Great Leather!

[das]

Tom,

Thanks. Browsed the site, but no joy.

Anybody else have a lead on "Bay Apache" or "Crazy Horse" leathers?

[cldpsu]

Greetings,

I'm new here and have been reading some material on shoe making which I purchased from Tim Skyrme.

I would like your opinion on some choices from Warkov-Safeer. I'm looking to buy some 6/8 oz. insole shoulder and perhaps some ready made soles and heels to spend little and get a feel for the leather. However, I notice the the butt ends are described as being "excellent for heel-counters and build ups". I was under the impression that the heel counters along with the side counters, toe puffs and welt strips were to be cut from a sole belly weighing around 5-6 oz. What use could I expect from a 5-6 oz. sole belly for a fine dress shoe? Also, a few pages back there's mention of Milton Sokol's double shoulder or "welt shoulder" used for the welt. What does double mean exactly?

I understand some people prefer different weight soles depending on the job. My choices are a 6/8 oz. insole shoulder and about a 14 oz. (10.5 iron) sole. At the lightest I think I would go with a 9 iron for the sole.

Thank you for the help and I look forward to learning from everyone.

[cldpsu]

I apologize for the split message, but I forgot to mention that Macpherson Leather sells calf in a natural finish which I might like to try so I can play with Fiebing dyes. Do you prefer dyeing leather yourself or is there something special about the dyeing process done by a tanning company?

Any other sources for a natural finish would be great to have. Thank you.

[dearbone]

Cristian,

I buy both shoulders and sole bends from warkov,the pre-cut soles are good leather,but they come in size 12 or 14, so if you are making a size 8, there will be some leather wasted,their 6/8 insole shoulder is really 6 oz and their 8/10 oz is 8oz and so forth,you might be better of with 8oz shoulder for man's welted shoes,it is good to have both weights of the shoulders, welt and heel counters are cut from the same shoulders,belly might be too stretchy for the two,The butt of the bends can be used for heels.

Nasser

[cldpsu]

Nasser,

Thanks for the reply. I wear a size 13 shoe so that sounds perfect. Could I use the belly for anything then such as the toe puff or side counters, or are they cut from the butt or the shoulder?

[chuck_deats]

FWIW, I also wear a size 13. Found pre-cut outsoles marginal in length depending on toe style. Have to be real careful positioning them at best. Get at least one for a pattern.
Chuck

[dearbone]

Cristian,

Yes, Belly can be used for side lining and toe puffs,better yet if you can split/skive them to 2 or 3 oz,It also makes a good inseam cavity filler as a substitute for cork,butt is too heavy for toe puffs and side lining or even heel counters.

Nasser

[dearbone]

I will worry a little using belly for side lining because of the amount of loose fibers/stretch in the belly leather to be used for a very stressful part of the shoe/boot, I personally use chrome leather scraps usually of lining leather scraps for side lining.

[cldpsu]

Thank you for the replies. I'll try that as a cork substitute some time.

[dw]

Here is a lovely black and white photo essay...with sound...on Baker leather company--the last oak bark tannery in the UK.

Some interesting factoids implied in the essay: Oak back leather is light weight (presumably compared to other tannages such as chestnut). Oak bark tanning takes longer. No one knows when the tannery was started.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[dw]

Here's a colour video of the Baker tannery. And we get to meet Andrew Parr in this one.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[dearbone]

DW,

Thank you for sharing those videos,great leather,Big sigh! I can't just go to the tannery or call to order some with my small order of few bends and shoulders,having said that, I worked in Scotland with a shoe maker on making 150 pairs( for stores) using baker shoulders,caps and soles,They were McKay stitched which made a good flex-able sole leather hard as wood, smells good and cuts like butter when mellow. Thanks again.


Nasser

[bdadamovicz]

I've just found that Weinheimer Leather is just about a 20min drive from where I'm stationed here in Germany. I've read that Janne seems to like their products but does anybody else have a prospective to share.

I'm just starting out and know very little. I have some experience with other leather work but shoe and boot making is my new goal. At least I know a bit about the terminology and feel of leather, but I'm still a first week rookie compared to most here. So what should I look for in terms of the feel and hand, I know grain or texture is up to me. Also that I don't want it too stretchy or boardy. I'm guessing I'm looking for a nice firm hand that has a bit of a soft feel to it, but that is what I'm taking from having read most the posts here.

So would it be worth my time to go take a look, or are y'all going to try to get me to go get some for ya and ship it on the cheap. Gotta love having an American address in Europe. Needless to say I've got a feeling I'll need to buy a bunch while I'm over here and send it back home for future use.

[dearbone]

BD,

welcome to the colloquy,Of course it is worth your time to go visit the Weinheimer leather if you are planning to be a shoe/boot maker,I heard they carry good calf leather, a favorite of this shoe maker,hard to tell without seeing it,send us(in pictures) some samples of their calf leather if you visit them.

Nasser

[lancepryor]

Weinheimer is the successor to the famed Freudenberg Leather, which was perhaps the best shoe leather in the world when it was tanned in Germany; I believe their leather is now tanned in Poland, but it is still reputed to be a high quality product made using the same techniques and some of the same equipment. Definitely worth a visit. Would love to know what their prices are like at the Weinheimer location.

Lance

[romango]

Before I order more insole shoulder from Warkov-Safeer, has anyone located another source for insole shoulder in the US?

[dw]

Given that it costs an arm and a leg to bring Warkov-Safeer to Oregon...what with shipping and customs and so forth;

given that I have some slight issues with the temper of the W-S;

given that Baker insole shoulders are the best in the world;

and that Baker will sell one shoulder at a time, can ship Fex Ex or UPS and that the "customs and so forth" are unlikely to be significantly more coming from England;

the next time I need insole I'm ordering from Baker.

That said I think one needs to anticipate a bit.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[lancepryor]

Rick, DW:

The Bakers is certainly the 'gold standard' for hand made shoes, AFAIK.

One thing to consider is that in addition to shoulders/bends, Bakers also sell their leather pre-cut into appropriately sized rectangles (I think this is how most of the London firms buy it). While perhaps less economical in terms of purchase price than an entire shoulder/bend, the advantage of these pieces is the efficiency of packing/shipping. Whereas shipping the bends/shoulders is very expensive, given their bulk, the pre-cut leather can be packaged very efficiently.

I calculated that a box 18 x 18 x 13 could hold 98 pounds of leather, which in turn would contain all the Bakers leather needed (insole, outsole, heel lifts, stiffeners, welts) for about 40 pairs of shoes, or insoles/outsoles for 60 pairs, or insoles for 150 pairs. This package can be shipped via FedEx or UPS for a fairly reasonable cost, relative to shipping the bulky bends/shoulders, most likely more than making up for any difference in initial price vs. the bends. Plus, you're not paying to ship the flanky/marginal sections of the bends/shoulders across the Atlantic.

Further, the cost of shipping a box like that is pretty much linear to its weight, so ordering a smaller amount in a smaller box won't cost you much more in shipping cost per unit of weight. So, if you want to buy a smaller quantity, the same basic math should work.

Given the hassle of international shipment of the bends, this is a much easier approach.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Wow! What a good idea! Have you done this? Any idea what such a box of goodies would cost, all told?

The only drawback I can see is that sometimes, in the boot business, you need insoles that are approaching 18 inches long (or longer...size 14 lasts with a box toe). But I guess you could keep something longer or even from a different source for these, rare, circumstances.

Will Baker cut insoles 18 inches long?

Baker insole shoulder would make terrific heel and toe stiffeners, as well.

If I didn't have 21 October issues on my plate I'd email Andrew right now and find out what they'd be willing to do in terms of sizes and so forth.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[lancepryor]

DW:

Bakers actually offers separate heel lift and 'stiffener' strips; the heel lift strips are less expensive per pound than the prime (insole and outsole) strips. The stiffener strips are about the same price per unit weight but have the advantage of being split thinner, so you would have less waste than starting with the thicker strips for stiffeners.

Here are the weights of some I have (prices omitted due to HCC non-profit rules):

Oak bark cut soles 10/11 iron £X.XX pr. (weighs about 15 oz/pair)
Oak bark cut insoles 7 iron £X.XX pr. ( weighs 10 oz)
Oak bark cut stiffeners 5 iron £X.XX pr. (6.6 oz)
Heel lifts 7/8 iron £X.XX pr. (7.5 oz)
Cut welts 1.25 x 22" 3mm. £X.XX ea. (1.25 oz)

The strips I have (insole, stiffeners, and heel lifts) are all 13 inches long, and vary in width. The outsole strips may be a bit longer.

I imagine you could get some cut longer as needed.

Anyone else interested in the pricing information, just let me know and I can e-mail it to you.

Lance

[courtney]

I have asked before and got a couple responses about upper leather.

I am looking for some good cowhide for uppers.

I know that the burnishable buffalo was recomended, and of course cow calf, but what about just regular cowhide?

I know the Edelman luxe can be found on ebay sometimes but I have yet to see plain black.

What I want is 3-4 oz. black smooth cowhide, where can I get some good and hopefully not super expensive?

Thanks,
Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on October 18, 2011)

[courtney]

Nobody uses cowhide?

Courtney

[romango]

Courtney,

Of course, calf is just younger cow. Calf hides and sides can be quite large too!

I usually look for calf as it has a finer grain and less defects. But it's all the same animal.

[dw]

The Edelman is calf.

Cowhide is coarser, more open grained, stretchier, and apt to be scarred and/or warble bit.

Most makers use calf for dress or even semi-dress shoes/boots and reserve the cowhide for work boots or rough "country" shoes.

Both "cow calf" and burnishable buffalo (if they're coming from the same source) are significantly cheaper than calf. Probably not much more expensive than cowhide especially if you are buying from a jobber.

Edelman Luxe is more than $20.00 a sq. ft. if you are not buying seconds, order over-runs, or remnants. And as good as it may be, that is what you're getting on Ebay.

French calf from Hardtke or GH leather is a third that price.

And buffalo calf is less than that.

Really, there is no reason to use cowhide unless you both get it at a "steal" and are not emotionally invested in the end result.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[luckyduck]

Courtney,

Hartke Leather in El Paso has some Missouri Calf that is reasonably priced and rather cow sized on the hides. It is a browns and black color family.

This is the what I use on boot feet unless they want a crazy color.

Paul