miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

[firefly]

...and quite the sermon it was!

I agree with you DW. I for one am a firm believer that there is a tool for every job and the right tool makes it so much easier.

For me it is not necessarily the money but the availability of the tools for this profession. We have seen a considerable decline in this industry. I even read an article the other day about the decline in the shoe repair business. People are not getting their shoes repaired anymore they just buy new. Hence there is a decline in manufacturers of hand tools for boot and shoe making.

I spoke to the gentleman from Pilgrim. He was very informative but he also told me that he did not have a reconditioned Landis splitter, that they were very rare because Landis went out of business years ago. He did tell me that if I gave him a list of the tools that I was looking for he would put me on the list next time he got one in.

The real frustration for me is not bootmaking but the search for the tools and supplies. I am not complaining. I consider this all part of the process and I know it takes some time and some effort.

That whole fork, knife and spoon thing is a bit of a stretch. Again I agree with you guys 100%. I am just trying to think outside the box to get a task done until my work bench is complete.

Thanks for the feedback.

Mark

[dw]

Mark,

There's no harm nor foul in trying to get by when you can't find, or even afford to pick up, a sole splitter. I hope I didn't give that impression. But all the time you're trying to get by you should at least be cognizant of the fact that it's "makeshift" at best.

And you should be looking for the proper tools or alternatives...

For instance, Landis wasn't the only one to make sole splitters. Champion made them. American may have made them and there are probably three or four other brands out there from a time before Landis got so big in the business.

Beyond that, you live in...Houston? Dallas? Check out shoe repair shops...particulary in older neighborhoods. Often, even if the shoe repair is a going concern, the owner may have an extra splitter stuck away in the back. At the very least, he can tell you where he buys his supplies--his "finder"--and the finder will typically have some extra machines and equipment tucked away in the basement or maybe even know of someone who is going out of business.

The big Boot and Saddlemakers convention in Witchita Falls has a parking lot sale the day before the main show. Much equipment is hauled in and changes hands there. Also the Leather Crafters Journal sponsors a show in Vegas(?) or Reno, and one in California, I think, and again in Sheridan, Wyoming, in the fall. There are often tools and machinery brokers at these shows as well.

I'd make a list now, if I were you, of machines and tools that are "must haves," "it would be nice," and "dreaming-of-bootmaking-paradise" acquisitions and start searching seriously.

The tools and machines are out there. The fact that shoe repair is in general decline and so forth is only a good thing. The machines are still there they're just worth less because demand is down.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on March 07, 2007)

[firefly]

DW,

Believe me I agree and I do really appreciate the suggestions. I guess all along the answer that you gave here is the answer that I was looking for. I should have asked the question correctly, if I even remember the question.

When I embarked upon the process of learning to make boots I did not realize that I could not just go down to the local Home Depot and pick up the tools that I needed.

Now building a workshop has become part of learning to make boots and it is an experience that I enjoy and will enjoy even more now that I have some other resources to follow.

I actually just won the bid on a Star Welt knife. I am really excited and I don't even know how to use it.

This in my opinion is one of the great things about this forum.

"...the road goes on forever and the party never ends..." Robert Earl Keen

[dw]

Mark,

One other suggestion I was gonna make--if you can't buy soling leather in the weights you want...or need to split it for toe boxes, etc...strike up a conversation with a nearby shoe repairer. Once you're satisfied the guy is marginally affable, take your cut soles and a piece of offcut in and offer the guy a buck or two to split them for you (first splitting the off-cut to make sure you get the exact thickness you need).

I know that when I was repairing I would have been happy to do it....60 seconds of my time and that adds up to $60.00 and hour.

I also know that several of my old time acquintances did just exactly that when they were getting started.

Just an idea...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on March 07, 2007)

[luckyduck]

My approach to the tooling issue is that I started making a style that used less tools (knife, needle, thread and awl)and built up skills. My first couple dozen pair were un-lasted moccasin style. Then I got a sewing machine and a run of lasts. Now I make slip lasted, turned, soft sole style. When I get over the big last buying extravaganza, then it will be time to find a 3 or 5 in one. Then the splitter, etc. to keep making progressively finer shoes.

I figure it will take 5-7 years to get everything, but that is ok with me. By then I will actually be good enough with each one to use them.

Paul

[firefly]

DW,

Funny story along those lines. I went to a local saddler and ask if he would run my soling leather through his machine. He had one of those really large industrial electric skivers. One of the shop helpers evedently did not know what he was doing and I think he was trying to take off too much on the first pass.

Well it made a horible noise and the leather came out lightly toasted. The shop owner handed me my soling leather back and told me that he would not split it because he did not want to ruin his machine. I politely said thank you and ran out of his shop.

I do like your suggestion and I have met a couple of the local boot makers here. I think I'll just stay out of that saddler's shop for now.

Paul, I do like your approach but my obssessive compulsive personality keeps jumping in the way and telling me that I need more complexity in my life.

Thanks for everyone's feed back.

Mark

[j1a2g3]

Mark,

I brought an American Leather Splitter from Pilgrim about 6 months ago. It splits 12 iron sole bends in half with no problem once I figured out how to use it.

Also, try Melanie Machine in Vernon, Ca. Ph#800-894-9268

[firefly]

Thanks Joel,

I am going to talk to the guy at Pilgrim again. I also talked to him about the forum and he is supportive and knows some of you guys.

I'll give melanie a cal as well.

Thanks,

Mark

[dw]

Oh, Melanie is good.

Now there's another funny story...

Years ago, when I was first into this business, I guess I was obsessed to some degree--I used to dream about bootmaking. And one of the dreams I had over and over was walking into this dimly lit shop/basement/warehouse (I don't know what it was) and there...there, before my eyes, were dozens, no, hundreds, of neat old machines (all painted black with gold lettering) just the ones I needed or wanted.

When I finally got down to LA to buy a skiver from Melanie (can't think of the old boy's name, just this minute) I walked into this huge dimly lit warehouse and there...there spread out before me, were hundreds of neat old machines. Row after row. Sometimes dreams do come true...of course, in my dream the machines were all for me and free of charge. All I had to do is just point. [sigh]

But he has stuff...I mean stuff. If anyone has a solesplitter for the asking he will. I've even gotten odd size trimmer blades and burnishing irons from him. 15's I think they were. And I'm the only guy I know that has an angled canvas burnishing wheel...yep, got it at Melanie.

BTW, I just thought I'd throw this in...it ain't the questions we ask that determine the answers we get. Just like this discussion, it sort of depends on what people are thinking about or the associations that spring up from the conversation. That's why sometimes these discussions get a little off-topic and it's OK. That's what a "Colloquy" is supposed to do.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Mark,

I started making boots after completing the Merrill Boot making School last September. I have experienced the shock of just how expensive it is to get going. I decided to "bite the bullet" get at least some of the tools of the trade. I don't like to think about the cost. I don't regret one cent of what I spent at this point in time.

My first pair of boots after school was a pair of white top, ostreach bottom packer boots for my dear wife. This kinda makes her an accomplice. My second pair was an exact copy for my daughter-in=law but I held back until my wife asked my to build them. This brought her further on board for the equipment purchases.

I purchased a FayScott/Landis 5 in 1 and paid dearly for it. I purchased 4 post machines, three roller feed and one walking foot. I then purchased 2 flat machines with a roller guide for stitching boot tops. Then a hook and eyelet setter made in Germany. Then a full line of boot lasts about 5 sizes from narrow to wide. Then more lasts. Today I made another order to Garlin Neuman for 8 skins total. Note: I used D.W.'s name and got royal treatment. Along with this is thread, needles, awls, heel and sole material, shanks, 50d nails, all purpose, thinner, celastic...and the list goes on.


Now that I am seeing a little return it doesn't smart so much. I would do it again and even if I had to get a meniel part time job, I would still forge on forward and get the good stuff. I agree with the above comments. Mark, I wish you well and encourage you to do what you need to do.

I am trying to resist being a know it all, however I feel your pain $$. Good Luck!

[dw]

Larry,

You must have help at your shop.

No offense, but I can't imagine what you'd want four (count 'em--4!!) post machines for!?

I make five styles of boot--three pull-on and two lace-up, and I occasionally dabble in things like mules and congress boots and the like--but one post machine is all I've ever needed or even wished for.

Now skivers...that's a different story I have two and, while not a skiver per se, I've always wished for a band splitter (less so in later years, however).

And if I had to throw out the dog, I'd make room for one of those huge old horizontal arm machines that let you sew up (along) the arm. I don't remember what the nomenclature on them is but you can't really make high backseamed boots, with any finesse, on a patcher or a post machine. But you could on one of these.

I've had several of those old machines in the dreams I mentioned but trouble with dreams is that when you wake up and go out to the shop there's always an empty spot where that machine is supposed to be.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[curtgillock]

This guy has several splitters & about anything else i've ever wanted.



http://www.oldcowpoke.com/

[dw]

Curt,

Great link! Thank you.

There you go, Mark, This "Old Cowpoke" feller has a dozen or so splitter...mostly Landis but there's some older one's there too--looks like Champions by the colour (burgundy).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

D.W.
They are called either on or off(depending on which way they sew) the arm sewing machine and I too have dreams about one. Artisan has a new 20 inch one that's a mere $6000.
Tom

[tomo]

Hi Curt,

I emailed JJ at USA Leather Machinery (Old cowpoke) with regards to a 5 in 1 in about August last year. Maybe he's been crook or something but he only replied to my email on Friday of last week, suggesting that I give him a call. That's seven months.
As if...

I heard a similar story from some others. I guess if you're prepared to wait, give him a call.
I suppose that makes me one of those impatient, always wanting instant gratification type fallows.

More power to y'awl.

T.

[big_larry]

D.W., and other friends,

By way of explanation, My first machine was the 168G101 walking foot. The walking foot has limitations compared to the roller feed. My next machine was a 236W120. It was dropped before getting to me. The hand wheel was broken, shaft bent, casting jarred to the point it would not turn. Once a machine is delivered the freight folks will not stand good the damage.

The next one was a 236G131 and it had serious problems that I have now pretty well overcome. I purchased another 236G131 to get into production while I worked on the other one.

I purchased 2 95K40's from a fellow over the Internet under 100 each. They both run perfectly out of the packing. They have a wheel but they advance from the feed dog. These are not post machines but work very well for flat fancy stitching.

I don't have help at my shop. I like a three hour work day, but I have been putting in 8 hour days to get the work along. I am still as slow as a seven year itch, however, the more I repeat the tasks, the faster I am able to do the deal. I also find it more efficient to work on three or four pair at once. I use glue-ups for linings and initial construction. It is nice to be accomplishing work while the glue dries.

D.W. I want you and all the others to know that I really appreciate the information you have shared. I plan to budget for a set of tapes you have for sale, just as soon as I get all the essential stuff. The pedeograph and forming foam has been a big help and I am trying to make that change from a "rank amature" to a skilled bootmaker. I learned that a tiny nick on the hook will break thread as soon as it gets up to speed. Most of the operational wisdom comes through that proverbial school of hard knocks. This school also has a tuition to be paid.

Please keep up the good work! I appreciate you and the others who have so unselfishly shared. I will try to do the same as soon as I have something worthwhile.

Your friend, Larry Peterson

[tomo]

Tom, DW,

Singer use to make those machines,they're big suckers, A friend has one, he got it from a company that made golf bags if that's any help.

My friend's in the US at the moment, there's a boot and saddle trade show on in Wickensburg AZ, when he gets home I'll find out the model number.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[dw]

Tom,

You know, I think I heard something to that effect about "Old Cow Poke," now that you mention it. Too bad...I sent him an email about an hour ago. If I don't hear back soon, I'll forget it.

BTW, I think it's the old 11-23 that I'm talking about. Years ago (more than ten) I had a chance to buy one, fully reconditioned for about $1800.00 but my shop was even smaller then than it is now.

I did see on OldCowPoke's site a Pfaff post machine (a 5645) that looks to have a really tall post. I wonder if anyone has seen or used that machine?

Larry,

Well that explains it...at least you have one that works and the others mught be good parts machines.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[firefly]

I really want to thank everyone for the responses on and off the forum. I have made a few calls and some bidding on eBay and I think I am going down the right road.

But I do have to say that you guys really take all of the excuses out of boot making. A fella can't whine about not having the answers or the resources around here.

I do have to say Larry, the craft of enlisting the wife as an accomplice is one that must be mastered before attempting any endeavor. Very nice touch and a solid piece of advice.

I'll post some of the tools as they come in the door.

And by the way DW, that dream is a recurring one for me.

Thanks,

Mark

[firefly]

Hey Guys,

I just went out to the Old Cowpoke's website and realized why it is tough to find some of this stuff...because he owns it all!!!

Mark

[curtgillock]

I seem to remember that he doesn't answer e-mails. IIRC it was a little challenge to get them to return calls also. He has a partner in east Tennessee & some of his stuff is there & other stuff in Texas. I bought a Juki LU-563 from him for a reasonable price & I was amazed at the condition of the machine. It looked nearly new.
DW, I know of a couple of the old 11 machines. I know a fellow who has one & he found a set of the alternate parts to make it sew conventional rather than up the arm. That is a hoss of a machine bigger than a 45. Did the 7 class cylinder arm sew up the arm as well or am I mistaken?

[curtgillock]

Mark, just so you know his website is not kept up to date either. But he does have a world of stuff.

[firefly]

Hey Curt,

I actually called and he returned my call within 2 minutes. He's a definate character but seemed like a pretty nice guy. How was he with shipping? Did he get it out to you pretty quick?

He actually has a great price on the 5 in 1. I think I'd be breaking the rules to mention it here. He also mentioned that he had a German made 5 in 1 that was a bit better machine than the Landis. If anyone knows anything about the Germany made let me know.

I think I am going to place an order for a 5 in 1 and a splitter today. I'll let you guys know.

Thanks,

Mark

[curtgillock]

Mark, once we worked out the deal he sent right away packed in a factory Juki box from a different model (excellent package). Shipping cost was a good deal 1/2 of what people on ebay want. He charged only the actual shipping cost & no handling charge. IIRC the reason I had trouble I was calling the TN number. Once I reached him in TX all went well.

[tomo]

Hey guys,
perhaps he's a technophobe and you guys had good results because you called him, but if that's the case he has quite a sophisticated website...
Although I must say, I do have to give him credit for getting back to me.

More power to y'awl.
T.