Bottoming techniques

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#76 Post by relferink »

All,

I don't think that crepe is such an annoying material to work with. It has it's own set of “rules” if you will, the wet knife, use a new rough grinding belt and grind it only to prepare the surface for bonding. As soon as you start using your grinder to take a serious amount of material away you will find yourself in trouble. I never tried finishing it with the trimmer but think that the crepe is too soft and elastic and catch on the trimmer, this will send it flying taking your shoe with it.

Speaking mostly from a makers perspective I admit that repairing shoes with crepe is much harder than making a new pair and I will try to get out of such a job where possible.
I have had the benefit of working on European build, orthopedic machines. They are much more open in order to accommodate tall lasts and have separate dust collection systems that can be turned off and dust collection ports that can be blocked. This would prevent balls from building up inside the machine and being launched by the grinding belt. I understand how such an event would warrant a change of drawers. Image

I'm a little too young to have owned a pair in the 70's but know there is just nothing quite like a pair of real crepe soles.

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#77 Post by dw »

Guys,

Since I will welt only to the breast of the heel, I am intending to add a heel seat and a full length midsole of leather...maybe 6 iron. I will probably machine stitch the midsole to the forepart of the welt, handstitch it to the waist. Then peg the heel seat.

So...then... how do I bond the plantation crepe (PC) to the leather midsole? Rob says that cements will only make the bond weaker. I was thinking about trying to dissolve some scraps of PV in solvent. I believe this is how the original rubber cement was made--natural gum rubber dissolved in naptha.

Seems to me that if it worked, it would be the perfect bonding agent for the PC. ??

I like the feel of PC under me...nothing feels quite as springy and resilient, and it never compresses so it never looses that springiness.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#78 Post by artzend »

All

There is something no one has mentioned yet, and that is to keep crepe away from petroleum products because it melts, the same as it does when left in the sun, or in a cupboard too long.

If you want a heel of crepe on a crepe sole then just grind and place together while warm. That's how they were done in the 70s.

Natural rubber cement is not much good for a bond. Contact cement is the only thing to use when attaching the sole to anything else.

Also I don't think you would like the finish on the edge DW. I never did find out how to make it look nice. It was always rough and ugly.

Tim
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#79 Post by dearbone »

Hi All,

I am glad to hear, I am not the only one not fond of the genuine plantation crepe for reasons mentioned above,however the newer crepe made with synthetic elastomers is an improvment, better to work with than the ginuine crepe which is unvulcanized rubber,hence the hardness in the cold,softness in the heat and the poor abrasion resistance.

Regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#80 Post by djulan »

HI DW,
I have come to appreciate genuine plantation crepe, after understanding it better. Paul,I too put crepe repairs off till it was unbearable. But I had a slew of clients with Wallabees in the 70’s and 80’s, so had to solve the riddle of removing material, and bonding the geniuine crepe.
Removing is easy, and you are right, Paul. Just dip your sharp long knife in water frequently while cutting. Lift the cut material from the uncut as you go. It is not quite like "cutting butter", but manageable.
There are a few secrets to bonding I discovered, but all so simple it is hard to believe. The first clue is rubber cement - the old type that was made with plantation crepe trimmings thrown into a bucket of solvent, naptha or the like, in many shops. (Rubber cement sticks to itself!)
Try this: take two pieces of genuine crepe and sand one surface of each piece then immediately hammer (or press) the sanded surfaces together before they cool. You will not be able to seperate them after hamering! No cement or chemicals needed when bonding crepe to crepe! The bond is incredibly strong if you join two the virgin crepe surfaces while still warm from sanding. There is a chemical method of bonding crepe to crepe, but results of the above method are so good, I stopped experimenting with chemicals. I prefer to stitch a 4 iron crepe midsole to the shoe and then sand and bond the the crepe sole to the crepe midsole as described.
Okay that was easy. Now you want to bond genuine crepe to another material - leather midsole, or neoprene/ composite midsole. Attach the midsole to the shoe. Then apply two coats of simple, thinned rubber cement (not AP cement- sorry Tim) to that midsole, allow drying between coats (no cement on the genuine crepe). Now sand the surface of your genuine crepe soles and while still warm from sanding press/hammer it to the previously rubber cemented midsole. Using rubber cement on the midsole works better on a leather midsole than a composite midsole. But in any case, the rubber cement's open time is of the essence. Don't let it over dry nor bond while green.
The crepe can be hard or soft. If hard, it can be softened by warming it in an oven, which will render it more like the old stuff we knew.
I use 24GRIT without the blower running, it is heavy enough to fall and this avoids the situation Paul described. For a finished edge,shape with 24 grit then take a pass with a 40 or 60 grit. Then press the sanded edge with your fingers while still warm from sanding, this will smooth it nicely. Load the welt brush with heel ball (yankee wax) to color the sole edges. Apply color to the sole edge with light pressure, frequently reloading the brush.
Hope that helps. My experience may be a little different from other's, but this is what I found to work, really well.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#81 Post by relferink »

David,

My experience is much the same. Do you find there is much difference between commercially available rubber cement and dissolved plantation crepe? One note I may add is to place the midsole flesh side to the crepe and rough very well so there is a lot of bonding surface between the fibers. Don't use a loose fibered midsole but I don't think DW would anyway.

Thanks for the tip to use the welt brush to color the sides, I usually leave them alone as it's hard to get color on evenly. I will try the brush the next opportunity I get.

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#82 Post by djulan »

Robert,
Honestly, I never got past experimentation with home made rubber cements dissolved in that bucket in the corner. I HATE chemicals, and have for a long time. But I heard of this from the old timers and trust they knew the right combinations of solvents to plantation crepe scraps to get their desired results. I have chosen to use commercially available rubber cement avoiding open containers of solvent based products in my shop. Though I have a ventillation system to be proud of.
The coloring with the welt brush requires a little practice. You want to move the working edge in the same direction as the brush rotates (down) so as to be applying color and not melting the crepe. That is why the brush needs frequent loading.
I forgot to mention that you can collect all the plantation crepe rubber debris from under the sanding wheel and form it into the bounciest rubber ball since Verner Hertzog. It won't bounce straight though usually, so makes a great workout!
David
BTW Plantation crepe is a good shock absorber for a fused ankle, when you do not want to use S.A.C.H.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#83 Post by dw »

Just a quick thanks to all who offered advice and tips and speculation. I got some good ideas...not the least of which came in a phone call. The idea was to do a hand McKay type stitch through the midsole into and through the heelseat and insole. Do this in lieu of nailing or trying to rely on pegging. Might so it through the crepe too.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#84 Post by dearbone »

DW,

As far as i am concerned, no one was speculating in regagrds to your question,on how to attach crepe to leather,I really like to know what you considered to be speclation? I am travling to the north of Canada,into the woods and the black mosquitos,leaving tommorow morning,so you all have a good weekends and a good 1st of July Canada Day.

regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#85 Post by dw »

Nasser,

By some lights it was all speculation. Image

What do I consider speculation? Well, most of what I proposed to do was speculation simply because I was just throwing out ideas that, while having many years of experience behind them, I wasn't actually putting into practice currently...or even recently.

Each and every project...for me, at least...is new or has elements that are new. I might have done something similar a half a hundred times but just by virtue of the fact that each pair of shoes or boots is unique...or, more to the point, that I've never made a pair of saddle shoes before...compels me to feel that the better part of wisdom is to work as many real and/or imagined problems out in my mind before actually beginning. "Measure twice, cut once."

All of that is speculation, in my book...whether I actually speak it out-loud or no. I think most of us that were involved in this conversation...and who were not currently working on a pair of saddle shoes with a Plantation Crepe as a proposed soling material...were to some extent speculating. But I can only speak for myself.

Hope that answers your question.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#86 Post by paul »

I agree with DW. But we're just talkin' here. Nobody is being singled out.
I've had thoughts along these lines myownself.

I like to tell my customers that I make it up as I go along. And that many of the things I make, I've never made before. In some way, it's going to be different every time. But it's still about the fundamentals. The how to's and why's. And I'm confident to admit that. The interesting thing is, I came to this confidence as a result of working over my insecurities of my way of being.

Admittedly DW is better at putting these thoughts to words, and that's because he wants to be able to verbalize the reasons. He's a teacher. And he's cut out to be our webmaster.

Me, I'm a palaborator, (when I'm in the mood). I like pinning down some interested person and doing the "Paul Show", my interpretation of educating folks about the process of what I do for them. SO I may go on about the choices I'm facing. For me it's like "measure twice, cut once" in words. Sometimes I hear myself say something that relates but I've not thought before.

I'm sure it's a result of the cumulative experience of 25 years of shoe repair. I know that in repair it may be different every time I open it up, and it's all going to have to go back together. So I would review the options. Many times right there at the counter with the customer.

I'm sure it even looked like speculation sometimes.

So, I'll admit it. I'm a speculator too!

Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#87 Post by relferink »

David,

Do you vent to the outside world or use activated charcoal filters for you ventilation system?
When you finish the edge with your finger do you need to wet your finger to get a smooth result?

The crepe balls are vary bouncy. It used to be great fun to take one to school occasionally.Image (unless you got caught with it)

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#88 Post by relferink »

Discussion on fume venting continued in Around the shop
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#89 Post by dearbone »

Good morning and happy to be back with you again,i think we have a definition problem in regard to the word,"Speculate", According to the Oxford dictionary,it is "To form opinions about something without having definite knowledge or evidence".
another word, speaking from the top of the head, Now, how is it that our practical experiences and scientific research in regard to the crepe rubber being called speculation? that was all i was asking,so when the subject of the crepe rubber came up,i read an entire chapter on rubber and it's history in America and my own practical experience just to avoid speculation and that is out of my high respect for this forum and in particular DW.

regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#90 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Hey! "Dinna fash yerself, laddie."

Despite having worked with natural plantation crepe extensively enough in my early years to consider using it on my saddle shoes, I still think the definition "To form opinions about something without having definite knowledge or evidence" describes my own (if no one else's) state of mind pretty well...close enough for government work, at any rate.

I guess that's why I asked for help.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#91 Post by dearbone »

Dw,

I think it does describes your inquiry,but having said that,i have a good sheet of crepe soling,i use it only for cleaning cement of leather,it is the best i have seen and it cuts very clean on the edges,if you need some,it is here.
BTW, "Dinna fash yerself, laddie." is that "shut the f up" in latin or celtic?

regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#92 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Thank you for the offer.

"Dinna fash yerself" is broad Scots for "don't let it bother you " or some such.

In "Tunes of Glory" Colonel Jock Sinclair says that...to his daughter, if I remember right...in one scene near the middle of the movie.


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Re: Bottoming techniques

#93 Post by dw »

Just a quick couple of photos of my saddle shoes in process...welting all around.

The first is the insole, channeled and holed.
7682.jpg


the second is the shoe fully welted.
7683.jpg



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Re: Bottoming techniques

#94 Post by relferink »

DW,

Nice shoes, do I see correctly that you used a midsole? Did you apply a thin layer of crepe before stitching it to the welt? I hope you used rubber cement to apply the crepe to the leather and you are now a believer in the strength of rubber cement.Image
To fix your heel stack rubber cement certainly works but there should be no need to use it. Did you use fresh, 24 grit sandpaper when you build up the heel? That should have done the trick just fine.

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#95 Post by big_larry »

D.W.,
I noticed that you and Jake always pre-poke the sewing holes in the hold fast. I have tried both pre and at the same time I am stitching. It turns out that it is about 6-6's for me. Other than speeding up the sewing process, what other advantage might there be to pre-holing the hold fast?

Also, while we are on the subject, I have been tempted to cut a wider channel (rabbit) and bring the stitching a little more under the foot. I have a notion that this would make the boot/shoe look a little more narrow (trim it up)and make sure no stitches into the welt were visable. Can you, or anyone else, see any harm using a 3/8 or 1/2 inch notching around the insole channel?

Sometimes I just sit and think, and sometimes I just sit.

Thank you, Larry Peterson
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#96 Post by dw »

"Holing" is an old technique (maybe the first mention is in Rees ? 1830's)...and I think has a lot to recommend it:

Spacing...especially if you are inseaming around a narrow toe, you can space your holes so as to never end up with too little holdfast between stitches.

Accuracy...I have always thought that it is nearly critical that the tip of you awl comes out at the proper place in the feather--neither too high on the holdfast nor too deep in the insole.

Convenience...if you hole the insole you always know where that next stitch is going, you're never "probing" for the right spacing or position. It just makes inseaming easier. All the "work" is done, you don't have to worry about encountering problems in the final stages of making the boot.

Having said all, that I have done it both ways...for nearly 25 years without holing and now ten years or so holing. After due consideration, I would never go back. I prefer to hole the insole ahead of time.

Some will say it isn't necessary...I would agree--it isn't. But it isn't necessary to inseam with a bristle and awl, either. All you really need is a jerk needle and some stitcher cord. Have at it with my blessings to those who feel that way.

I have my druthers based upon what is comfortable for me. The fact that the technique was also comfortable for a number of acknowledged masters over the last two-three hundred years might tell you something. Or it may not. I think it is neither here nor there.

I've always said..."when you sweep up the scraps, it doesn't matter whether they came from a hand-held knife or a Fortuna drum skiver, in the end only the results count."


As for your second question, I think 3/8ths is too wide except in very special circumstances. On the other hand, I think 1/16th or less is too little. Again...personal preference.

My reasons? Unless you are gonna stitch your outsole on by hand, if you cut your feather (outside channel) way under you'll have a hard time stitching it. And if you cut your feather too narrow, the protection of the insole for the inseam is lost and you run the risk if stitching through your inseamn while outseaming.

Being a craftsman is a delicate balance...we are always looking for ways to improve our work but sometimes we get into the trap of overthinking a problem. Worse though is when we don't think a problem through...or simply just don't think.

You are obviously engaged and dedicated. And I, personally, find that admirable. But I think you might be on the wrong track with cutting the feather that deep. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, however.


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Re: Bottoming techniques

#97 Post by dw »

Rob,

Thanks.

Yes, I used a midsole. I rubber cemented the crepe to the midsole then I stitched both simultaneously at about 5 or 6 to the inch.

As for stacking the heels...well, I did use fresh 24 grit paper and while it seemed fine at first, the layers slowly gaped open after a while. As I say, the rubber cement fixed that problem.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#98 Post by relferink »

DW,

Did you stitch through the full thickness of the crepe? Any pictures of the bottom of the soles?

How long did you press your top lifts for?

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#99 Post by dw »

Rob,

Yes, I stitched through the full thickness, but that was only 12 iron of crepe, 7 iron of midsole and what? 6 iron of welt?

Sorry no photos of the bottom and now they are dirty.

Press the top lifts?! Image Image

Of course, since I don't have a press I don't know how I would do that. I just hammered them with a beatdown hammer.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#100 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Dw
I think your a master of doing it the hard way! stitch plantation crepe Not i my life time couldn't imagine. If it don't glue, back to the drawing board. In the Peosthetic/orthoitic vein I have seen people sticth EVA to leather and expect it to hold. Not. to many variables and the biggest is having stitches pull/eat there way to happynees .Folks forget that stitching can't solve all things! EVa and the like are not sewen they are cemented..

Some new age materials won;t hold a stitch, the thread is like a knife and with every step you run the knife a little more.
some times less is more?
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