Joel,
Generally the side linings go in once you have lasted the back and then peel back the upper before you last the upper. You make the side lining long enough to go from behind the joint to underneath the toe puff. Use dabs of glue and fit it wet.
The side lining goes over the feather edge a bit to make sure it holds.
No you don't need to glue your lining to your upper. When did you think it was necessary to do that?
Tim
Lasting
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j1a2g3
Re: Lasting
Tim
Laszlo Vass has pictures of the side reinforcement, toe box and heel counter going in before he lasted the shoe in his book. It looked to me like he glued them in before he lasted. I coulcn't find any other reference to this technique in any other book I have.
As for the glueing of the lining to the upper, I was just wondering what keeps the two leathers in place after lasting. It seems to me that the lining and upper leather are two totally different materials and would move and stretch in different directions and at different amounts,
Also, glueing them together would stiffener the shoe, no??
Joel
Laszlo Vass has pictures of the side reinforcement, toe box and heel counter going in before he lasted the shoe in his book. It looked to me like he glued them in before he lasted. I coulcn't find any other reference to this technique in any other book I have.
As for the glueing of the lining to the upper, I was just wondering what keeps the two leathers in place after lasting. It seems to me that the lining and upper leather are two totally different materials and would move and stretch in different directions and at different amounts,
Also, glueing them together would stiffener the shoe, no??
Joel
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
Joel,
Vass has the side linings on the upper material, I only ever put it on the lining, but I don't think it makes a difference really. You can glue the side linings on the lining before lasting if you want to.
I am going on memory here as I have no tools to check with.
You don't glue the linings to the upper when lasting normally so you don't have to glue the side linings to both sides either.
Both leathers hold their shapes due to the lines of tension (transverse and longitudinal) which you set up during lasting. Leave the shoe on the last for at least 24 hrs for this to really work and your shoe will retain it's shape longer than any store bought ones.
Tim
Vass has the side linings on the upper material, I only ever put it on the lining, but I don't think it makes a difference really. You can glue the side linings on the lining before lasting if you want to.
I am going on memory here as I have no tools to check with.
You don't glue the linings to the upper when lasting normally so you don't have to glue the side linings to both sides either.
Both leathers hold their shapes due to the lines of tension (transverse and longitudinal) which you set up during lasting. Leave the shoe on the last for at least 24 hrs for this to really work and your shoe will retain it's shape longer than any store bought ones.
Tim
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paul
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Re: Lasting
DW,
I think I might have asked this question in the past, but a little differently. It has to do with heel height and the quarter curve cut.
I'm making a pair of 2 1/4" heel height buckaroos. The tops lean forward on the fitter.
I cut the curve using the notch on your template, but understanding this seems to be eluding me, as several pair recently have been showing a forward lean.
Could you please straighten me out? (I'll straighten the boots out.)
Thank you,
Paul
I think I might have asked this question in the past, but a little differently. It has to do with heel height and the quarter curve cut.
I'm making a pair of 2 1/4" heel height buckaroos. The tops lean forward on the fitter.
I cut the curve using the notch on your template, but understanding this seems to be eluding me, as several pair recently have been showing a forward lean.
Could you please straighten me out? (I'll straighten the boots out.)
Thank you,
Paul
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paul
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Re: Lasting
DW,
I think I might have asked this question in the past, but a little differently. It has to do with heel height and the quarter curve cut.
I'm making a pair of 2 1/4" heel height buckaroos. The tops lean forward on the fitter.
I cut the curve using the notch on your template, but understanding this seems to be eluding me, as several pair recently have been showing a forward lean.
Could you please straighten me out? (I'll straighten the boots out.)
Thank you,
Paul
I think I might have asked this question in the past, but a little differently. It has to do with heel height and the quarter curve cut.
I'm making a pair of 2 1/4" heel height buckaroos. The tops lean forward on the fitter.
I cut the curve using the notch on your template, but understanding this seems to be eluding me, as several pair recently have been showing a forward lean.
Could you please straighten me out? (I'll straighten the boots out.)
Thank you,
Paul
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marcell
Re: Lasting
Joel,
I just read your question about side-linings. Laszlo Vass is Hungarian - just like me - so, most probably we got the same education, and learnt the same traditional methods.
We don't glue the linings so munch (just a few drops, not to slip away from its place. Normally we put everything into the upper before lasting (except in the goyser method).
Traditionally we leave the upper on the last at least 7 days. (I prefer more)
I just read your question about side-linings. Laszlo Vass is Hungarian - just like me - so, most probably we got the same education, and learnt the same traditional methods.
We don't glue the linings so munch (just a few drops, not to slip away from its place. Normally we put everything into the upper before lasting (except in the goyser method).
Traditionally we leave the upper on the last at least 7 days. (I prefer more)
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Paul,
Well, Luchesse said that all boots lean forward a little.
But be that as it may, I see this sometimes particularly with high heeled lasts, myownself. It could indicate a throat that is too wide for the last. It could indicate a last with a very pronounced degree in the heel.
All things being equal, you can tree it out (as you suggested) and be none the worse esthetically. Functionally a boot that leans forward is better than one that leans back, for the simple reason that it is, by default, drawing the heel stiffener in towards the last.
My own feeling is that it is a combination of the degree in the last and the way the heel draft is cut. Cut the heel draft deeper the next time, say, three-quarter inch. Theoretically, this should draw the top down and back a little without affecting the heel stiffener.
I would be interested in knowing the results of that experiment.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, Luchesse said that all boots lean forward a little.
But be that as it may, I see this sometimes particularly with high heeled lasts, myownself. It could indicate a throat that is too wide for the last. It could indicate a last with a very pronounced degree in the heel. All things being equal, you can tree it out (as you suggested) and be none the worse esthetically. Functionally a boot that leans forward is better than one that leans back, for the simple reason that it is, by default, drawing the heel stiffener in towards the last.
My own feeling is that it is a combination of the degree in the last and the way the heel draft is cut. Cut the heel draft deeper the next time, say, three-quarter inch. Theoretically, this should draw the top down and back a little without affecting the heel stiffener.
I would be interested in knowing the results of that experiment.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
The midlining questions are more applicable to lasting so I moved the answer here. After folding back the upper and placing the counter and toebox I add the midlinings. Skive carefully as Tim indicated. Next I rough the grain of the midlining, glue tot he lining grain side to the last with all purpose cement. Overlap the toebox by about ¼ inch.
If you have a naumkeag it comes in handy here to create a very smooth transition. Without the naumkeag you can just sand it down a little by hand. No need to cement the midlining to the upper.
When considering the type of leather you have a lot of options. Due to the size and the fact that it will never be seen, you use a piece of scrap. With kidskin you should be careful not to use a leather that's to heavy or it will show through in the shoe. I usually try to use a piece of the same leather I use for the vamp or the lining leather, whichever will hold it's shape better.
If it were me I would put the midliners in this pair, if nothing else it will be good practice. The fist time things may not be perfect so with the practice the next one may come out just right.
Than again, with the treadline still "up in the air", functional they may not do you much good. From that perspective it may be more trouble than it's worth.
It just depends on how you look at it.
Rob
The midlining questions are more applicable to lasting so I moved the answer here. After folding back the upper and placing the counter and toebox I add the midlinings. Skive carefully as Tim indicated. Next I rough the grain of the midlining, glue tot he lining grain side to the last with all purpose cement. Overlap the toebox by about ¼ inch.
If you have a naumkeag it comes in handy here to create a very smooth transition. Without the naumkeag you can just sand it down a little by hand. No need to cement the midlining to the upper.
When considering the type of leather you have a lot of options. Due to the size and the fact that it will never be seen, you use a piece of scrap. With kidskin you should be careful not to use a leather that's to heavy or it will show through in the shoe. I usually try to use a piece of the same leather I use for the vamp or the lining leather, whichever will hold it's shape better.
If it were me I would put the midliners in this pair, if nothing else it will be good practice. The fist time things may not be perfect so with the practice the next one may come out just right.
Than again, with the treadline still "up in the air", functional they may not do you much good. From that perspective it may be more trouble than it's worth.
It just depends on how you look at it.
Rob
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Paul, DW,
Running the risk of making a fool of myself since I know close to nothing about boots, I would think pulling it further down in the back will straighten the leg.
Sounds to easy to be true, right?
Just for my own curiosity would anyone please try to explain why this is not the correct answer.
(or by the off chance that it is a correct answer, give my ego a boost
)
Rob
Running the risk of making a fool of myself since I know close to nothing about boots, I would think pulling it further down in the back will straighten the leg.
Sounds to easy to be true, right?
Just for my own curiosity would anyone please try to explain why this is not the correct answer.
(or by the off chance that it is a correct answer, give my ego a boost
) Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Robert,
Counter/heel stiffeners on traditional western boots are not independent of the tops. Neither are the linings hung. So, pulling down the back, pulls down the heel stiffener. Perhaps...more than likely...below the counterpoint. Also, pulling it down like that would tend to "open" the counter up at the top edge...resulting in reduced, if not zero, cupping of the last/heel.
Increasing the heel draft, as I suggested to Paul, does something similar to what you're trying to achieve, however...it just does it in the patterns and before everything is assembled and in a fixed position.
Hope that explanation is clear enough to make sense....
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Counter/heel stiffeners on traditional western boots are not independent of the tops. Neither are the linings hung. So, pulling down the back, pulls down the heel stiffener. Perhaps...more than likely...below the counterpoint. Also, pulling it down like that would tend to "open" the counter up at the top edge...resulting in reduced, if not zero, cupping of the last/heel.
Increasing the heel draft, as I suggested to Paul, does something similar to what you're trying to achieve, however...it just does it in the patterns and before everything is assembled and in a fixed position.
Hope that explanation is clear enough to make sense....
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
Thanks, that does make sense. I was only thinking in terms of position of the top, not accounting for the heel counter.
Rob
Thanks, that does make sense. I was only thinking in terms of position of the top, not accounting for the heel counter.
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
A question for shoemakers...I have noticed (and known for a long time) that when shoes are lasted, very often the maker will drive a tack into the top of the heel/heel stiffener to hold the topline in place. I hate that idea.
Why is that necessary? How do you avoid making a hole in the upper? And is there anyway to get around doing that?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Why is that necessary? How do you avoid making a hole in the upper? And is there anyway to get around doing that?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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marcell
Re: Lasting
Dear DW,
If you take a look to my videos - I don't do that, because I also hate the hole there.
2 ideas to avoid this:
1. make the lasting the same way, than me on the video - you won't need the tack there. (if the upper pattern is perfect)
2. If you really need to fix the heel, use a thin, rustproof one. it is much easier to take away the holes.
Marcell
If you take a look to my videos - I don't do that, because I also hate the hole there.
2 ideas to avoid this:
1. make the lasting the same way, than me on the video - you won't need the tack there. (if the upper pattern is perfect)
2. If you really need to fix the heel, use a thin, rustproof one. it is much easier to take away the holes.
Marcell
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
DW,
If you hammer the leather once you have taken out the tack then mostly the hole will close up a lot. Without the nail there is always a chance that the back will pull down during lasting. Constant attention may avoid this but sometimes it is too late.
Tim
If you hammer the leather once you have taken out the tack then mostly the hole will close up a lot. Without the nail there is always a chance that the back will pull down during lasting. Constant attention may avoid this but sometimes it is too late.
Tim
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dw
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Re: Lasting
A thought just occured to me...why couldn't you leave a little tab of lining untrimmed at the back of the heel and tack that? Then when everything was dry and set, you could trim it off right there on the last...?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
That's what I like to do and for a little extra strength I leave the back seam tape longer, sticking out the top so the nail will catch it. In fact, on my patterns I leave the lining in the back higher than the standard 4 mm to give me a little more material to tack down.
Once nailed to the last I cover it with a couple of layers of paper tape. When folding back the upper it won't get stretched up on the nail. If you're not planning on folding back the lining to place your counter you don't need to do that.
Sounds like we should start planning the “induction ceremony” for this new shoemaker, used to be bootmaker.
Do we have any volunteers to administer the induction ritual?
Rob
A thought just occurred to me...why couldn't you leave a little tab of lining untrimmed at the back of the heel and tack that?
That's what I like to do and for a little extra strength I leave the back seam tape longer, sticking out the top so the nail will catch it. In fact, on my patterns I leave the lining in the back higher than the standard 4 mm to give me a little more material to tack down.
Once nailed to the last I cover it with a couple of layers of paper tape. When folding back the upper it won't get stretched up on the nail. If you're not planning on folding back the lining to place your counter you don't need to do that.
Sounds like we should start planning the “induction ceremony” for this new shoemaker, used to be bootmaker.
Do we have any volunteers to administer the induction ritual?
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Rob,
I think I am going to use an inside backstrap. I will leave that long and use it to tack to the last. I am wet forming a piece of the lining to the back of the last so that I can cut it and add it to the quarter linings without changing the quarter lining backcurve. I know it can be done flat but I may not be ready for that.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I think I am going to use an inside backstrap. I will leave that long and use it to tack to the last. I am wet forming a piece of the lining to the back of the last so that I can cut it and add it to the quarter linings without changing the quarter lining backcurve. I know it can be done flat but I may not be ready for that.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
DW,
There is probably no problem with leaving the lining proud and tacking it. You have to do that with court shoe linings anyway. Just watch that the lining doesn't stretch when you pull down at the back and you should be fine.
Are you anticipating attaching the inside backstrap to the lining or the upper? It sounds as though you are planning on putting it on the lining from the above post. It is normally put on the backseam of the upper. Just glue it in place and force it onto the upper to take out the wrinkles and it should be fine.
Rob, Given a bit of time I am sure we can come up with a suitable induction ceremony but I am not sure that DW would enjoy it as much as us.
Tim
There is probably no problem with leaving the lining proud and tacking it. You have to do that with court shoe linings anyway. Just watch that the lining doesn't stretch when you pull down at the back and you should be fine.
Are you anticipating attaching the inside backstrap to the lining or the upper? It sounds as though you are planning on putting it on the lining from the above post. It is normally put on the backseam of the upper. Just glue it in place and force it onto the upper to take out the wrinkles and it should be fine.
Rob, Given a bit of time I am sure we can come up with a suitable induction ceremony but I am not sure that DW would enjoy it as much as us.
Tim
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Tim,
Do you think we should start selling tickets to the induction ceremony? With the speed DW is tackling this shoe thing we better get going with the planning.
I would like to think that DW is not going to enjoy it as much as we will, how else can we get him to think twice before starting on a Derby?
DW, are you “crimping” both quarter or just the turned counter lining that has the flesh side to the foot?
I've never crimped my lining like that so I'm not sure what you are going to run into. A point of caution; if you set up your pasterns based on the mean forme system you take off material in the back to get a tight enough fit and create a difference between lining and upper to account for the counter thickness. It this diagram you can see that at the bottom of your pattern you take off as much as 5 MM both medial and lateral (10 mm total). Not sure how you would figure out how much to take off when you crimp the lining.
Maybe you don't have to worry about it since you “pre-set” the lining as compared to setting up the construction and anticipate a certain amount of give.
Let us know how the “crimping” works out for you.
Rob
Do you think we should start selling tickets to the induction ceremony? With the speed DW is tackling this shoe thing we better get going with the planning.
I would like to think that DW is not going to enjoy it as much as we will, how else can we get him to think twice before starting on a Derby?
DW, are you “crimping” both quarter or just the turned counter lining that has the flesh side to the foot?
I've never crimped my lining like that so I'm not sure what you are going to run into. A point of caution; if you set up your pasterns based on the mean forme system you take off material in the back to get a tight enough fit and create a difference between lining and upper to account for the counter thickness. It this diagram you can see that at the bottom of your pattern you take off as much as 5 MM both medial and lateral (10 mm total). Not sure how you would figure out how much to take off when you crimp the lining.
Maybe you don't have to worry about it since you “pre-set” the lining as compared to setting up the construction and anticipate a certain amount of give.
Let us know how the “crimping” works out for you.
Rob
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Rob,
What I did, was design my quarter linings just as you have in the diagram. I was going to use it just like that. Then, thinking about the double seam (one right on top of the other) I decided to put in what Golding calls an "inside backstrap." He doesn't call for it to be fleshside out and it is only a little more than an inch wide at the top line...maybe two inches wide down by the insole. I never thought about putting it fleshside out...Golding is what I had and I went with that.
In any case...I cut a piece of lining leather about six inches long and about three and a half inches wide. I wet it, and pulled it around the back of the last, tacking on each end. When it was dry, I drew a centerline down the back and marked the heel seat position. (Roughly where you're taking off 5mm in the diagram.) Then I pulled all the tack and took it off the last.
I folded the piece along the back center line...and because it had been stretched over the heel curve of the last, the fold line was also curved--very similarly to the curve at the back of the diagram.
I lined up the heel seat mark and the curve with the corresponding curve and point of the quarterlining pattern and from there it was easy to draft the width of the inside backstrap and transfer that to the quarterlining pattern. Add a lap allowance and voila! when I sew it together I will have the quarter linings the same shape and size as if I had cut them according to your diagram and closed them along the back curve.
Make sense?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
What I did, was design my quarter linings just as you have in the diagram. I was going to use it just like that. Then, thinking about the double seam (one right on top of the other) I decided to put in what Golding calls an "inside backstrap." He doesn't call for it to be fleshside out and it is only a little more than an inch wide at the top line...maybe two inches wide down by the insole. I never thought about putting it fleshside out...Golding is what I had and I went with that.
In any case...I cut a piece of lining leather about six inches long and about three and a half inches wide. I wet it, and pulled it around the back of the last, tacking on each end. When it was dry, I drew a centerline down the back and marked the heel seat position. (Roughly where you're taking off 5mm in the diagram.) Then I pulled all the tack and took it off the last.
I folded the piece along the back center line...and because it had been stretched over the heel curve of the last, the fold line was also curved--very similarly to the curve at the back of the diagram.
I lined up the heel seat mark and the curve with the corresponding curve and point of the quarterlining pattern and from there it was easy to draft the width of the inside backstrap and transfer that to the quarterlining pattern. Add a lap allowance and voila! when I sew it together I will have the quarter linings the same shape and size as if I had cut them according to your diagram and closed them along the back curve.
Make sense?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
DW,
Can you post a picture of this crimping? I can't work out what you are doing and it interests me. It must be irrelevant as Rob also has a problem with it.
To fit a lining properly at the back it needs to come in 2mm at the topline, 5mm about halfway down and 7mm at the bottom edge.
Is this message out of sequence somewhere?
Tim
Can you post a picture of this crimping? I can't work out what you are doing and it interests me. It must be irrelevant as Rob also has a problem with it.
To fit a lining properly at the back it needs to come in 2mm at the topline, 5mm about halfway down and 7mm at the bottom edge.
Is this message out of sequence somewhere?
Tim
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relferink
Re: Lasting
DW,
Bear with me as I'm trying to envisioning what you did.
Would it be OK to move my reply to “Pattern making” as it seems more appropriate there?
Rob
(Message edited by relferink on August 18, 2007)
Bear with me as I'm trying to envisioning what you did.
Would it be OK to move my reply to “Pattern making” as it seems more appropriate there?
Rob
(Message edited by relferink on August 18, 2007)
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paul
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Re: Lasting
DW
First of all, I appreciated the reminder last week of what ol' Sam said, that all boots lean forward some. That's good.
And I appreciated the suggestion to cut the heel draft a little deeper. That's what I've done and I've made a note on my templte. Here is the result of that experiment.
Beside fixing the problem of the uprightness of the tops, it also dropped the throat in closer to where it was supposed to be. It was too open in the first model.
Spider gave me some input also, which I appreciated, and I understand that this is a challenge with the higher tops. He makes some that go way way up there!
These will be 17" and the tallest I've made so far. Thanks to your help, it's gonna be just fine. I'll post pictures.
Back to practicin',
PK
First of all, I appreciated the reminder last week of what ol' Sam said, that all boots lean forward some. That's good.
And I appreciated the suggestion to cut the heel draft a little deeper. That's what I've done and I've made a note on my templte. Here is the result of that experiment.
Beside fixing the problem of the uprightness of the tops, it also dropped the throat in closer to where it was supposed to be. It was too open in the first model.
Spider gave me some input also, which I appreciated, and I understand that this is a challenge with the higher tops. He makes some that go way way up there!
These will be 17" and the tallest I've made so far. Thanks to your help, it's gonna be just fine. I'll post pictures.
Back to practicin',
PK
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Paul,
Well, if you...and Spyder...don't mind, what was the advice he gave you? I'd be interested in anything that would further my understanding of how to adjust the tops.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, if you...and Spyder...don't mind, what was the advice he gave you? I'd be interested in anything that would further my understanding of how to adjust the tops.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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paul
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Re: Lasting
Well,
I only wanted to make one change at a time, so I went with your advise, as yours is the system and patterns I use. I didn't want to confuse myself. All to easy to do. And as you can see, your remedy worked.
One other thing we talked about, and Spider please excuse me, had actually occurred to me as I was chewing over the quandary myownself. And that was to raise the back tongue some. I don't know if, why or how that might have helped, but it was a thought. The other involved a different cut at the side seam in the counter area.
I'm relieved that a deeper cut in the quarter curve worked, because I gotta get these done, and he's comin' to try his fitters on Friday.
Tall Paul
I only wanted to make one change at a time, so I went with your advise, as yours is the system and patterns I use. I didn't want to confuse myself. All to easy to do. And as you can see, your remedy worked.
One other thing we talked about, and Spider please excuse me, had actually occurred to me as I was chewing over the quandary myownself. And that was to raise the back tongue some. I don't know if, why or how that might have helped, but it was a thought. The other involved a different cut at the side seam in the counter area.
I'm relieved that a deeper cut in the quarter curve worked, because I gotta get these done, and he's comin' to try his fitters on Friday.
Tall Paul