Bristling at the very suggestion

[jake]

Hey Chris,

There's no "right" or "wrong" way here. This Forum is a place to share "ideas", and to share problems too.

If we've helped in some small way, good deal! We ALL have something to contribute. If we just could get some of those "ghosts" unlocked from their dungeons, we would be smoken'!

If you encounter any problems, just let us know.

Take care!

[shoestring]

Jake I was on my way to Wal Mart in the morning to get a package of Nylon, now you pluged that up.So where is the best place to get it to make sure it's fresh.And thanks to you all for the good information it's better than the weather report.
Ed

[jake]

Ed,

Gosh....we sure do appreciate the compliments. Glad to be of help.

Now, I'm not saying that you won't find fresh line at Wal-Mart. I just wouldn't bet on it. I would probably do what I did....get online with Cabela's, and order it.

The thing is, fishing line is so cheap, I might try out my local Wal-Mart and give them a try. I guarantee it won't take you long to find out after you get home.

[dw]

Ed,

Jake's advice is good...better safe than sorry. That said, I got my Maxima at WalMart. Brown 40 lb.

I'm really not sure what causes the mono to "lock up." I've let it sit out in the open and I've kept it in a box. It may be sunlight, it may be air, it may just be age...heck, it might be the fumes from the cements we use circulating through the shop. If that's the case I'd hate to see the inside of my lungs.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jake]

Ed,

How did it go today? Did ya get you some at Wal-Mart?

[shoestring]

Jake I chickened out at WAL-Mart I will go to Nichol's Tackle & Gun Shop out in the country,or order from "Cabela" I found their web site last night.
Ed

[dai]

Long Sewing Threads and Breakages

I thought it would be encouraging to other beginners to see someone making a mess in public and getting away with it. Here is a scanner image of a shepherds boot in progress. I broke threads several times, linen 9 cord made up from Barbours No10. Nine cord you say, too thick! -but I used 11 cords of it for stitching down the heel and managed to break that too once.

3088.jpg

Breakages happened near the end of the work, once the threads got to be tired looking. Assuming the thread is good and not decayed somehow then perhaps my awling holes are too small for the thread, or the very long threads I am using are just tired out after pulling four yards of it repeatedly. Rees suggests to use short threads; no more than two holds I think it was. Hold =amount of thread you can pull at once= 1 armlength? For me thats a yard an armlength, so two hold is two yards, so 4 yards altogether, using two arms. 4 yards seems a lot,but the width of the seam decided it.

For sole attachment Golding says stitch the forepart and sew the waist I think. So this means two shorter threads, less wear. Didnt try that deliberately.

How to finish of sewing/stitching welt and sole - Tie knots, just leave it as it is and cut it off? And how to restart sewing/stitching with a new thread where the last thread finished -through the last hole which contains thread, through a nearby new hole, through a hole one stitch distance from the last one?

I had enough breakages to try a few variations. Just leaving the break where it was and carrying on by beginning again through the hole with the broken thread in it worked, and is still holding fast a couple of months in wear later. I presume this is due to:

1. beginners luck
2. small holes relative to thread size
3. very grippy handwax

Your opinions welcomed. I could use artificial fibres for threads I suppose but I like wafting all this linen around for now.

[cmw]

David

A few tips from one beginner to another.

I’m sure you have tried to wax( depending on what you use) the cord from time to time during the process. I’ve found that there is a need for more sometimes. It might be how dry the material you are working with is, that helps decide how often you need more “wax.”

Another thing is never stop while working around the toe or heel. I’ve been told that the rhythm of your work changes and can be seen. it might be best to take some stitches out so you don’t start a new cord in the toe/heel area. I also hear all the time to overlap the stitching 3 stitches when starting a new cord.

A last little tip that comes from a beginner is cheat! I draw a quick line on the vamp where I want the awl to come out. It takes less than a minute to make sure it is straight with a wax/silver pen. Once the line is drawn, pick the boot up hold it straight and eye the line to make sure that the stitches will be straight. Maybe the feather line is not as straight as you would like. First looking down the shoe/boot from the heel then looking from the toe to the heel. You can correct things here.

Beeswax and some rubber removes the wax pen line if it shows it’s face somehow someway.

My stitch size is generally a 1/4 inch. This means a size 10 - 13 takes some time. They always give me the big shoes because I’m still on a set monthly wage. That means I can afford to use time on the people with big feet.

That was a whole lot, I hope some of it helps you.

CW

[marc]

I have a glossary question, totally unrelated to any discussions currently going on. The term "Waxed end" -- when you use this term, do you use it to refer to bristled *end* of the waxed thread, or to the whole thread? (No, there really is a reason for this - I use it to refer to the ends of the thread, and this is how I've been using it in the book I'm writing. There's been some disagreement with this, and I'm checking to see if there are different understandings of the term (as with so many OTHER terms) or if I'm just dead wrong this time (which might also be the case )

Marc

[dai]

Marc

"The term "Waxed end" -- when you use this term, do you use it to refer to bristled *end* of the waxed thread, or to the whole thread?"

There seems to be another usage in some books (Leno, Boot and Shoemaking, 3rd ed, p81, p149) (Hasluck, Boot Making and Mending, 1895, p44, p50), the bit of a thread and bristle that is left over when the sewing or stitching is done, and this leftover "waxed end" used in repairs and bracing. Hasluck(p50) uses the phrase "a piece of waxed end". Here is the phrase in context, describing how to keep the sole positioned when grafting on at the waist: "In either case a small hole can be made in the old leather at H, and a piece of wax-end put through, that it may be drawn down flat onto the top of the heel, securing it there by tying the thread round the nail at A". H is a hole in the waist area of the old sole, A is a nail at the counter point. Elsewhere in their books Hasluck and Leno use the terms thread and bristle. As far as I can see, after a quick look, they do not use the term waxed end except in a repairing and bracing context as above. Plucknett (Boot and Shoe Manufacture,1931,p214) has used the term waxed end once that I can see, and in the sense of "the end where the wax is", in describing thread making.

Due to my novice status and recent extensive thread breaking experiences I have a large waxed end collection (Leno/Hasluck Specification). I use the term waxed end more freely than either thread or bristle since those are just transient phases of the waxed end production process:>)

.

[dai]

Chris

Thank you for your suggestions re thread breakages. Yes, I did find rewaxing the threads during work helpful, and I think it was doing so that eased the problem in the second attempt, now that I recall it.

Point taken about rhythm and evenness of the work. In the little regions where I felt some rhythm I also got even stitching.

Cheating? I wouldn't do it any other way. I have little marks all over the place for guidance. My other cheating is to scan the results in the scanner with the lamp removed then post a very vague image of the outcome. Sorry everyone about the poor image quality.

Size 13s, well thats a lot of ground to cover and keep up the same rhythm. I'm afraid that in my slow learning phase I would probably need a little sleep when I got to the toe.

[marc]

David,

There seems to be another usage in some books (Leno, Boot and Shoemaking, 3rd ed, p81, p149) (Hasluck, Boot Making and Mending, 1895, p44, p50), the bit of a thread and bristle that is left over when the sewing or stitching is done, and this leftover "waxed end" used in repairs and bracing.

This may be why I have the impression that the term means "the ends of the thread", since that's what you have left over. That and the whole "end" thing

Marc

[cmw]

David

Try the silver pen. It really helps. It takes a little more time when you sneak a peak (1-2 sec.) But things stay lined up. You can take the heel as an example. If you don’t sew the welt on straight you will be busy with the rahn file. With a standard shoe it is easier to see if the line is straight just by looking down at it. The problem with the shoes we usually make is they are anything but the usual form.

I measured the shoes that I’m making right now . They are 33 cm/13 inches ) from inseam to inseam. I started(note the word started) stitching the first sole on them today. I get to use one of the smaller wheels on the welt, that means the stitching will take some time tomorrow. If it wasn’t good experience one could call it abuse of an apprentice.

Take care
CW

[dai]

Chris

I'm noting your suggestions. Since I am not really familiar with doing fine handiwork of any sort I am still developing an "eye" for placing markings in the right place and awling/stitching at somewhere near the same marks. Same applies to cutting leather and shaving the lasts, where my idea of a straight line or a curve and Euclid's are quite different. So there is value in all that experience that you are looking forward to tomorrow!

[dw]

I will defer to almost anyone on this question...it has always seemed a bit confusing to me as well. But if you refer to the ends of the made up thread as the "waxed end," what do you call the main body?

I call the whole thing a "waxed end" or, sometimes for folks not as familiar with the teminology, simply as the "thread," and the tips the "bristle ends," or "bristles."

Who knows? It would be interesting to clarify this once and for all.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[marc]

As far as I can see, neither Rees nor Devlin refer to waxed ends, just the thread. Devlin seems to refer to the bristles as the points of the thread (otherwise they couldn't come off the thread). As has been mentioned, Leno seems to be referring to the cut off ends, waxed ends.

I will say (since he hasn't here), Al refers to the whole thread and bristle as the waxed end.

The OED refers to a "roset-end" and describes it as the "the rosined end of a shoemaker's thread."

The OED also lists a "shoemaker's end" as "a length of thread armed or pointed with a bristle; = WAX-END. to pack up one's ends and awls (Sc.): i.e. all one's effects." The earliest date and quotes given for these are: "1598 FLORIO, Lesina, a shooe-makers ende or awle. 1656 MORE Antid. Ath. II. xi. (1712) 74 Two strings like two shoe-makers ends come from the hinder parts of the male."

We also have a tatched-end and tatching-end, but quite honestly I can't find the source for those this evening.

So I have no definate answer one way or the other.

Marc

[marc]

In trying to avoid working on my book this week, I tried some experimentation

3112.jpg

I had some 32 gauge brass wire. In the top example, a 4 inch length has been wound into the thread. In the bottom, an 8" or long length was twisted back over itself to form a "needle". The only problem I've had is that at times the "eye" of the needle will snap, the wire is so thin.

Marc

[mekhaus]

I have also used the twisted wire approach to
making needles. Two things I found useful were:

1- using a pair of wire twisting pliers.
2- using guitar string. It's very strong
for its thickness and can be purchased
in singles of different gauges from a
guitar store.

I have not had the eyelet snap. Once I decide
which gauge works best, I will purchase a
spool of piano wire in that gauge.

Mike

[marc]

This stuff was thin enough that I could twist it with my fingers. It's a little thicker than an actual bristle.

Marc

[erickgeer]

I posted a picture of the metal twisted bristles I make a while ago.

I've yet to try using guitar string, though I would like to try them.

I'll try to explain how I make mine if anyone's interested. I'm feeling at a loss to explain it without pictures.

Marc,
I am curious to how it worked, twisting the cord into the wire like a traditional bristle (did I understand that right?)

I'm in run-on mode, to spare you, I use (I think) 28 gu. Galvanized wire (about a buck-fiftey for a spool). It will be stronger than the brass wire.

Bed Time,

Erick

[marc]

Erick,

Actually, I think it was your pics that bubbled away at my subconscious, since now that you mention it, I think I did see those. Thank you

I went ahead and tried the twisted wire into the thread since that's frequently how I do my bristles -- it's quick, easy and less frustrating for ME than the other methods (they work well for other folks, but drive me nuts ). With the wire it works even better. The wax and the twists all hold nice and tight.

Marc

[dw]

There was a little bit of discussion on this subject (wire bristles) over in Open Forum: Sources: Thread: Archive II: 301-325. As well as some photos of several different types of wire bristle.

I'd like to see a photo of the taw twisted into the twisted wire if that's the way you're doing it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[marc]

This is about as good as my camera will get:

Marc

3119.jpg

[dw]

Marc,

That's very interesting! Good on you. I wouldn't've thunk it.

thanks

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

I have a question that I'm hoping someone (perhaps Jake) can help me with.

I have been hand-sewing an outsole, using 4 strands of linen thread and a very narrow square(?) awl -- the type with a narrow cross-section, designed for sewing outsoles. My problem is that, because this awl makes such a narrow opening, the thread on my bristle keeps getting caught on the opening and sliding down the bristle, requiring me to redo the bristle with annoying frequency. This happens even if I start with a very fine tail on the thread and really rub down the bristled thread -- it doesn't necessarily catch on the very start of the thread, but simply when the thread/bristle becomes a certain diameter which is too big for the opening. I have found that a boar's bristle actually seems to work better here, due to its smaller diameter and greater "grip" on the thread. I don't know if a better hand-wax would do the trick; I'm using some Holt's Thermowax, which is somewhat old and may not be all that grippy -- its ability to stay on the fishing line doesn't seem that great. Obviously, I can make a wider hole, but that doesn't seem desirable for both esthetic and durability reasons, so any thoughts or comments would be welcome.

Thanks,
Lance Pryor