Seeking knowledge or survey

[dw]

Adhesives: I am wondering what people are using for really oily leather. I've been using a water based neoprene that is advertised to work on oily leather but for one reason or another--the leather is too oily, or the cement too old--it's not working very well.

Anyone got any ideas?

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[jesselee]

DW

A few years back I got some oily leather, tanning process I think. Great hides and soles. No glue would stick to it at all. I must have run 100 demos to find a solution. Finally I soaked the soles and hides in kerosene and then did a lot of soaking in warm soapy water with diluter Ivory soap. They came out oil free and really durable and barge was the answer. Tedious I know, just an experience to share. I got the stuff for pennies on the dollar so it was worth it.
Jesse

[dw]

Jesse Lee,

Sound like you not only got a deal but came up with a good solution.

However, I want this leather to be oily...or, at least the customer does. All I need to do is mount a crimped vamp on the tops and hve it hold securely, long enough to get one line of stitching on it.

Once I get the tops assembled, I'll be OK...I hope.

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[jesselee]

DW

My solution would be to use alchohol or kerosene (which is oily, yet takes oil out of leather) on the area to be glued ie. side seams, bottoms. Any area thats left dry can be reoiled with lanolin or neetsfoot oil. Hope I am catching what you want to do. Crimping using that extra leather piece which is glued and stitched, right?
Jesse

[tomo]

Dw,
can you tack them... just using the fine tacks onto a piece of steel to slightly clinch the very tip of the tack once it's gone through the leather? Tack on the stitch line and pull the tacks with side cutters when the toe of the presser foot gets up to them.
I use this method a lot, and have a small anvil I cut from light gauge railway iron, so working on shapes with a curve goes well. You could even tack up on the top of a vise if it were clean.


If I'm wet moulding oiled leather say as in an English saddle seat I'll put washing soda in the water, this seems to help with penetration and wetting.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[paul]

DW,

Per your suggestion from a couple of months ago, I ordered a sample of the water based cements offered by Midwest Chemical, from whom we've been buying our celluloid cements.

Their Vangrip 5-150-4 Water Based Adhesive, seems to have work well for the White's Fire Boots I repair. I expect to be using it on the full cuts when I get back to them.

They also sent a sample of Vangrip 9-16-2, a Neoprene Adhesive, which also seems to be water based, tho as yet I haven't used it.

I'll do a little test on some oil tanned leather laying around and get back to you. Maybe we'll find some help there.

PK

[paul]

Back from my tests.

The water based adhesive seems to hold better than the neoprene based stuff. I have no idea, of course, if my oil tanned was as oily as yours, DW. But it's what I had.

I've recently been looking at DiRinaldo Contact Cement for my White's Boots and so gave it a try on the oil tan as well. Believe it or not, it sticks better than the water based stuff!
I don't know if any of this is credible to you, but, as you like to say, "your milage may vary".

Pk

[dw]

Tom,

Yeah, tacks are always an option but I'm hoping I won't be faced with it. I could do it but I don't like it.

Paul, I think my Upaco 1812 has gone toes up. I called them today and they're sending a fresh sample and a sample of some other adhesive made specifically for oily leather--1882.

I think I'll call Midwest and get samples too, however.

Jesse,

I have tried cleaning the edge with keosene, wax cleaner, and acetone. The acetone seems to work the best but not perfectly...not well enough for a really secure bond.

If worst comes to worst I may even try hot melt...just to get the vamp tacked into place.

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice...I need it on this one.


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[dw]

Paul,

Thanks for the Midwest tip. I'm on that.

As for DiRinaldo...never heard of it. Never have had a chance to try it.

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[guy_shannon]

Hi DW.

When I have used oiled leather soles I had to really rough the leather up and thin the adhesive out to get a good penatration. once a coating was applied I would use regular unthinned adhesive over that and it worked well.

On uppers I have heated the oil to evaporate it but thinning the adhesive so it penatrates will work or hitting the whole upper with thinner so it dries uniformly will work as well....

P.S. open a door or a window and no smoking or you could have a crispy boot.

Guy Shannon

[dw]

Guy,

I've been roughing the leather pretty good and I do use thinned adhesive as a primer on occasion.

Long ago when I was doing repair we used to slop a bunch of all-pupose on a sole and set it on fire to accelerate the cure. The fire burns off the solvent, but it might burn off any oil as well. It's worth a shot...thanks.

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[j1a2g3]

DW,

I started making my very 1st pair of dress wellingtons yesterday. As I was cutting out my patterns I noticed the shape of your stays. I was wondering why you cut your stays to that shape? Why are they cone shape at the top and not squared off? Wouldn't that give more support?

Also, I am planning on using a mid liner. Do I make the liner the same size as the vamp or just big enough to fill the space between the counter and toe box? Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

Actually, I don't use a stay at all anymore. I feel that if you use a good, firm piece of lining leather you don't need them. I believe that stays were introduce in an era when it was common to use sheepskin for top linings. If I had no other choice but sheep, I'd go back to using stays. As to why they are cone shaped--that's what I inherited from my teacher. I can't say that there is anything technically wrong with making them square at the top if you are going to extend them the length of the backpanel and out the top. My stays were always made such that only the lower half was exposed on the inside of the back panel, the rest was between the lining and the top. And the whole front stay was between the lining and the top.

I do use a heel slide now...which accomplishes the same thing as exposing the lower part of the back stay.

No one ever taught me about mid-liners and I don't know that many bootmakers actually use them. I picked it up in study of historical shoemaking texts and listening to makers who aren't western bootmakers--funny how, given a open and tolerant atmosphere, we can cross-pollinate ourselves.

In my opinion, a midliner wants to extend from the side seam to just short of where the rear edge of the toe box will be. The portion of the midliner that is caught in the sideseam needs to be roughly the same width and height as the "fender." And when the boot is lasted, the midliner will only rise about a half inch above the welt in the forepart. I generally measure the last carefully across the forepart and adjust the placement of the midliner, on the vamp, accordingly.

Here's a photo of a midliner installed:

4968.jpg

Hope that helps...

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[amuckart]

I have an almost embarrassingly basic question, but I'm just sort of working stuff out as I go and I haven't found any written descriptions of the real nitty-gritty details of a lot of the things I'm trying to do. Lots of what to do, not so much how exactly to do it.

When you're pulling a stitch tight how do you hold on to the thread? More specifically how do you get it good and tight without tearing up your hands?

I'm getting the stitches locked up good and tight but I'm ending up gripping the thread in the first joint of my fingers and rotating my hand to pull the thread against the outside side of my little finger. I couldn't tell you why I do this, it's just what came naturally when I needed to pull stitches tight and I've never gotten out of the habit. If I try and do it so that the thread is going over the palm of my hand I can't get a good enough grip on it to get the stitch right.

It works, but the problem is that I've never seen a pattern for hand leathers that will stop my hands getting torn up doing this, and I can't come up with one that works and allows sufficient dexterity to actually sew. I guess part of the problem is that because I type for a living and do this in my hobby time I don't actually do this enough to have well enough developed calluses

Does anyone have suggestions for technique, and even pictures of hand leathers that might help here?

Thanks.

[artzend]

Alasdair,

I used to make little finger stalls, open both ends, for the fingers that are affected. Just cut the leather long enough to cover the required part of the finger wrap them around to get the size, and stitch down the outside so it fits firmly and doesn't fall off.

Make as many as you need. I used kid so it was flexible enough to bend with my fingers. I am sure that someone here with more experience with hand sewing can give you a better design.

Tim

[ttex]

Alasdair

I have use small pcs for my fingers, biking gloves without fingers and the traditional type leather wrap for your hand. If you want to make the leather wrap it is easy. If you are right handed make one for your right hand and use the awl handle for the left.

Take a pc of paper and wrap it around your hand starting with the thumb and move it around the palm and then to the back side. The wrap is held in place by a hole at each end. That is where your thumb goes. Make it out of paper so you can make the shape (hole and over all) you wish to have them make it from some skind

CW

[erickgeer]

Alasdair,

I picked up a pair of drywall installing gloves from Home Depot- they are a close fitting glove, with reinforced palm, and the first two fingers exposed for control.

I don't hand stitch very often, but I found them useful for protecting that very spot you mentioned, plus a good general glove for those days when I can't seem to grip a tool.

Erick

[paul]

Alasdair,

I've made and have used finger stalls for years as Tim has described.

Heck, the one I wear on my right little finger has gone out of the shop with me shopping before, without realizing I still had it on!

PK

[das]

Alasdair,

I'll see what I can do about posting an image or two from the office tomorrow, showing the proper hand positions, etc., In the mean time, yes, a
hand-leather on your left hand is essential to protect you, as well as to get a decently tight stitch--the wear of these was even mandated by law in England and Virginia in the 1600s (talk about your "Nanny State" ). A good hand-leather ought to come out over your fingers, maybe just past the middle joints of your ring finger and pinky. My threads usually cut in right in front of the knuckle-joint, but behind the middle joint of my pinky.

Okay, that's the left hand side...on the right you use the knob on the end of your awl haft to catch and wrap the thread (once is enough) for pulling
tight on that side. It's hard to describe, and harder to demonstrate in slow-motion, but you always hold the bristles--never let the ends go or drop on the floor while sewing. To catch the right-hand thread around the awl haft knob, you simply flip your wrist to engage the thread, then relax the tension momentarily and sort of "flip" the awl to get one wrap. Once pulled in tight, you "flip" the thread off of it. IOW, no stopping or slowing down, or methodically winding thread on like a capstan, just a "dip-flip-wrap-pull--flip to it.

It's a simple "hand ballet", but unless you are drilled in the proper technique, and do it for hours every few days at least, you'll have a hard
time catching on. It's one of those things books can't quite teach.

[dw]

Alasdair,

Al has said that he will post some 18thC. illustrations, I am going to post some that have their roots in the 19thC. but are my own--so take them with a grain of salt.

I use pretty much the same techniques as Al described. And it is a "hand ballet" which can happen very fast and very confidently once the movements become part of memory. I don't always keep the bristles in hand...although that is what I was taught as sacred canon. I just never got into the habit and now when I think about it I can inseam and never drop the bristles but when I don't think about it I do...it's a good excuse to be sure the floor is well swept once and a while.

I use a lefthand hand leather and a thumbstall on the right hand. For years that's all I used until I developed some nerve damage in the palm of my right hand (from poorly shaped awl hafts) and now I use a right hand leather which has a pad over the palm. Once in a while (more recently) I have used a finger stall on the pinky of my right hand...but it is a nuisance and I try to avoid it unless I have a crevasse in that finger joint already.

5009.gif

5010.gif

Tight Stitches
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[amuckart]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your responses.

DW, I looked at those pictures and a light came on above my head. I had a quick play this morning with some leftover ends and it all makes sense. It'll take some practice obviously, but now I know what to practice .

Al, thanks for the explanation. I'd love to see the pictures you have when you have time to post them. At the moment it's taking me a good 2-3 hours to put the sole on a turnshoe right now so with a pair of shoes a week to get out in the next three weeks I should manage to get a few hours practice and get a little faster.

Who knows, in a few pairs time I might have something worth putting in the gallery for something a little out of the ordinary.

[das]

This first one, sewn shut, is from M. De Garsault's 1767 L'Art du Cordonnier

5017.gif

The second from Diderot & D'Alembert's plate series, 1763(?), it's open-ended, each hole goes over the left thumb to hold it.

5018.gif

Sorry but I can't find the image I wanted of the workman's had wearing the hand-leather, and in mid-stitch.

(Both images were scanned and provided by Marc Carlson)

[dw]

Al,

On the back of Salaman's book is an old lithograph of a shoemaker beating out a sole. I don't know the date but the old boy is wearing a handleather. In the background is a full wellington blocker on a long board.

5020.gif

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[dw]

OK, here's the info on that pic...

The Patriotic Shoemaker from The British Workman, 1877


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[dai]

5022.jpg

hasluck-hand-leather-5023.txt*mime_txt.gif*text/plain*0.7*hasluck%2dhandleather%2dtxt*hasluck%2dhand%2dleather%2etxt

In order to draw the stitches tight in sewing, a hand leather (Fig.63 ) is indispensable. It is easily made from a piece of old leather, and its dimensions are from about 8 in. to 10 in. long, and 2 1/2 in. to 3 in. wide. The shape is shown in the illustration ; the leather is folded at the dotted lines, BC, and FE, and the ends are laced together at IJ. In the position indicated at A a hole is made, about 1 in. diameter, for the thumb to pass through, the short strokes ar B,D, and E show where the leather is snipped. The ends G and H are laced together as shown at IJ, and the leather is placed on the left hand with the lapped ends in the palm and the thumb passing through the hole A.