Tools of the Trade

[tomo]

Bruce,
I posed this question about 12 months ago, after I acquired a splitter that had no name but looks similar to the American machines.
The blade was beveled on both sides, which as you rightly point out against the norm even for a saddler's bench splitter. DW gave me the same advice about the bevel being ground only on one side.

However, It occured to me later that in order to restore the 'correct' bevel, I was going to loose a good 5/8" of prime blade. Also, the height of the cutting edge of the blade in relation to the cusp or apex of the feed roller was going to be compromised. So I decided to sharpen the knife (I took it to the local saw doctors) as it was, with the bevel on both sides. If it worked, I hadn't lost blade to any great extent and the cost was minimal. If it didn't work then I was going to have to suck the Kumara and loose some blade
The splitter is working very well and I use it on a variety of leather not just sole bends.

If your splitter is a Landis then I'd definitely heed DW's advice, but in my instance other factors came into play, i.e. loosing a lot of blade to restore the single bevel and the height of the roller /blade relationship.

Bruce thanks for the info on the thread burners.

More power to y'awl

T.

[tomo]

Bruce,
The other thing I did to the feed rollers was to get them cleaned up. A friend has a small engineering shop and I went and saw him.
He took a minimum skim off both rollers, so they were the same diameter and free from any humps or hollows. Then Jerry put the roller that had had dentures on it into a milling machine and set it up with an indexing wheel so he could recut the teeth. These were done so that the top was flat i.e. not sharp - Looking at the roller end on inagine little piramids with flat tops, I think there were 80 teeth.

This took a while to do but it wasn't difficult, and the difference was amazing. The feed is seriously positive!

Just some thoughts.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[bjohnsonleather]

Tom,
The blade in question was on my skiver. I haven't tried it yet today, but it has worked fine with just a light polish on the wet/dry and stropping for over a year. I fully expect it to not perform since I am now more enlightened. LOL.
Thank you also for the response about the feed rollers. My handcrank splitter is a Champion. The lower roller (one with the ridges) tends to slip and not feed well, usually it is the set screw slipping on the shaft. I put the crank on it with my attitude adjusting screwdriver, and does well for a while again. The end is pretty polished. Any thoughts for/against giving it a little tooth or adding a small plug of rubber for a grip? Thanks for the help, now where do I pay to really join you guys?

- Bruce Johnson

[dw]

Bruce,

I need to apologize to you. Somehow...lack of attention, old age, whatever...I got the impression that you were talking about a splitter blade. I know now that you weren't...hell, it's right there, if it had been a snake it would've bit me.

Let me correct myself...

On my Landis 5-in-1 machine, the skiving blade is beveled from both sides. And if my memory is correct, every skiving blade on every 5-in-1 I've ever seen was double beveled. In fact, I will go a step further and say that I believe they are sold with, and designed to use, a double beveled blade.

Without the pressure of a top roller, like on the splitter, it almost doesn't make sense that the blade would be beveled only from one side. Logic tells me that it would tend to dive into the leather and be entirely unpredictable and unreliable. (Now watch someone will pop up and prove me wrong...but hey, that's alright)

So anyway...again, my apologies. I hope I didn't mislead you too bad.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[bjohnsonleather]

DW,
Nope, didn't mislead me yet, have yet to turn a handle on either skiver today. But the blade beveled on one side still works, which makes me wonder which one will mess up first. The good thing about this whole deal is that it will be easier to convert a single bevel to a double bevel than vice versa. Actually the single bevel does a bit better job on mulehide for my horn wraps and strainer covers than the double bevel. I have had one skiver for almost two years and the two in one for over a year, and never noticed until yesterday anyway about the different bevels.
Now for my splitter question (repeat - splitter, LOL). Any thoughts about how to get a little more grab of the set screw in the feed roller against the shaft? Thanks, mi amigo.

Bruce Johnson

[paul_k]

I thought I'd post my experience with the Upaco 1812.

Works good! I sell and repair White's Fire Boots, (read oil tanned leather). I'm patching tongues often. A heck of a job with Barge. But the Upaco sticks! I clean the leather and apply it with one of those foam brushes. When it starts to dry it'll start to disappear. Stick on the patch and sew the edge. It doesn't even gum up the needle on the patcher.

I'm in the middle of a pair of boots of oil tanned leather and it's working great for that too.

Now we just need to someone to buy the pails and sell quarts and gallons. How many samples will they send out before they catch on?

PK

[guy_shannon]

I am curious if when you wet or apply leather stretch to the surface of a pair of boots when you are lasting them and you use this Upaco 1812 as the adhesive will it break the bond or will it still hold the pieces together?

I have used Barge and Helmifix regularly but I am always open to newer adhesives. I am currently looking at useing Wilsonart adhesives . A friend uses this brand with his orthotics shop and is most happy with the price and strength of it but it comes in various colours his first time he got red glue.

Guy

[bjohnsonleather]

Good afternoon,
I am starting to do more exotic inlay work on my personal items I make, and nobody can inlay/overlay like this group! Question is, what do you use to cut these inlays and overlays? I have heard of scalpels, razor blades, and years back read of someone using a chiseled-off needle in a sewing machine set with the stitch length at about zero. Any other pearls of wisdom? Thanks for any and all advice.

Bruce Johnson

[dw]

Brucce,

The technique you are referring to uses a needle...about size 12...that has been broken off so that it barely penetrates the plane of the needle plate. Then the needle is sharpened to a chisel point. A machine that can be set to almost zero stitch length and which uses bottom feed only is an absolute "must."

The chisel on the needle must be aligned with the direction of cut...precise is better. A piece of manila folder is cemented to the back of the piece to be cut and the pattern which wants to be cut is cemented to the grainside. At which point, it is pretty straight forward. Don't push or pull the material ...let the machine feed as it will. If you run the machine at fairly high speed, it will feed and cut the leather at a rate which will not test your patience too severely and to a degree of accuracy (slow down in the tight curves) that will astound you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

Bruce:

If you look at the section of the HCC that is:

The Crispin Colloquy: Open Forum > Techniques, Crans and Visualizations > Top patterns/stitching

you will find a wonderful step-by-step, pictorial description of how he does these by Jake Dobbins.

[tomo]

DW, Jake,
If I want to do an overlay on an inlay, when do I cut the overlay out?
Do I glue another layer of leather in the overlay colour on top of the project and inlay leather when I do the first cut, so that the one cut goes through the pattern, overlay, inlay, project and manila folder in one cut? Is there any problem with needle deflection going through this many layers?

The overlay is a different colour to the inlay and the original base colour (ie the plug). I was going to remove the plug behind the inlay and set the overlay down into the inlay.

More power to y'awl
T.

[dw]

Tom,

I'm not altogether sure I understand what you are asking...but here goes: When I do multiple layered inlays I usually cut the top layer first, then I use the piece that has been cut out , ie. the "plug" to size and cut the "underlay." And/Or you could simply use another copy of the pattern. Either way, it is the the second copy of the pattern that is used to locate/position the second level cut. And so forth.

Admittedly it is not quite as straightforward as my explanation, simply because each design requires its own strategy.

As for needle deflection, the theory holds that many layers can be cut at once but I do find some deflection...usually resulting in slightly smaller cut outs...and as a consequence seldom cut more than two layers at a time, especially when dealing with leathers thicker than say, 2 ounce at the max.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tomo]

Thanks DW,
That's what I wanted to know.
Moer power to y'awl.
T.

[paul_k]

Tom,

I don't know which end is up, now.
Thanks alot. My head is still spinning from your post.

But I'll sure agree, there's alot of noodeling to inlays, sometime.


PK

[5shot]

I have a quick knife sharpening question.

I don't yet make boots (I hope to pick up DW's book soon), I make holsters. I use a rolled (some call it damp plating) leather that is quite firm, but nowhere near as firm as a sole bend.

My head knife gets dull rather quickly, and I think it might be the angle that I have sharpened the edge to (about 20 degrees).

What angle do you guys/gals prefer to use on your knives?

I have the paper wheels similar to the Razor Sharp system, so changing the angle won't be a huge project if necessary.

Thanks,

John

[bjohnsonleather]

John,
Not a boot maker, but I cut a lot of skirting. Without knowing all the variables, I might think the knife has some to do with you fast dulling. If it has lost temper, has been sharpened past the temper, or was not tempered right to start with, that can lead to premature dulling. I used to use the Razor Sharp system exclusively, and still a bit for some blades. It can be pretty easy to heat one up too much and lose temper on the paper wheels.
I worked in meat packing plants going through school and do have some nondisposable surgery instruments that require resharpening. Kept my leather knives "sharp" for several years. I thought I knew how to sharpen blades. At Sheridan this year I met Herb French. He sharpens tools for a lot of guys in the area and makes some tools. He has a little book for about $10 on sharpening leather tools. Got home and bought some wet/dry sandpaper in different grits, made some more and bigger strops, and learned how easy it is to maintain a sharp blade once you get it to the nines to start with. Can't help you with the angles I use, as it is by feel, but the simple directions in his book about sharpening equipment and putting on primary and secondary bevels make my cutting almost a "look-forward-to" time.

Bruce Johnson

[5shot]

I have always been careful to keep the edge cool, and I don't believe I have ever heated it to the point of losing its temper. The quality of the knife may me in question - it is from Midas, and looks to be of good quality.

Do you have contact information for Herb French?

Thanks for the reply,

John

[dw]

John,

I too use the Razor Sharp system. I think the big thing is just the realization that the "shallower" the angle the sharper the blade. The steeper the angle the longer the edge (however sharp it is) will last.

Personally, I'm a big advocate of "scary sharp." Even if that means sharpening or re-honing more often. I've seen too many boots, saddles, etc. done with dull knives--they all have an element of being a "hack" job.

If your knives are sharp...don't begrudge thenm the frequent buff on the tripoli side of the Razor Sharp. You really don't want to mess with the alternative.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[5shot]

DW -

Do you use the Razor system for all of your honing or do you use a felt or similar wheel between treatments on the Razor system hone?


Thanks,

John

[bjohnsonleather]

John,
Midas makes pretty much entry level leather tools from my experience. I now really suspect the knife. I started with an Osborne (as most probably did), but then got two old Clyde knives in a trade. They are my first-stringers now, ring like a bell on the shoeing anvil, and hold a nice edge. The Osborne could be a pizza cutter and I wouldn't miss it for a while. There are probably others on the forum who have experience with modern knife makers - Bill Buchmann, J Cook, Wayne Jueschke, etc. and hopefully they can share. I have done nothing more than pick those knives up at a show or heard good things about them.
Contact for Herb French I have is ph # (307) 737-2412. They also have his book at Sheridan Leather Outfitters. Pretty simple instructions, for both powered and hand sharpening. DW is right, can't forget to strop. Stropping a mediocre knife more frequently is better than not stropping a good knife enough.
As an aside, How testimonial and commercial can we get on this forum? Just want to make sure I don't step on anybody's toes.

Bruce Johnson

[dw]

John,

I turn wood as a hobby. I have a good selection (and expensive) of high speed steel gouges and chisels. When I started turning seriously, I bought a Woodcraft slow speed grinder--two 8" white wheels--thinking I could write it off for the boot business, as well. Of course, I can burn the edge of a gouge--turn it blue or brown and it doesn't affect the temper (believe it or not--that's what high speed steel is all about). But, even though I use best quality steel knives such as Tina knives, I cannot burn the edge without ruining the knife. So I only use the grinder to shape a knife or, perhaps, totally re-bevel it (once in a long while) and then I am very careful and always have a cup of cold water at hand.

After that the Razor Sharp is used to put the edge on, and to strop the edge, sometimes (with some knives) once every time I pick a blade up. I don't use a felt wheel. I rely on the paper wheel with a honing compound--I've used red rouge, green rouge, white rouge, tripoli and now I'm using a slightly greasy grey rouge that is specifically for steel. I keep the left hand paper wheel loaded with the rouge.

I've got some old Osbourne round knives (they ring) but I use a newer Osbourne head knife to finish breasting the heel. to me it doesn't matter all that much how good the steel is as long as it will take hold an edge for as long as it takes to do the average job I do here. As said a sharp edge is far more important to me than a long lasting edge--long lasting is great for hunting knives and broad swords but for leather tools i just want to be able to cut the leather without hearing it crackle.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Please forgive me if I am "putting in my $.02" wher it don't belong. I am a knife maker. I started at age 15 and I am 62 now. I will be attending Randall Merrill's boot making school starting September 10, 2006. I am still pretty much a spectator to bootmaking. I purchased a singer post machine and I had a Union Special. I have been practicing my stiching and am presently very much humbled by the trials of getting the machine to sew like I want it to. Back to the subject. As a knife maker I have used many tool steels to get the very best product. I am presently using ATS34 (stain resistant) and O-1 tool steel. The ATS 34 is hardened at 1950 Degrees F'.It is quenched in warm oil. In 1970 I learned that soaking the hardened blade on Dry Ice for 48 houres increased the wear resistance nearly 100%. I have a little farm and back when I could haul hay and do the work we leased a ranch and kept about 30 head of beef cows. As part of the calving process we used A.I. in an attempt to get the more superior stock. Part of the A.I process is to keep the Bulls genetic fluid in a liquid Nitrogen canister. By placing either O-2 or ATS34 in the liquid nitrogen after hardening, we increased the wear resistance, durability and edge holding ability way beyond the dry ice treatment. We got out of the cow calf business about ten years ago even though we feed out 3 or 4 calves for our family use. One fall day my then 9 year old grandson was watching the A.I. operation and told me that "that is a dirty filthy habit and you could stop if you tried"

An article in the August 2006 "Knives Illistrated" magazine printed a very scientific article on the use of the liquid nitrogen bath after hardening. (Dr. James Batson, Page 56) where he indicates an improvement of 320% wear resistance for O-2 with only 60% with dry ice. Some of the increas were as high as 560% with liquid nitrogen. After this hardening process the blade must be normalized (tempored) with the O-2 being quenched at about 570 Deg. F. and the ATS34 at about 900 def. F. The color for the O-1 is the reddish mottled color between yellow and blue. Any heat generated below the tempor temprature will have no adverse effect on the steel.

The downside to all of this is that it is extreemly difficult to sharpen a blade after the -320 degree treatment. I use belts containing grit that will cut tungston carbide and I do not leave any shoulder before the edge. I am not sure how all this information will assist you, my friends, but I know how I am going to design and heat treat my personal leather poking and cutting tools.

Now I may have told you more than you wanted to know about tool steel. If I have violated any Icons of the trade please forgive me. If it is Alzhiemers please treat me kindly.

Larry Peterson

[5shot]

Just make sure you make 2 of everything and send me the other half

Thanks to all for the info.

John

[jenny_fleishman]

On the tapes I have, Denes Szabo sharpens his skiving knife on what appears to be an oblong stone carved into the shape of a knife with a round (instead of flat) "blade." He'd swipe his knife on it a couple times before skiving. On the Wilson Gracey tape, the shoemaker would swipe his knife a few times on an oval sharpening stone. Both methods seem very imprecise after all the discussions we've had on sharpening techniques and getting the edge and bevel straight and even!

Has anyone tried sharpening their knife on a curved stone? If so, how does it compare to other methods? Do you think the shoemakers who use the curved stone method aren't as particular about having precisely even blades, or are they just so good that they can achieve that with a few casual-looking swipes?

Jenny

[tomo]

Jenny,
Curved - concave stones come about through (improper?) use, ie not using the whole surface of the stone and it will tend to put a rounded shoulder on the knife.

Bruce, I'd say your knife was loosing its edge because of the quality of the steel, not the angle, a steeper angle holds up better against damage but isn't the best edge for skiving etc.
Larry's point about knives being too hard is valid in that they take longer to sharpen if you damage the blade.

Just remember the rule that the harder the steel is the softer the stone needs to be. The soft stone wears faster and in so doing is always presenting new facets to the steel which hastens cutting (sharpening).

More power to y'awl
T.