PhilipB1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:23 pm
I've not used it simply because I would have to buy a whole roll of tarred felt from a builders merchants which I suspect is several lifetimes worth of my shoe making when I can use leather scraps instead.
Hi Phil,
Are you sure the "tarred felt" we would get from a builder's merchant is the same thing? I think they would only have normal roofing felt which would be occlusive. I was told that at Lobb they often use a kind of tarred horse hair matting, since cork is regarded as a squeak risk. They reportedly used a separate knife for it as keeps tarring up the blade. I haven't seen "irish felt" ie flax + bitumen anywhere other than the Schooner chandlery shop ... Minimum order seems to incur around $50 shipping charge from Schooner. Excessive for me, but I might be willing to split a small order, if this stuff is really not available anywhere else; it's only £5.50 for each additional 12" x 32" length. @dw am I right in thinking the advantage of this "irish felt" above just using wool felt is in terms of better paste adhesion than with wool felt and also water resistance?
N
Last edited by nickb1 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Roofing felt...here in the US, at any rate, is paper. thick paper but still paper. It is not felt.
Neither the Irish flax felt nor the paper is particularly amenable to cements and the bond created between a paste and anything tarred is questionable to unknown. But with the Irish, you just need to get it to stay in one place while you mount the outsole. After that heat from the body and friction will make it stick lightly to the insole.
Nicholas Templeman would probably know where to get tarred felt in England.
And may I say that after using both the tarred felt and the untarred felt I have to say I like the untarred better. FWIW....
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
You can't use standard roofing felt, it has nasties like fibreglass in. The stuff you want is also known as Irish Felt, Ship’s Felt, Barge Felt, Irish Flax Felt and I believe sheathing felt. Don't know about horse hair matting, but can't see why not. Can be bought at builders yards and ships chandlers. My conclusion was that if I was going to buy some, I'd probably track down a shoe maker that uses it and buy some from him (as DW says, Nicholas Templeman would be someone to approach). I'd be interested in sharing some (but I suspect even half a roll would last several lifetimes at my rate of production). Yes, you need a separate knife, etc and it's apparently very messy which is why shoemakers like working with felt or cork or scraps of leather.
dw wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:12 am
And may I say that after using both the tarred felt and the untarred feltI have to say I like the untarred felt better. FWIW....
thanks both ... I think I read somewhere that a tarred product was often preferred because of the rainy British environment.
Thinking about @dw and @das posts above. I'm using insoles around 6.5mm thick, which don't usually have much fluff to remove, so there's a lot of thickness available to work with. As DW says it's the toe area which seems to need the filling (I suspect this is due to the extra thickness of the stiffener, but I'm not certain). So rather than take off fluff and then put back filler, I'm wondering if it would be possible to cut the holdfast around the toe area in such a way that filler isn't needed? Could that be done?
Just my guess, but tarred felt might have an advantage over regular felt, because it probably maintains its thickness well. If the height of the filling is not adjusted correctly or if used too thick, the stiff outsole will compress the felt at places where it is too high when the outsole it is put onto the shoe. Then during wear when all the leather layers break in, the compressed felt may expand and become uncomfortable to wear if it expands at the wrong places. I observed that once. Tarred felt might not do that and stay better in shape. To avoid said problems now I always try to keep the filling felt as thin as possible and have no creaking.
@carsten Not so sure about that...but only long term use would tell one way or the other. By my estimation (my eyes aren't what they used to be) the Irish Flax felt is right at 2/32" thick and, as you suggest, not gonna get any thinner.
The pure wool felt I get from Sutherland felt (F55) is sold as 3/32" which will compress at least 30%...which kind of fits my idea of what I'm looking for. I suspect that compression will facilitate the formation of a footbed and...perhaps only minimally...affords a little 'cushioning.'
And FWIW, the wool felt fills the forepart of the insole cavity admirably. And a sharp knife, used horizontally, will trim / skive it such that it more or less blends in with the edge of the welt at the inseam
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
I think you are correct, your thickness is very low to begin with and probably does not cause any problems.
In the pair I was talking about I have the following stak: 5mm felt sole covering the insole, leather insole, 3- 4+(?) mm felt filling + regular outsole. That build up is nice and warm but I got pressure on one foot in the ball area, just where the toes start.
Putting a thick insert into a shoe, esp. after the fact, changes the heel to ball length. In your case, i suspect change the size of the shoe by maybe close to one full size.That could make a difference.
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
Well, I tried to design the thick insert right away into the shoe, meaning that it was already there when I lasted the upper - so I think the foot "cavity" - which was fine for other models, remained the same. If now I take out the thick felt insert the shoe is actually too big. I think that should work, shouldn't it?
carsten wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:29 am
Well, I tried to design the thick insert right away into the shoe, meaning that it was already there when I lasted the upper. I think that should work, shouldn't it?
Didn't know if that's what you had done or not...that's why I said "after the fact." But yeah, it should be fine.
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
I've only ever used Baker's 5-6 iron insole shoulders. There's always some compressed flesh ("fluff"), sometimes it's easily skived-off, other times so bad it goes through the splitter. shoulders (as well as sole bends) are sold by weight, bear that in mind, so there's very little motive to remove superfluous flesh at the tannery.
Thanks @dw. Now everybody is talking about Baker all the time - that I just have to ask this. I was raised and tought that Rendenbach is the Mercedes amongst the sole leathers. Did someone of you ever compare Rendenbach to Baker? I have never seen Bakers croupon or shoulders and had contact to them only when I was looking for Russian Calf - which they are making a copy of. Is Baker really the Rolls Royce and worth changing over to from Rendenbach?
For outsoles, I have used Baker, I have used Rendenbach and I have used several Belgian chestnut tanned leathers--currently using Masur.
i like the Belgian stuff the best. But would use Baker in a heartbeat if it were more available here in the US. Once upon a time members of the guild and this forum made a group buy and the stuff we got as 10-11 iron at least and very very good. The insole shoulders are nearly unmatched from any source that I have run across.
Personally, I don't care for the Rendenbach outsole...it is too flinty and brittle. Some swear by it...and theoretically it should be good...but it seems to wear away at a relatively fast rate esp. on pavement of any kind. The shoulders are a bit more mellow (and clean...no fluff to speak of) but from what I've seen and acquired from Goetz, @das would like it better than me--the heaviest is too thin for my taste. I've made handwelted and channel stitched shoes (primarily women's shoes) from 6 iron but tbh, I just don't have faith in insoles that light.
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
Thank you for your assessment @dw. Your comment may have very well set a future destination for a family vacation. My wife, who is not making shoes, is eager to visit the UK and was already put off by the fact that the Independent Shoemaker conference in London was only online this year :-)
On that note there is another nice "business trip" for shoemakers I can recommend. Starting in Tuttlingen, Germany where oily Juchten Leather and other sole leather is made, move on to lower Alsace, France and work your way up through the french wineries and lovely framework house towns to end up in Hauenstein, Germany which has a big Shoe-Museum. (sorry for getting off topic)
Baker's v. Rendenbach, just my two cents: first off, making historical repro shoes primarily, you're hard-pressed to find (archaeologically) any outer soles as thick as 8-9 iron before c.1800-25, much less insoles thicker than 5-6 iron, often half that. To my knowledge 5-6 iron insoles are sort of "standard" thickness for men's hand-sewn work in the UK, have been since c.1900. Baker's is (UK) oak bark pit-tanned, UK hides. Rendenbach is valona (acorn caps) pit-tanned. Valona renders a very hard, flinty leather, as noted since the 1700s, nothing I'd want for insoles. I've only used Rendenbach outer soles, and mostly for machine-stitched (welted) work. I found it wore OK, but the grain tends to crack sometimes. Baker's sole bends are satisfactory but a little too soft, though not as good as the Croggan's (UK) bends, but they're out of business.
Does anyone know about Garat insoles and outsole bends, how they compare? I believe they are chestnut tanned, either 6 months or a year, depending what you buy. Insoles can be oiled or fatted (up to 14% for Norwegian), bends either half cylindrical or beaten (what is the difference?).
Thank you @das. I agree the Rendenbach coupon is too hard to be used for an insole. Until now I have used it only as outsole and their more flexible necks for stiffeners and shank cover. The cracking I have observed as well. Some people try to oil it over here to prevent that from happening. I am curious about the corresponding leather from Baker and will see how to buy some.
@carsten I have never had Baker's outer soles crack across the grain, but they do spread a bit in wear after repeated wettings. Rendenbach is more dimensionally stable in that regard.
bcFour wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:23 pm
@dw , how did you come to decide on the F55 felt? I was looking on their website and there are many options. curious as to what drew you to the F55
Is "guess-and-by-golly" an acceptable answer?
TBH, I asked for, and they sent, samples and I had some...vague...sense of what I wanted and what was needed. F55 seemed the best for the purpose.
Without "good" there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.
Around three weeks ago (post 619), I mentioned I had pasted my outsoles on. The shoes are now finished and have been worn a few times (by my wife) who likes them a lot, even though the shoes squeak a bit. This is not putting her off wearing them, but I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to fix the squeak, short of opening the bottoms up. I can't be certain, but I think the squeak is at the ball joint and I suspect it is the outsole moving slightly over the welt. I think it likely that where the shoe bends at the ball joint line there is a lot of flexure and the paste in not strong enough to hold the outsole to the welt so she shoe is relying on the stitches; the stitches were as tight as I could make them without pulling into the welt excessively, but I suspect they are allowing very tiny movements in the leather as the shoe flexes, hence the squeaks. Does this sound plausible, is there a way of definitively tracking down the squeak, and is is possible to avoid the problem either retrospectively or at the time of making (or does it require contact adhesive)?
Phil,
A few pegs might be the answer. Will prevent the layers moving against each other. Not sure how close you'd want to peg to the welt edge though. very short pegs?
Nick
Hi Nick, the problem is the outsole moving over the welt. I don't know how you peg that, short of pegging the outsole to the insole which will restrict flexibility, given it's at the ball joint. I think we will live with it.
PhilipB1 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:41 am
Hi Nick, the problem is the outsole moving over the welt. I don't know how you peg that, short of pegging the outsole to the insole which will restrict flexibility, given it's at the ball joint. I think we will live with it.
Hi Phil,
In a fully pegged shoe or boot the outsole is pegged with at least 2 rows of pegs all the way around the shoe. So the loss in flexibility may not be that noticeable?
N
