides of the stiffener (counter),it not only adds some body to the leather but prevents the leather rubbing together which can cause creaking sounds when walking
As for how the sidelinings and toe box are fitted it depends on your method of lasting, front or back first.
I last my lining, mark the position of the toe box,then I fit the sidelining overlapping the edge of the stiffener,securing it with a nail in the insole. Then I stretch it toward the toe and glue the end that goes under the toe box.Then I skive the side lining so it will blend with the toebox and then last the toebox with paste of choice. When dry I prepare the box for lasting putting a little french chalk between lining and top to stop creaking ( this only happens with some leathers )
A couple of makers I know last all the front in one and then the back and I was told this is the traditional English method but I never got on with it and as I was taught by a man from Poland I use the method described earlier .
Regards Mack
PS I've also been using Hirschkleber but only on heel lifts as I feel its too heavy for stiffeners
I need to experiment to thin it maybe..... as so often in this game its trail and error.
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das
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Re: Lasting
On pastes, and Hirschkleber in particular: we experimented with many pastes (natural starch-gluten adhesives, water misable), and settled on one brand of 100% wheat flour wall-paper paste (comes in powder form--mix with cold water), and Hirschkleber (comes as thick paste mixed in a plastic tub). I've read that English shoemakers preferred rye flour pastes historically, and rather than cold-mixing, they'd heat it just to a boil once, to break open the glutens, then use it cold. Anyone experienced with that?
Hirschkleber is nice stuff--I like it. I use it as Mack does for pasting heel-lifts, but also for sticking-in bottom filling, shank-pieces, and basically everywhere an adhesive is wanted for historical styles (before the days of AP, etc.). I do feel it is too thick and stiff as it comes from the tub for ease of working, so I thin mine with water to the desired consistency. The nice thing about it I find is, it re-softens with moisture, then hardens right back up when dry over and over. I've not tried it on inserted side-linings (in fully lined shoes), but would not think twice to do so if it was thinned a bit. In wear, the warmth and moisture from the foot will loosen it a bit, so it's not entirely brittle, allows the leathers to move minimally, then it re-hardens and re-sticks. I tore down a pair for repair last week, and even though the leather had deformed in wear, the Hirschkleber was still hanging on in it's new position--deforming will not break the bond IOW.
For hardening/stiffening heel stiffeners and toe-boxes (puffs), it works a charm as well.
As to clean-up, nothing could be easier I think--just wipe any excess/sloppy bits off with a damp rag while it's still wet.
We've about given up on the wall-paper pastes though, except for very fine, light uppers where staining-through might be an issue. And, thinned to a gruel consistency, it works great for filling the flesh on waxed calf, and burnishing that up to a high gloss.
BTW, Rees admonishes us that too much paste can lead to creaking shoes as well, when it breaks down and leaves "naked" voids where layers can ply and rub together--never had so much as a squeak out of Hirschkleber
Hirschkleber is nice stuff--I like it. I use it as Mack does for pasting heel-lifts, but also for sticking-in bottom filling, shank-pieces, and basically everywhere an adhesive is wanted for historical styles (before the days of AP, etc.). I do feel it is too thick and stiff as it comes from the tub for ease of working, so I thin mine with water to the desired consistency. The nice thing about it I find is, it re-softens with moisture, then hardens right back up when dry over and over. I've not tried it on inserted side-linings (in fully lined shoes), but would not think twice to do so if it was thinned a bit. In wear, the warmth and moisture from the foot will loosen it a bit, so it's not entirely brittle, allows the leathers to move minimally, then it re-hardens and re-sticks. I tore down a pair for repair last week, and even though the leather had deformed in wear, the Hirschkleber was still hanging on in it's new position--deforming will not break the bond IOW.
For hardening/stiffening heel stiffeners and toe-boxes (puffs), it works a charm as well.
As to clean-up, nothing could be easier I think--just wipe any excess/sloppy bits off with a damp rag while it's still wet.
We've about given up on the wall-paper pastes though, except for very fine, light uppers where staining-through might be an issue. And, thinned to a gruel consistency, it works great for filling the flesh on waxed calf, and burnishing that up to a high gloss.
BTW, Rees admonishes us that too much paste can lead to creaking shoes as well, when it breaks down and leaves "naked" voids where layers can ply and rub together--never had so much as a squeak out of Hirschkleber
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Al,
Thanks for that useful information. I should have remembered to ask a historian to comment on historically used pasts. Your observations on the HirshKleber are very useful.
I assume press cement is beyond your period of historical expertise? Curious how it differs in wear from HirshKleber.
Rob
Thanks for that useful information. I should have remembered to ask a historian to comment on historically used pasts
. Your observations on the HirshKleber are very useful. I assume press cement is beyond your period of historical expertise? Curious how it differs in wear from HirshKleber.
Rob
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Mack,
I know how you feel, the different names used for the same thing is very confusing. The all purpose we refer to is a neoprene contact cement, you had probably figured that out already.
I'm curious about the polymer past as well as the Metotex. I tried Googling but didn't get anywhere with that. Can you tell us a little more about them. What is the solvent used in them? Wish I could see, feel and sniff at a sample. It may be something that's just named differently here or something that I like to know about.
The powder mix you saw in Paris, is that a bone based glue? I remember my dad buying bags of chips that would be dissolved into a past. If memory serves there were ground up bones as part of the ingredients. It would come in a clear plastic bag, no labels, warning, disclaimers or any of that. We instinctively knew not to eat it
.
Maybe it's not available anymore as I haven't seen it since I was a little boy pretending to be a shoemaker in my dad's shop
. When he's back from vacation down under I'll ask him!
When you mentioned the power it came back to mind.
Rob
I know how you feel, the different names used for the same thing is very confusing. The all purpose we refer to is a neoprene contact cement, you had probably figured that out already
. I'm curious about the polymer past as well as the Metotex. I tried Googling but didn't get anywhere with that. Can you tell us a little more about them. What is the solvent used in them? Wish I could see, feel and sniff at a sample. It may be something that's just named differently here or something that I like to know about.
The powder mix you saw in Paris, is that a bone based glue? I remember my dad buying bags of chips that would be dissolved into a past. If memory serves there were ground up bones as part of the ingredients. It would come in a clear plastic bag, no labels, warning, disclaimers or any of that. We instinctively knew not to eat it
. Maybe it's not available anymore as I haven't seen it since I was a little boy pretending to be a shoemaker in my dad's shop
. When he's back from vacation down under I'll ask him! When you mentioned the power it came back to mind.
Rob
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mack
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- Full Name: Jim McCormack
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Re: Lasting
Rob,
I dont know what the powder mix was. There were some instructions on the bag ,in French unfortunately so I couldn't understand them.Next time I'm in Paris I will buy some and get it translated.I visited a couple of french bespoke makers also and the work I saw was very good.
I've no idea what is in Metrotex.It reminds me of a very thick wallpaper paste but adding water to it seems to spoil it so there must be an unknown ingredient in it. The polymer paste is like thick cream and has a chemical smell to it
when it dries it forms a skin which is flexible
As I said I prefer Metro but I use the other as well, depends on the material really.
I only have access to this forum from home but when I'm in the workshop I'll look at the jars and see if there is any mention of ingredients
Regards Mack.
I dont know what the powder mix was. There were some instructions on the bag ,in French unfortunately so I couldn't understand them.Next time I'm in Paris I will buy some and get it translated.I visited a couple of french bespoke makers also and the work I saw was very good.
I've no idea what is in Metrotex.It reminds me of a very thick wallpaper paste but adding water to it seems to spoil it so there must be an unknown ingredient in it. The polymer paste is like thick cream and has a chemical smell to it
when it dries it forms a skin which is flexible
As I said I prefer Metro but I use the other as well, depends on the material really.
I only have access to this forum from home but when I'm in the workshop I'll look at the jars and see if there is any mention of ingredients
Regards Mack.
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das
- Seanchaidh
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- Been Liked: 142 times
Re: Lasting
Rob,
Ah, thank you... It's nice to feel appreciated.
I learned of press cement from DW, and have most of the gallon can I bought umpteen years ago at his suggestion. I've only ever used it for hardening toe-boxes. Seems to me that as a brittle cellulose cement, it'll crack before it yields, so I'd never try it for side linings or anything but adding stiffness. As to it's adhesive power/quality, I have no idea.
Ah, thank you... It's nice to feel appreciated.
I learned of press cement from DW, and have most of the gallon can I bought umpteen years ago at his suggestion. I've only ever used it for hardening toe-boxes. Seems to me that as a brittle cellulose cement, it'll crack before it yields, so I'd never try it for side linings or anything but adding stiffness. As to it's adhesive power/quality, I have no idea.