vamp leather question

[LEE/CHIN HO]

I was wondering if anyone has a heavy duty.....
meaning 5/8" - 1" leather sewing machine for sale?

Such as 97-10, 733R, Seiko CH8, Landis 3 or a 205-370?

THANKS,

LEE

[shane]

Lee,
Whats your price range? I don't sell them but I know lot of people who do. But they are never cheap, especially the landis.
Shane

[paul]

Has anyone ever had experience lining a cowboy boot with 1/4" sheep's wool?
PK

[shane]

Paul,
After I had been making boots for maybe a year, I had a request for such a boot, a packer lined with wool and a removable wool insole liner. I vowed to never do it again. The boots turned out well enough and are still in use today(after 8 years), but what a pain.
What in particular do you want to know?
Shane

[paul]

Shane,

Thanks for coming back to me with your experience. I have actually been thinking what a pain it could be.

From dealing with the wool at the inseam, to what to do about a toe box, the quarter seams and other things that I'm sure would arise later. A moccasin design probably makes more sense. Have you ever tried the ugg design?

Anybody else? Larry, I know you sell the book, have you made any uggs?

PK

[walrus]

Paul
I havent made UGG boots but I have sewn sheep skin and it is best done on a fur machine that uses makes an overlock stitch.just like a surger. that stitch can be pounded pretty flat .If you don't have a fur machine you can use a walking foot machine. You must dampen the fur side of the hide where you are going to sew with a damp cloth ,this helps hold nap down while you sew it .This seam doesnot lay as flat as the overlock stitch but it does work.
For the toe box I would use a light weight thermal knit material . I hope this will help.

Larry Waller
Walrus Shoe & Leather Co.

[shane]

Paul,
I used a thermal material for the toe box, only because that ia all I knew about at the time. As far as inseaming went, that was one of the easier problems. After I lasted the boots I trimed the wool off where it came to the insole. The thing that was the most trouble for me was sewing the parts together. A regular stitcher with bottom feed won,t move the material through the machine.I physically pushed the boots through my 31-15. What ugly stitching! A needle feed machine would work great, but the only thing I have like that is my landis 3(definatly not a boot machine). You also have to trim the wool off, where ever you have a overlapping seam, from the piece that will be on bottom or under the other piece.
I think it is a pain, but the knowledge and experience I gained made it worth doing once.
Shane

[paul]

Larry and Shane,

Thank you both for posting replies to my question. I acknowledge the challenges you mention. But I also have the feeling there is something hiding there in the project for me. It'll probably a different style than a western boot or an ugg, but I'll definently keep your experiences and observations in mind when I try my hand at whatever it turns out ot be.

Thanks again, PK

[erickgeer]

Anyone,

I posted this question in "Tanning in America" back when the discussion of different historic tannages was on. I'm trying this again...

The old manuals state pretty flatly that chrome-tan and veg-tan should not be mixed because of the veg-tan leaching the chrome salts out of the chrome-tan.

Is this still a factor, or was it ever a very significant factor? It seems like it would be very difficult to make a shoe and have only chrome-tanned leather unless one is using modern materials and components such as celastic stiffeners and fiber insoles.....

This question has been haunting me for a while- I am generally mixing leathers (chrome lining w/ veg-upper, or vice-versa) and I don't know if it's going to come back to haunt me .

Thanks,

Erick

[dw]

Erick,

If such leeching does occur, I've never seen it. But that's not to say it doesn't happen. Maybe it just isn't evident or a real problem.

What were the effects of this leeching supposed to be? Was it just staining or something more deleterious?

But beyond that, I can't think of too many examples of modern footwear in which chrome tans and vegs tans aren't mixed. You've got insoles and heel stiffeners and toe stiffeners mixing with vamps and quarters and linings and so forth.

Then too, I use several leathers that are both...veg and chrome mixes right in the tanning process--attempting to create a leather with the strengths of each tannage and the weaknesses of neither. I don't see aproblem with these leathers, they are some of my favourites.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

3740.jpg

[erickgeer]

That's the mystery.... I don't remember the books saying the end results. I was hoping someone who studies and works by the old masters might be able to shed some light on it. I wondered if it was kind of a purity of materials thing- more than a function and wear thing - anyone?

I'm sure the retanned stuff isn't going to be a problem, since (presumably) it's loaded with tannins and chrome salts together.

Erick

[ricky]

LEE,
If u want a heavy duty leather sewing machine like CSU-4250 with Double needle, flatbed, unison feed(large hook with reverse stitch)
contact Anas at anas_s@rediffmail.com for quotation.
Also send ur price range..

Regards..

[anas]

LEE,
If u want a heavy duty leather sewing machine like CSU-4250 with Double needle, flatbed, unison feed(large hook with reverse stitch)
contact Anas at anas_s@rediffmail.com for quotation.
Also send ur price range..

Regards..

[jenny_fleishman]

Does leather with a metallic finish breathe? I've received a bunch of leather samples recently and I'm drooling over some of the metallic finishes. But I am assuming they don't breathe, resulting in sweaty feet.

Likewise, if cow leather has an imprinted texture (such as lizard skin), does this affect the breathability in any way?) Thanks.

Jenny

[dw]

Almost all "finishes" metal or otherwise are "paint jobs," of one sort or another. Some are simply waxes, some are pigmented resins and some are layers of...well, paint.

A silver finish may not breathe any more or less well than a black or a red finish. It depends entirely on how much pigment was applied and how dense the coverage is.

The only way to ensure maximum breathability is to go with a "naked" finish leather such as Garlin's burnishable buffalo or an "aniline finish" leather such as Hartke's Italian kangaroo.

As for prints, I never use them---they are superimposed upon the leather and, for me, represent all that is "phoney" to a degree I don't even want to think about. I call them counterfeit leathers and to some extent the only reason imprinting is used is to camouflage otherwise damaged or low grade skins.

But no, imprinting by itself will not generally affect breathability.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jenny_fleishman]

re Leather stretch...I am getting ready to cut my shoe uppers out of kidskin. I am having difficulty figuring out the best way to place the pattern pieces in terms of the stretch. Am I correct that I should cut the quarters parallel to and close to the spine?

Going away from the spine towards the belly, the kidskin seems to stretch in ALL directions. I'm thinking it might be slightly stretchier parallel to the spine as opposed to perpendicular to the spine, but it's hard to tell.

From previous discussions, I gather it is best for the vamp to have the greatest stretch going lengthwise on the shoe, not across the ball of the foot...but with the kidskin being so stretchy, I'm at a loss as to which way to place the pattern!

Sorry for posting so often, but I'm desperately trying to make a pair of wearable shoes to bring the HCC meeting at the end of the month. Having one of my lasts crack into two pieces hasn't improved the odds of success!

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

You shouldn't feel bad about posting or asking questions. I'm just a bit sad that with so many extremely knowledgeable folks who read this board, so few take the time to respond.For myself...I'm not always qualified to answer--generally restricting myself to those subjects that I know something about.

As for the stretch...stretch is generally considered to be the greatest going from backbone to belly. Vamps want to be cut so that the stretch runs from toe towards the heel. this allows the vamp to stretch as it is lasted but minimizes subsequent stretch during wear. No one wants a pair of shoes that keep getting wider and sloppier and looser (because they have been cut with the stretch running across the foot). Some manufacturers and those who cut for economy don't pay much attention to the direction or placement of vamps except to get the greatest yield from a hide.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

DW,
In your post to Jenney, am I understanding you to say if vamps are cut in the direction of neck to tail in the long run there maybe uncontolable stretch. But backbone to belly will give the stretch needed to last a shoe.Therefore causing the warer's shoe to hold it's shape better.So do the same princpal hold true for counters.

Ed

[dw]

Ed,

Leather, bovine leather in particular, is said to be "tight" parallel to the backbone and stretchy from the backbone to the belly (although this rule of thumb may not apply when the margins of a side or hide are considered).

We cut the vamp so that the stretch will run from the toe to the heel...this means that the toe of the vamp will point towards the backbone or the belly. A vamp cut in this manner will stretch lengthwise while the shoe is being lasted. But not widthwise when the shoe is being worn.


As for the counters/heel stiffeners, there may be some benefit to be derived by cutting the counters such the the stretch runs across or widthwise on the counter but I, personally, think that all things being equal and the stiffeners are not placed in the margins of a bend or side...or in any area that might otherwise be called "offal"...there is little to be gained by being so particular. I am more concerened with the density and temper of the leather than where it is cut. If anyone can tell me otherwise I would be interested in the explanation.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

DW,

I feel the same about density and temper.Thanks for your opinion.

Ed

[relferink]

Ed, DW, Jenny

I cut my vamps indeed as described but my quarters perpendicular to the backbone. Otherwise the shoe will get to loose in the heel with wear. I would cut the counter the same way for the same reason, perpendicular to the backbone. I would not want it to stretch once the customer starts wearing it. I do agree that the grade of leather in this case is more important than the stretch direction and since I rarely work with leather counters my opinion is based more on theory that practical experience.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, please clarify...which way do you place the various pieces and which way do you want the greater stretch (toe to heel or side to side)?

My head is swimming! I don't even remember which way I cut the vamps on the kidskin, but it was so the greater stretch was from toe toward heel, and I think the stretchier direction on the hide was the opposite of what I expected it to be...

[relferink]

Jenny,

Based on the pictures I posed earlier from the fitting shoe I indicated the line where you will have the most stretch. My arrows are freehand but you'll get the idea. The most stretch in a skin runs from top to spine to belly. Remember it like this. When the cow eats a lot it gets fat, the skin needs to stretch that way, the animal will not get longer or shorter so not so much stretch length wise.

4395.jpg

If your kidskin is so stretchable that you can pull it out any way you want there are a couple of things you can do to offset this, the ones I consider worth looking into are cutting the lining to stretch opposite the upper and use a nylon tape along the closing line to keep it from stretching to much.

Rob

[dw]

Robert,

Although I do not make many shoes I can easy see that your remarks about cutting the quarters perpendicular to the backbone makes sense.

With the counters however, I am thinking that stretch running across the counter makes some sense especially on boots. We sew in a flat counter and expect it to shape itself to the back of the last to some degreee or other. I see that happening best when the stretch runs the length of the counter rather than top to bottom.

Of course, as we have more or less agreed, using heavy leather counters--10-11 iron--of good quality may mitigate any drawbacks of such cross-wise stretch.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

In shoes I have the counter molded and formed to the last, by the time I'm done with them they are far from flat. In a shoe vs a boot the counter may be a little easier accessible to manipulate and form around the last.
This difference would explain a preference for a certain direction of potential stretch. I use the term potential since we are agreeing on a good grade leather that will stand up well and not just stretch as much as re-shape.

Rob