The Crispin Colloquy

cow hide makes kick ass boots. i work construction and land surveying most my life and i have found that cow hide above buffola, elk, and moose is bad ass. i have worn alot of boots.

I am curious if anyone has any experience with suede. I just picked up a real bargain on an Edelman 'Cashmere Calf' hide; however, unlike the Luxe Calf, this has a very soft hand, so I don't think it would be suitable for normal shoe uppers. However, in looking at it, the reverse side has a very nice and fine nap, and the leather doesn't seem be stretchy, plus I know suede was historically called 'reverse calf,' so I've been noodling on whether it could be used as the basis for a suede shoe. I have a few pairs of suede Allen Edmonds, etc., and they seem very supple and soft, so perhaps that is a basic characteristic of suede anyway? I guess most suede today is made from split leather, so again I would think that would change the nature of the leather.

So, if anyone has any experience with suede and can let me know how its feel and characteristics compare to that of regular calfskin, I would be grateful.

I guess the 'gold standard' for suede comes from Charles F. Stead of England (http://www.cfstead.com/), but their website doesn't much guidance/insight.

Thanks for any thoughts/advice.

Lance

Lance,

I had a discussion with Frank Jones at the AGM last week. He told me that suede is not a split but a flesh side prepared leather. Nubuck is a product where ther grain side has been prepared to be like suede. So it is usually of a finer nap.

You do have to watch out for splits offered as suede. I have used split suede on parts of dance shoes that are not stressed so much.


I just ordered a side from http://www.leathersuedeskins.com/index02.html

They have a calf suede. The sample I got looks good and I will report on how I like it once I get some experience.

I am not doubting Frank Jones. If Frank said it then I believe it....but then how is Suede different from Nubuck. Is it just finished with finer nap?

Suede's "show surface" is flesh side, Nubuck show surface is grain side.

I suspect that there's both confusion and some changing definitions at work here.

When I first got into the business I was told that true suede was horse that had been grainside buffed. Nowadays anything that is grainside buffed is called "nubuck." Maybe it always was but that's not the way I remember it.

I have been to several sites...all purporting to be at least somewhat authoritative and connected to the leather industry...that assert that suede is a split.

As far as I'm concerned splits are worthless for shoes or boots. The best part of the leather--the grain--has been split away (sometimes being used for better quality shoes) and what's left has neither the density nor the tensile strength to be reliable. All of that is in the grain layer.

Full grain calf that has been turned fleshside out was always called "rough out" when I began.

The only good suede in today's market is full grain calf that has been curried to present the flesh side rather than the grainside.

Sometimes you can even use a good grade of full grain calf that was intended for use with the grain side out...the fleshside is that good.

That said, I have been looking for a good grade of suede myownself. Thank you for posting that link Rick.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Ok. So the grain side is still in tact but just not the correct side to be seen. But I would imagine that it is sanded or finished further than just turning a regular top grain hide upside down, Is that correct?

Yes, that is the case. Frank said that often hides rejected for defects in their grain side are thrown on the pile to be processed as suede.

Thanks Rick & DW. I did not know that. That is interesting. I wondering what kind of a machine would be used for this process.Would that be like a huge drum sander?

I have a couple of great tan ROO hides. I showed them to my wife and she liked the flesh side!
Anybody have suede kangaroo?
Anything unique on there use?

Kevin,
I frequently use rough-out kangaroo and I like it. My only tip would be the same as for suede--keep it clean. You can't just smear rubber cement on it like a smooth leather. When you need to cement something to the rough-out side, mark your pattern on and then use a small paintbrush to carefully "paint" the rubber cement into just the area where you need it.

Lisa

I just received some kangaroo liner from Hardtke. I love it! I've been using Hardtke calf liner for awhile now. It's very nice too but a bit thicker than I'd like for shoes. Reasonably priced too.

The roo is very thin and strong. I wish it was veg tan. I like to have my shoes with only veg touching the feet but I guess I can't have everything.

What is a good source for Ostrich these days?

I visited Pan American Leathers last month in Manhattan and was impressed by not only their selection, but also the suppleness and quality of their exotics. Since I am not a user of exotics, I do not know how their pricing or timing compares to others. However, what appeals to me about this company was how quickly they responded to my request for cuttings of bison, and much of the leather they sell is tanned right here in America (New York, even).

http://www.panamleathers.com/products.php
Ted Solomon 516-313-8177

I just ordered some real expensive french calf, now I need some lining.
I looked at the garlin neumannbone cow, what do you guys recomend?

Thanks,
Courtney

For shoes, I'd would (and do) use some milled veg calf lining. Waterhouse has it. If you're blocking...say for a jodhpur or a whole cut, the milled works terrific and ends up looking like a fine grade of lining kip.

Or perhaps some veg kangaroo. Hardtke?

Or a lightweight English lining kip. Waterhouse again or Siegal of CA.

For coloured linings I have even used burnishable buffalo (very nice but a little heavy) from Garlin Leathers. They have a new type of burnishable that may be lighter but not in "normal" colours--that may be a good thing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

DW are Siegal still in business? I heard they weren't and even an issue of ShopTalk said they no longer were? I use to get leather etc off them.

Tom,

I don't know I have never dealt with them. I just knew that at one time they carried a fair grade of English lining kip.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Try these contact emails.
Sometime about a year ago after some health issues Siegel relocated to be close to family on the East Coast and changed the business model.

Those of us who were part of their email list, get alerts about availabilities of special leathers and tools, particularly bookbinding leathers, saddle skirting, specialized kids, goats, velum and vegetable tanned leathers.

I believe Stephen is a consultant still within the leather industry and particularly knows how to source various leathers.

Hopefully he'll post here and update us all, far more accurately than my memory

siegel.leather@gmail.com
s.siegel@siegelofca.com

Thanks D.W.,
I looked at the waterhouse site and saw some veg milled lining leather, it was 42 sq. ft., so I dont think it could be calf? is that the stuff?

Courtney

Courtney,

It might be. It never was baby calf. And I think that 'legally" they can call it calf until nearly full grown.

Talk to Peter Bentley...call him, don't rely on just what you see on his webpage...and ask for the 2.5 ounce milled veg calf. It's a natural rosey bone colour.

Either way it is good and it is relatively inexpensive.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I'm using this leather on a couple of pair right now. And I'm charmed by the stuff!

Courtney, when veg is milled it loosens up all the fibers and it becomes much more stretchy. I can easily see 7-8 feet being added to the overall spread. You will too when you get "a holt" of a piece.
Trust. You won't be sorry.
Paul

Just ordered some of this milled veg from Waterhouse. Been looking for a good lining leather and this seems like just the ticket.

Thanks for the heads-up fellas.

-Nat

Anyone know where to get genuine red Morocco? What is the URL for Waterhouse?

Cheers,

JesseLee

Here ya go JesseLee:
http://waterhouseleather.com

-Nat