sewing machines

[romango]

Ahhh! I see. Yes that liquid reference snuck by me.
Is one of those strippers for waxing the bobbin thread as you wind it on to the bobbin?

[dw]

Yes. Only technically it's not for "waxing the bobbin thread" but for "stripping" excess wax off the thread as the bobbin is being wound.

Similarly, the other stripper is for stripping excess wax off the "working" thread as you are stitching.

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[jesselee]

All

I just was looking at a Pedersen stitcher on ebay. Is this the portable sole stitcher mentioned a while back? If so, does it have a feed dog and can you get or make needles? Or if it is not for soles, what is it's application.
JesseLee

[romango]

DW,

I got the Sellari's liquid wax and thinner at Oregon Leather but they only have linen and polyester thread. What is your source for Bulldog Thread? Is this Dacron?

[dw]

Polyester=dacron. Same/same. Bulldog is just a brand...I don't know if they carry it anymore.

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[dw]

All,

I'm interested in getting some feedback with regard to sewing machines suitable for making shoes. I have a 136class post machine but I am not wholly happy with it. I have not really sat down with it to try to work out it's problems but I am wondering if it is not a little dated--if there isn't some machine out there that is more flexible and yet more controllable.

Beyond that I have seen (and used on rare occasions) arm machines and been told that they were "vamping" machines.

Obviously a post machine is more versitile but an arm machine might be more "steady."

Is there any one who has, or has used, both? What are the strengths and limitations of each? What is a good number/model/class for the arm machine?

Any input would be welcome....

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[romango]

I haven't used both but the Pfaff 491 is a very nice post machine. It's not fair to compare to yours in it's non-working condition. But, after using yours a bit, I was longing for home

[dw]

Rick,

Where did you get your 491? And what did you pay for it?

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[romango]

I got it from Pilgrim. It's one of the first things I ever bought for shoemaking and I can't put my hand on the receipt. But I think it was $1,200 or more (ouch!).

[bill_harris]

DW,

This is a picture of a small table that lets me use my Singer 136W103 post machine for flat sewing.

5438.jpg

Bill Harris

[dw]

Bill,

That's a really good idea.

I used to have a similar setup for my 51(?) class Singer. Seems to me it even had a couple of clips on the head to allow a commercially made table to fit around it. (could be I'm thinking about a different machine, too)

I have a couple of good flat bed machines, so I'm not looking to use it that way. But I get some random skipping with it that I have almost eliminated since Rick was in shop but not completely if the machine is being used by anyone else but me.

I just feel if I am going to start making men's shoes (and I am) I need a reliable machine for stitching in three dimensions.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on September 11, 2007)

[lancepryor]

DW:

I have a Pfaff 491 that I picked up on e-bay for around $250 (!), though I haven't yet had time to set it up or try it out. I have been using a 51-class post-bed which is more-or-less functional but not great. The Pfaff post-beds don't show up very often on e-bay -- I think only 2 or 3 in the last year. Rob Elferink has been very complimentary about the quality of the Pfaffs. Note that the 491 does take a different table top, not the standard cut-out.

FWIW, the 'maker' I spent time with in London was learning closing and was using a cylinder bed machine rather than a post-bed.

You could also check out Miami Sewing (http://www.miamisewing.com/specials/canvas.htm ), which has a variety of post-bed machines by Pfaff and others -- can't comment on their quality.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

What deal!! I talked to Mr Kay at Melanie machine today. He actually likes the 136 better than the pfaff--he didn't have anything bad, specifically to say about the Pfaff, just thought the Singer was a little simpler machine. I told him that I was coming his way come November and he urged me to bring my Singer down and he'd give it a tune up. Also mentioned that he had a servo motor--Is that the kind that will do one stitch at a time...Rick? isn't that what you have?--and I'll probably pick one up while I'm there.

I really like the way your London maker closed the Oxford you sent me, Lance. I have some others that another friend sent and they are also from one of the better known bespoke makers in London. But the way your guy closed these is really straight forward and elegant. I think it may be the easiest method I have seen...and I haven't seen too many.

I always thought you could close with a cylinder arm machine. Mr. Kay said the post machine was better by a long shot but I've known others who used a cylinder. I was a bit worried how a person would be limited with an arm machine but if your teacher can do the clean work he did on a cylinder arm machine, I think it could do near about anything...on a shoe.

That said, there's some parts of boots and packers a cylinder arm might have trouble with and it dern sure couldn't sew the backstraps on a hollywood style boot. So if I can get my Singer 136 cooking or trade it in for a Pfaff, I think I'll be happy.

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[lancepryor]

DW:

Just to clarify -- the closer in London whose upper I sent you does his closing on Singer post-bed machines -- either 136 or 236, I can't recall which off the top of my head. He's been at it for something like 40 years, and he is so fast it was amazing to me. Seems like it is just zip, zip, zip, done! Maybe an hour and a half per pair to click, skive, punch, gimp, sew the upper, sew the lining, and close the shoe. Makes it look like a piece of cake.....

The guy with the cylinder bed machine is in fact a 'maker' who works for a number of the London firms but has been learning to close on the side.

The servo motors allow you to slow down the motor to almost any speed; also, I guess they don't run continuously like a clutch motor and are thus much more efficient, and also quiet. I'll probably pick one up as well, since the industrial machines are tough to control and get away from me pretty easily. FWIW, I think there are a couple of different ones on the market, one of which is easier to change the speed, I believe. You might want to check on e-bay, b/c I think the differences are described by at least one of the sellers.

Lance

[mmboots]

DW,

I picked up a Pfaff 491 the frist of the year. It is without any dought the best machine that I have used. When I started making boots again I tried the the class 51 machine and did not like it at all. I really like the pfaff for its feed system(top roller,bottom roller and neddle feed). I have no trouble sewing all weights of boot leatheter on it and shoes. Changing sticth lenght is a snapp. I got it off of E-bay for 790.00 with table and motor and lamb. It came out of Canada from Ralph Sewing. They had gone over it with a fine tooth comb and made saure it was ready to go. They have some machine on e-bay right now. Just e-mail them and ask if they have any 491. I did and week later it was on e-bay. They wanted 1,000 dollars for it when I made the request. Hope this helps.

Mike

[bjohnsonleather]

DW,
Finally something I can respond, besides being grateful for you referring me to Melanie and Arnold Kay for my bell knife skiver.
I have two different servo motors. On my cylinder arm I have a servo motor without a rheostat dial. Much more control at slow speeds than a clutchmotor, and still a decent top end for straight runs. I had previously replaced the clutchmotor on my Adler 205 with the same type servo motor. Would not go back.
I bought a 1245 and got a servo motor with it. This servo has a rheostat type dial control. The dial controls the high end speed, the foot pedal controls the range. I can slow it down to a single stitch almost every 4-5 seconds, or dial it up to run away. The speed reducer on this machine is probably pretty redundant.
I am not a motor mechanic, but a few observations. The servos make no noise, you have to visually make sure they are off. They have the same punch power on molasses slow or smoking fast. Not like the clutchmotor you have to sometimes help on heavy leathers on slow. I have been told by their nature the torque is constant through all the speeds. They also tend to stop pretty dead, no "run-on" for a couple stitches when you let off. If you are used to handwheeling a lot around corners or to feather to slow down, the servos will toss your hand off the wheel. They have torque. For the ultimate control, the rheostat servos are the best in my hands.

[dw]

Mike,

How many stitch lengths does the Pfaff 491 have? My Singer 136 only has three.

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[dw]

Lance,

Ah, that does clarify things. I haven't seen the work of the guy with the cylinder arm machine but I sure like and appreciate what the London closer who uses the 136 did. It's clean work. He stitches the vamps to the quarters with one line. Then on the second line to about an inch shy of the vamp point, picks up again an inch on the other side of the vamp point and finishes stitching the vamp to the quarters. Then he mounts the fully assembled linings and stitches that two inch section on the vamp through both the upper and the quarters. I can hardly see where he begins and ends. I see it on the underside, though...that's the only way I'd twig to the sequence.

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[dw]

Bruce,

Thanks for the good info. Now you've got me worried. For 35 years I've been a hand-wheeling guy. If I can't control the speed of the machine with my hand on the flywheel, I don't know what I'll do. I like the idea of being able to slow way down and I guess I'd get used to it but I'd have to train my muscles all over again and rewire my nerves to control with my foot and not my hand. Makes me nervous just thinking about it.

Has anyone tried mounting a quarter inch round leather drive belt on a servo motor so you can create some slippage if you need to?

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[dw]

Oops, meant to ask...has anyone else made that same transition--from years of handwheel control to servo motor?

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[bjohnsonleather]

DW,
Not to say you can't handwheel with the servos, but it is a different feel. With the clutch motors, I could be zipping along pretty well, and then just reach up and grab it to catch it going into a corner or coming to an end. The servos will be tougher to grab and stop. On the up side, they have more control, so I did have to relearn that I didn't need to grab them anyway. Just like the clutch motors, for really fine control, I can lightly feather the pedal and handwheel every stitch if necessary for inlays or following more intricate patterns. It is a lighter touch on the pedal to handwheel than a comparable clutch motor for me. I can also tap the pedal for stitch at a time, that the clutch motor was less than reliable it would cycle enough to make a stitch.

[mmboots]

DW,

I'll give you a call when I get to the shop. That way I can make sure of the number. I know it's a lot.

Mike

[romango]

My 491 does not have a servo but the motor is not original. It was supplied by Pilgrim. Here is the stitch length adjuster. Good thing to think about with this machine. The smallest stitch I can get is 11/inch.

5442.jpg

[dw]

Rick,

Mr. Kay told me that there were interchangeable gears in the Pfaff 491--just like on the 136--and another maker told me that he could set his so that it hardly moved at all...similar to the "infinitely small" setting on the 31 class flatbed.

So, maybe there is a part or a gear set (like on the 136) that can be replaced to give you a range that favors the small end rather than the large.

I don't think I could live with only 11spi on an upper machine. I think I get 22spi on my finest setting on the 136.

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[dw]

Bruce,

That's interesting. Thank you. I will add that to my "what-to-look-out-for-and-try" when I go down to LA.

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