"The Art and Mysterie..."

[tmattimore]

That is true for me too. I will be going along pushing, rubbing, and turning screws and then pop it is done. I always have to resist the temptation to go just a little tighter but maybe you do on the chrome tan so it will set. I worked out the blocker pattern and boards so that the crimp marks are always trimmed off, except for the occasional 22inch calf I have had to accomodate and then only on the top screw. I will cut out some blocker patterns and send them to you it seems as you said earlier that the shape and proportions are similar.
Tom

[dw]

Tom,

I would love to see your blocker pattern and your board shape. But there is no hurry. In fact, I don't want to be pulled by conflicting patterns and so forth until I am both sure I can do it with what I've got (I'm already almost certain of that) and that I at least think I understand what's going on and why it works so well (getting there). But I will admit to curiousity.

So no hurry, no deadline send them when you get time. I appreciate it it immensely...thank you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

Sure thing I am curious about the shape as they seem similar though independently arrived at.
Tom

[dw]

Gang,

I was talking to Al Saguto the other day about full cuts...he's the only person I've ever known that actually saw his teacher block fronts and whose teachers saw his teacher block fronts. So there's three generations of direct experience with full cuts. On top of that, Al probably has read and studied more of the historical literature than most of us is aware exists...it's his job.

And while Al and I never had the time to block fronts together, he has shared a few crucial insights with me, from time to time, that made a significant difference in the results I acheive.

In any event, on this bright, warm Valentines Day here in the PNW, and me about to block some fronts of leather I've never tried before, I thought I would share some of what Al said on the process. With regard to a "standard" method of crimping or a description the methods of the old masters...

I've never seen any descriptions either, and Peterkin's master Engleke taught him the "whatever works" method--leathers are so different skin to skin, I don't think there was (historically) ever any other rule but "whatever works". Otherwise it would have been written down in Devlin or someplace....We have the old patterns, the old boards, the old boots to look at.... that's as close as we're going to come.

Like I said, there was so much variation (inconsistency) leather to leather, like calf and kipskins; the small waxed-calf butts that you can't cut cross-grain/stretch toe-to-spine, etc., etc. that I doubt if there was ever a "rule". Rees mentioned "blocking" with no particular advice. Devlin called it an "irksome chore" and described a machine to do it. I think it was just one of those things you got on with as best you could.... And, as you yourself have observed having looked at old 19thc boots, it's obvious from the wrinkles that "back then" crimping was a hit or miss operation.

IMNSHO, this is probably as definitive an answer as we're gonna get. I'm satisfied if that is there no "right" or "wrong" way, there may be a "better" way. The Mattimore Method, as I have taken to calling it, may be a revolutionary breakthrough, or it may be a rediscovery of what was at one time passed from generation to generation, or it may simply be a logical extension of the "whatever works" method. It doesn't matter. What really matters it that until now, none of this has been written down...none of it preserved for future bootmakers. Every generation, especially in the absence of a teacher who was, himself a master of the style, had to re-invent the "whatever works" method all over again.

It was to preclude that happening for yet another century or so...until the style was lost forever to the memory of men....that the Guild and the Crispin Colloquy were created. "To Preserve and Protect...."

Gee, I'm glad to be a part of this.

Now, if we could only re-discover out how to make a boot with no seams at all.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

D.W.
Ditto. I hope 30 years hence it helps someone.
But before we walk we must crawl. There is a pair of postillion boots at The Carriage Assn. of America Musuem of unknown date marked as french, about 14 inches high made of one piece of leather with a back seam. The remarkable thing is it is about 10 oz leather and stiff as a board. Some day I may try one but the crimping board would take a whole sheet of ply wood.

[dw]

Tom,

I shudder to think about using a 10 ounce leather...although I know it was done.

And I cannot even imagine how one would block a whole boot top, such as posted above, especially at that 90° angle. Although it does look to me (with just this photo to go by) as if that leather is a veg sheep of some sort and would, if that's the case, be very easy to shape. But not last very long in extended wear.

I blocked some chrome tanned buffalo yesterday. Buffalo is not the strongest leather. I got one on the boards perfect, the other a little tiny rip just under the throat iron--again this is my blind spot and I have to be careful here...I am willing to accept that this was my fault.

But I will say that the chrome tanned leather does not work as nicely as the veg or veg/retan, as the case may be.

I do think your method is a step forward. Of course, I am not doing it exactly the way you do it...I have my own patterns and my own boards...but I believe I understand the important differences in the way I was doing it and the way you are.

I think your method tends to trap the majority of the pipes away from the break...early on. And that's a critical issue and very worthwhile. But it also foreshortens the edges more than my approach and so makes it a bit more prone to rip. I think the next pair I will pre-stretch the edges as I have been doing and then re-set the blocker on the board using your techniques, as far as I am able.

My method tends to concentrate the pipes at the break...despite the best efforts to chase them out of there...and ultimately risks freezing some in place.

Anyway, that's this weeks installment of the ongoing saga...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[admin]

I have moved Tom Mattimore's sequence of photos to "The Art and Mysterie:a photo essay" > "another approach."

This will not only consolidate these photos and make them convenient to find, it will allow me to make the topic "Sticky' so that it will always be available.

I have omitted the "Add a message" window there to allow the topic to be preserved and because further discussion of the full Wellington properly belongs here, in this sub-topic.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

[dw]

Tom, Jesse Lee,

I got to wondering. Jesse Lee mentioned "Virginia waxing" (??). I understand that this might be a way to blacken and "wax" a raw piece of veg tan such that it resembles the old "waxed calf."

I guess you use this approach, Jesse Lee...how about you, Tom...with that Wickett and Craig?

Would either of you care to share a recipe? Please?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Glad to share some techniques. lets go over a few aspects. French waxed was a process used on the flesh side of calf and cow in the old days. It was applied warm with a spatula devise and rubbed in with stiff brushes and finished with a heavy glass ball with handles.

Virginia waxed is a term perhaps lost and is mentioned in my journal by John Taylor and it says to 'wax the leather after the boot is made as they wax them in Virginia'

This means you make the boot/brogan/shoe, flesh out and wax it after the fact. I use primarily veg tanned (Oak/Hemlock when I visit the Amish) and have tried it on chrome tanned after I stretch the leather on wood bases, flesh down. Good results.

You have examined many pairs of 19th. century boots, some new old stock I hope. In those, you observe a perfectly smooth waxed flesh side, but it has little cracks on the finish. THIS, is NOT from aging, but the Virginia Waxed style. After polishing a lot the little cracks go away.

Again, bear with this treatise:

During and just after the Civil war Centennial, the smooth out Frankenstein brogan reared it's ugly head and roared, along with the mythos that the brogans are not supposed to fit right 'as the originals' (codswallop!!!) Then, even Dixie Gunworks in the 70's asked why cartridge boxes were made 'rough out' (a modern reenactor term).
And a host of wooly suede brogans made the mark and had the 15 minutes of fame!

Flesh out is to receive the wax finish in order to
waterproof and fill the leather. When grain side gets scuffed or wears, there is no strength in it.

Flesh out filling:

This is an easy process and can make the fleamiest of bellies come smooth and polished right. it's a 'lost' technique. It uses simple flour glue, which is applied warm or almost hot. Apply it with a bone folder and it knits the fibres together. I also use this for edging as it is a 19th century process.
After it has dried it's as smooth as the grain side. It will dry somewhat stiff. Then the leather is dyed, the dye won't come thrrough to the flesh side like in the farby wooly suede brogans or boots.
The wax is also applied warm (NOT hot) and is a mixture of pure beeswax with just enough pure Neatsfoot oil to make it slightly tacky, like barely. This is applied with the bone folder and scraped in. After it sets, polish the boot and it's golden.

Hope this helps.
JesseLee

[dw]

Jesse Lee,

Thanks for the walk-through. I tend to limit myself to chrome and chrome/veg retans for my full cuts but I have an occasional customer who wants something a little more "period."

I have a treatise that describes the making of top quality waxed calf on best India Lining kips. It involves saturating the leather with a very refined mixture of lanolin and beeswax with some cod or whale oil...perhaps. The leather is stored for up to a year and then the surface of the flesh is scrubbed (my term--may not be accurate) with a soap similar to Fels Naptha mixed with chimney black (soot). This not only breaks the waxy residue on the surface but blackens the leather. After which a "sizing" is applied made from something very similar to wallpaper paste and when almost dry, the flesh is burnished to a high, almost patent, surface.

This is all from memory, so I may not have it all down correctly but I'm pretty sure I've got the basics right. I actually made an attempt to duplicate this process some years ago with mixed results. I wanted a brown waxed calf, so I skipped the fels naptha step (very important, I think) and the sizing didn't take as well as I would have hoped. Overall however, the leather was very sweet and nice to work with.

I will add the info about "Virginia wax" to my database and may try it before long.

thank you again...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW
Glad I could assist in a small way. I have heard of similar long term processes. The lanolin takes forever to dry. My aim is to simply replicate what be done inside a week in 1870 for a cowboy or soldier. Can't wait to pick yer brain on this stuff this summer.

Give my formula a try on some scap, I think you will like it. As for the sizing, I'm die hard with the flour glue. Maybe I just understand the dinamics of it. Sure like to share it hand to hand with someone.
Cheers,
JesseLee

[dw]

Jesse Lee,

What is the exact recipe for the flour paste? Water to what kind of flour?

Actually, wallpaper paste is probably similar if not identical to your flour paste. I think it may depend upon the starch being used--you could use rye flour, like the Eastern Europeans do in Vass' Handmade Shoes for Men, or a wheat flour, and oat flour and even corn starch makes a formidable glue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Yes the old fashioned wallpaper paste does the trick. I am getting wonderful results with regular store bought white flour. Mix to a transparent warm chunky paste. I have gone back to this for all my linings and have found it is as good if not better than the commercial leather glues and cheaper, non toxic and you can sew through it without having to let it cure as in leather glues (avoiding brand names here). Adding a spoonfool of corn starch helps to keep it preserved if you make a pot for use over the day and adds strength I have discovered.
It's great for edge finishing and not as messy as one would think if you have a handy damp cloth. Great to prepare a nide hard edge. It is something to work with, but thats the gentle meditation of the Craft. And I like that. Great filler on the rough spots. I trim soles and heels by hand and use a bootmakers file/rasp.
JesseLee

[j1a2g3]

The use of flour intrigues me greatly.

Has anyone tried Bread Flour or Hi-Gluten Flour? They are one in the same. Both have a higher Gluten content then regular bleached flour. Since the Gluten is whats makes the paste stick and harden I would guess it would make a better glue.

How does flour paste hold up when the boot gets soaking wet? Is mildew a problem?

Has anyone tried Arrowroot? Since it froms a phyical bond, water would not affect the paste after it had harden. Flours and Starch work by absorption So water would trend to weaken the strenght of the paste over time.

Chef in a fromer life, Joel

[jesselee]

Joel
Thanks for the heads up on the gluten flour. I have never had a mildew problem or one reported to me. I use the flour glue for the top linings as well as full linings on my 2 oz. calf 1880's90's boots, also for the mule ear flaps when they are laminated. I have also had very good success with the flour glue in bookbinding.
I have restored and collected Civil War period and cowboy boots, to many to put a number to. Many showed evidence of flour glue in the top linings. I have not used it so much for soles but have for heels. I prefer a horeshoof glue for this or bookbinders glue (forget the brand name) it's white like carpenters glue, but more adhesive. All my bootwork is waxed and not grain side out so perhaps the waxing retards any mildew.

Jesse

[tomo]

Jesse, Joel,

In Hasluck's book on saddlery, he has a Flour Paste recipe that adds Alum, powdered resin and a clove or two, he says the mixture will keep for a year and can be softened with water when dry.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[dw]

For folks who want to make their own crimping boards, I've been meaning to post this for a while...

Boulter Plywood, 1.888.958.6237, sells a one inch Okoume, 13 ply, marine grade plywood for $58.00 in a 2'x4' sheet. This is enough to make two long boards, or multiple short boards. I have been assured that both surfaces are solid and there should be no voids in the plies.

The multiple plies enable a pretty even cut and bevel on the edge with no tool more advanced than the finisher...and I use wood rasps and files for an even more controlled edge.

A spent cartridge casing makes an acceptable screw socket or one might could purchase a few of Dick Anderson's stout and very professionally made sockets separately.

I mention all this because sometimes a feller wants to experiment with shape or placement of extra irons. "Rolling your own" allows you to do this without investing too dearly, should the experiment not live up to expectations.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Thats a great wood for crimping boards, not going to warp them I reckon. Now, spent casings is real old school. I used mine from my Remmington army 44 conversion model and they work just fine.
I have 2 1/2 sets of crimping boards in pine. One is a single, well worn, Civil War period, a thick set made from glued wood (not laminate) from about 1890 and a tall and wide set from about 1860-70 that have the sanded bevel and are broad enough to do one piece boots which I did many years ago while making boots in Seattle. Like the crimped pieced that Kaspar put up. This set is a bit more 90%. But I still make them the old way from pine board, finished and super waxed.
Jesse

[firefly]

Hey Guys,

I would like to reach back a few posts and ask why one would use the method of 'flesh side out'?

Does this somehow give a more durable finish?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Mark

[dw]

Mark,

Tradition!

Seriously...many of the men's boots built between the beginning of the 19th century and the end of it were made from what has come to be called "waxed calf." The best was made on Indian Kips, in India, with British tanning know-how.

So for those folks going for a historically correct "look," if not actuality--say for Civil War re-enactors, nothing else will do.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[firefly]

DW,

Got it. Sounds interesting I might have to try it one day. It seems as though it might be extremely durable.

Thanks,

Mark

[das]

Mark,

My two cents:

1) most men's uppers were finished on the flesh ("flesh-out" as it's called today) from roughly the 1600s through most of the 1800s.

2) It obviates the need for a lining, as the smooth grain in inward already

3) coloring the flesh was cheaper than staining/dying the grain, and as iron-black was common for blacking the grain--and it could cause cracking--it was "better" to black the flesh

4) the flesh finish was more durable, and scratches and scuffs could be burnished and polished out, whereas on the grain they were not easy to hide

5) the grain being the integrity of the leather, with it in, it was protected and maintained a certain amount of water-proofness--if it was out, and got scuffed off....

Anyway, hope this helps.

[das]

I'm a big fan of paste, as it's the traditional stuff. Like Jesse I use thin wall-paper paste (or book-binders paste when I can get it) for burnishing flesh uppers. For sticking stuff together, however, I prefer Hirshklebber(sp?) from Atlas International in CA, a German paste made from potato starch

[dw]

Al,

I have HirschKleber and use it occasionally esp. when I want to assemble perfed collars or toe caps. If I use cement, the residual will never come out of the perfs wheras HK is water soluble.

That said, I was not trained using paste and I would really appreciate some more info about how you use HirschKleber as a paste--where and in what consistency and so forth. For instance, would you use it to assemble a Darby quarter onto a vamp or even a golosh on to an Oxford or Balmoral quarter? How would you go about doing this? Do you have to hold everything in place until it dries?

I think everyone could learn something from this...we are all too used to, and maybe even addicted to, contact cements of various sorts. Sometimes it would be nice to have an alternative...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

I thin the HK a little, as I think it's too thick right from the tub. Apply with a finger, press, and either weight the parts in place, or tack them (with tacks), go have lunch, and then it's stuck. Sorry, nothing involved worth describing. As for closing Derby, Oxfords, etc., I usually use the "held-together" method, just holding the parts with one hand as I feed into the machine. If I wanted to stick that, I'd use Barge