Great Leather!

[gshoes]

Paul,

Heres a vegtanned carved hat. I'm just a beginner but I am having fun.

Geri

6978.jpg

[chuck_deats]

Jenny,

I normally get kangaroo from Sheridan in Wyoming and calf from GH in Houston. Both are excellent quality and nice people to deal with. Neither is inexpensive. A quick keyword search will get phone numbers for both.

Chuck

[paul]

Jenny (and others),

I've settled on Stevenson-Paxton and GH Leathers for mine.

Here is the link to The Big Book, by Shop Talk Magazine.
http://www.proleptic.net/products/view/12
I've used this as a guide through the "resource search". And other trade publications help as well, like Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal.(And I have no financial connection with any of these, well outside of staying current, that is).

And, of course, the Colloquy is a wonderful tool too. Learn to use the search feature here too.
But the process of searching is educational. A great side benifit. Some even view it as earning our way in.

Your're doing a great job, to stay with it so long. Glad to have you amounst us.

Paul

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, all. I already have swatches from Sheridan and Charles Hardtke. Having sticker shock, though. I feel my skills are not up to the really expensive leather yet.

I just talked to Garlin-Neumann and they are mailing me swatches of all sorts of stuff. They have everything BUT kangaroo!

I'll contact the other places, too. Had never heard of GH Leathers before.

Jenny

[paul]

Geraldine,

Cool Chambeau! (is that how you spell that? Actually, I may have misspelled several words here, but pleaze excuse)
But yeah! I like your hat! I can see it on a walk in the woods. Well, that's easy for me because I live in the middle of a huge Poderosa Forest! God I Love It! It's snowing right now!

ANyway, yes! That's the kind of thing one could do with this leather.

And nope! The foot is Garlin Neuman Softy Water Buffalo.

And as to the cuts, I used my 1/4" swivel knife blade on this 4 to 5 ouce leather. I just didn't bear down with it. I did bevel pretty heavy, for the diffenition, but with illustration board rubber cemeted to the back, one can work it like it's 8 ounce!
BYW, the illustration board that is prefered is Cresent's Hot Press Illustration Board. Because of the 'hot pressing', when the leather is pulled free from the cardboard, it leaves just a bit of flesh behind, rather than it sticking to the leather and peeling off a layer of paper. Which can, by the time you've scraped and peeled it all off, spoil the surface of your tooling on the grain side. And although this doesn't happen on this leather because of the milling feature, it should be considered nonetheless. Good habits, and all that.

By "turning it against itself", I mean as you've done with the seam on your hat, an inverted seam only with side welt. The difference is that boot top turning involves a 'tube' that has to be dealt with. Stressful on the grain side of any kind of leather, with any kind of creative process applied.

And as for your question about lasts, whew! I'll have to get back to you. That's a whole 'nuther "of fish".
For the time being suffice it to say, that the difference is in the cone at the back of the heel. A pull on boot needs to be more open for the foot to slide in, and then choke down on the instep to hold it on the foot. But there's oh so much more, right fellows?

Back to the bench,

Paul

[gshoes]

Paul,

Thanks so much for your feedback on the hat. You are far to genorous with the compliments, but I will take them anyway.
When you referred to the seam on my hat in explaining how the boot is turned on itself can you please tell me which one you are referring too. I am having a hard time visualizing it.

As far as the boot lasts being different from the shoe last, you really threw me there too. I was thinking when I asked the question that I already knew the answer. I figured it had something to do with having the Long heel dimension be larger than on a shoe last. Wow! Just when I think that I don't know nothing someone shows me that I knew less than that.

I am sure that you could write a whole book on the subject.

I will take the puzzle pieces as they are handed out to me. Each little bit that I get is so so sweet.

Thanks Everyone,
Geri

[paul]

My book would not be legible, believe me. And it would be filled with conjecture and possibilities. Working with leather, for me, is like shooting at a moving target. But thank you.

First of all, I've discovered by my search, it's chapeau. My sincerest apologies to those who knew better and were sittin' there just a squirmin' about my spelling.

On second view of your hat I might be wrong there too. It's hard to tell exactly how you did that top seam. What I'm trying to express is when boot tops are closed, in the traditional side seam construction, right sides are stitched together first. Then it needs to be turned right side out. This is the tramatic part, that turning.

Here is an inside view of a side seam.

6986.jpg

That seam in there had been outside, after stitching and turning it's now inside. See?
Even this boot needs to be treed somemore, as the tops are a little rough yet from the turning. This was that milled vegtan.

As for lasts, I'm still figuring it out too! But measurements from the foot relate to the foot being in the boot, the fit, an obvious function of the last also. However a boot last also has to accomodate the action of getting in and staying on. That's my take in it. More than a few of us have altered shoe lasts to allow a foot to pass into the boot by building out the back of the cone to allow the foot to pass in. That's not to say it's a good thing, tho. But a shoe last will usually be much more constricted at the back of the heel to help it stay on in stride.

Can somebody help me out here, or at least confirm my ramblings? Maybe it should even be moved to the last thread.

Puzzel pieces, is right!

Paul

[amuckart]

Geraldine,

If you have a look back through the archives of the topic 'one "last" question' there is a discussion there about the differences between boot and shoe lasts that might answer some of your questions about the differences. It may also raise a lot of questions, it did for me though I haven't had time to pursue them, but constant learning is the beauty of this place.

[jenny_fleishman]

Just got a bunch of swatch cards from Garlin Neumann. They seem to sell everything but kangaroo! I am considering buying either some calfskin, or some buffalo. Can anyone address the pros and cons of calfskin vs. buffalo (aside from appearance), such as tensile strength, durablity, ease in lasting, etc.? Has anyone used their metallics for shoes? Thanks for any info!

Jenny

[aaronhirsch]

So, as far as I can tell, the premium source for sole leather is Joh. Rendenbach. I haven't found a manufacturer of leather for the uppers who stands out from the rest. Any ideas out there? And where to buy such leather?

Thanks.

Aaron

[lancepryor]

The other premium supplier of soling leather is Baker & Sons of England, whose product is 100% oak bark tanned. It is a bit softer and easier to sew than the Rendenbach, according to those who've sewn both. This is more relevant for those who hand sew their outsoles than people who use a Landis, etc.

Upper leather comes from many places. Good upper leather is made by tanneries in Annonay, France (http://www.tannerie-annonay.fr/en/contenu-societe.htm) and the successor to Freudenberg, who now tan their leather in Eastern Europe (formerly this was done in Germany) -- http://weinheimer-leder.com/weinheimerleder/index.html

The knowledgeable folks who post here can point you to good domestic suppliers of calfskin.

[aaronhirsch]

Thanks for the tip on Baker & Sons. I'm starting with hand tools only, so I think I'll go with them.

Anybody know where I can buy Tannerie D'Annonay and Weinheimer products in the US?

[aaronhirsch]

BTW, does anybody on the Colloquy tan their own hides?

[romango]

I'd like to alert Colloquy members to some great lining leather I have ordered several times from
Brettuns Village Leather at http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/sides.htm Look for "Tan Liner Sides".

This is a thin leather but very consistent and not too stretchy, much as they describe. I think it is well suited to shoes. Maybe a little light weight for boots. Also, a nice light weight for woman's shoes.

It has a fuzzy or nappy finish that customers always comment positively on.

An additional note about Brettuns Village.. They have an odd collection of stuff but are very reliable and I have never been disappointed. Free shipping too! I have no connection to them, I just pass this on.

[dw]

On another note, the best insole leather readily available in the US is, in my opinion, the double shoulders that Stevenson-Paxton is bringing in. I don't know of another source, domestic or import, with the exception of Baker in the UK, that even produces insole shoulders.

If you haven't tried any of the S-P insole shoulders, you are missing out on the kind of strength, ease of inseaming, and ability to make a footbed, that no other cut of leather provides.

Believe me, nothing I have run across being offered as insole leather or cut insoles, regardless of the tannery or source, comes close...and most of what is being offered is just outsole leather anyway (even if they call it "insole" ).

And the S-P is reasonable. Affordable...even for those snipping pennies.

And yes, I'm boosting it. I hope members will support Dave Foster at Stevenson-Paxton...if this source dries up we are all going to be either going back to outsole leathers (flinty, short-fibered and hard) or we will have to order from Baker.

BTW, I have been making toe boxes and heel stiffeners (for shoes) from S-P insole shoulder. It is great. And allows you to use every bit of the margins of the shoulder.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

How thick are these double shoulders insole from Stevenson-Paxton? years ago i remember we used to get some real good US tanned shoulders,but suddenly discontinued. Does Mr Dave Foster has a site or phone number somewhere?

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

About 10+ iron. I split them to make insoles for shoes...and even more for toe boxes and heel stiffeners....but they make good insoles for boots, as is.

Stevenson-Paxton Sales
12-E Pamaron Way
Ignacio, CA 94949

(800) 648-1622

Ask for Dave Foster

And tell him I sent you...I don't get a commission or anything but that way he will know that you got this reference from the Crispin Colloquy.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

PS...

Dave Foster is one of the nicest and most honest and most-willing-to-go-out-of-his-way-for-you guys in the business.

He has hunted down leathers for me that I couldn't find anywhere else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

Thank you, Found their site and sent him an email,but this sounds really good if you can get toe boxes and stiffeners out of the splits.

Nasser

[sorrell]

I use the Stevenson-Paxton insole shoulders also, and they are definitely the best thing available. I was about to get really depressed about insoles before I found them.

Lisa

[paul]

I'm really depressed because he told me the other day he was out of it for now!

Paul

[dw]

Yes, it's about three weeks out, from what I understand.

Thing is guys, in this kind of economy it's hard to keep a stock of materials that we may not use everyday, but it's even harder for someone like Dave to anticipate demand.

I've got dibs on four of those coming in (even if I don't need it) and try to never get down below two on hand before I order again.

So what happens when this new shipment comes in and sells out entirely within a week or so? That's how fast Dave says it goes. Get your orders in ahead of time, I say. That way Dave can keep the shipments coming.

We take it for granted...he's in the leather business and therefore he'll have leather. But like I said, in this economy no one can afford to deal in futurities especially in large lots and/or many different items.

Dave is the only one bringing in these shoulders...if you use them, you depend on him. He needs to know what kind of demand there is and how consistent it is gonna be.

I've even been thinking about pre-paying when I place an order.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

I will second the praise for Stevenson-Paxton insole shoulders. I consider them to be the "secret" of my shoes. They also work well for toe boxes and heel counters. These guys are struggling. We'll miss them when they're gone.

A note about cushioning... I'm quite interested in this topic. I have found the following: With my high tech running shoes, when worn as shoes, my plantar facitis flares up. I don't get this with my SP insole shoes.

I believe there is a certain illusion of comfort from cushioning that is misleading. As my physical therapist says, our feet were evolved to walk on hard surfaces. Swimming around in comfortable foam could be a recipe for trauma.

Having said that, I prefer a thin Poron layer in my dance shoes. I consider this layer to be pretty minimal compared to most commercial shoes but it seems to be better for the constant impact of dancing.

My conclusion is that very minimal cushioning is good for high impact activities, such as dancing and running, but a good veg-tan insole is the best thing for general walking and other daily use.

Customers will understandably desire cushioning but I think it is our job to educate them to the false allure inherent.

[big_larry]

If I may,

I use the Stevenson-Paxton shoulders and I really like them. One thing that I will share with all. When I first started using them I was a bit bewildered because they were a bit stiff. Not a problem! I use a spray bottle and dampen the holdfast when awling and sewing on the welt. This leather is really fine stuff to work with and the price is less than 1/3 of what we paid for the Baker. (And I love Baker)

I am now "spoiled" and I don't want to go back to saddle skirting.

D.W., Thank you for the referal!

Larry Peterson HCC Member

[dw]

Larry, all,

Don't thank me...I'm selfish, I look out for my own interests. If S-P goes under for lack of business or because folks don't know how good the insole shoulders are or how genuinely good a guy Dave Foster is, I lose. I won't have anywhere I can get insole shoulders and that means that the quality of my boots will go down or the price I pay for insoles will triple.

Yes, I love the Baker too. If it were available domestically there would be no question which I would use...price be damned.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind paying the extra for Bakers (you can always just pass that on to the customer) but what with the delays that come about from ordering and arranging payment and the further delays that come from shipping and customs and customs brokerage, it is not unimaginable that you could be without Baker insole shoulder for literally months waiting on a shipment.

As Rick suggested, "these guys are struggling" everybody is, that's true. But we have it in our power to maybe...just maybe...keep them from passing into fond memory. All they need...all they want...is business. All they need from us is a little faith and investment--an investment that is really in ourselves as much as in them.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member