Bottoming techniques

[nickb1]

Talking to some British shoemakers on another forum I learned that the Irish Flax felt was widely available over there.

May I ask what is the other forum? I wasn't aware of another active one apart from facebook ones, which I find less informative.

[dw]

Sent you a PM

[carsten]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, so please move it if this does not belong here.

Although for me Oxford and Derby are ideal styles - according to my teenage boys (12+16) these type of schoes look nice but are just not cool enough to wear them in school. Initially I had made them some Derby shoes with some more attractive underlays, but peer pressure makes them prefer to wear sports sneakers to school. So I confess that I -chose not to fight this battle and with a lot of pain in my heart and frowns on my face- do buy the commercial stuff for my kids after they had been ridiculed by their peers for their "odd" shoes made from a dead animal.

Being convinced myself, however of the superior quality of sewn leather shoes I was wondering if there might not be a way after all to make some shoes that they would wear on a daily basis. I though of this design which might look somewhat like chucks in the end, when embedded seams are used. I have not seen this assembly in the books I have, so maybe there are some strong reasons not to do it. My question is has anyone tried to use a vertical welt as shown in the pictures? Its a bit like the veltschoen construction but not bent in the lower part. Would such a design work if the welt is not too wide? Is it worth a shot?

My concern is that the lips covering the seams might roll up at one point if they are not cemented well.

Thanks, Carsten

[dw]

It's an interesting concept but I'm not going to comment except to say that there is a whole 'industry' that has risen up in the last five years or so (at least i never heard or noticed it before) of hand making bespoke (or at least RTW) running shoes and so forth. I have had several students come to me and then go on to make alligator sports sneakers, etc.. As far as I know the big thing is obtaining unit soles that fit your lasts and the cement or equipment to mount them. Everything else is pretty much just shoemaking.

[carsten]

Thanks DW.

"I'm not going to comment" that is also just what I tell my kids, when they are looking for what they call shoes.
I still did not give up hope though that they will also love the real ones one day.

[PhilipB1]

I was investigating something similar for my wife's shoes, so I was hoping for a few comments... For what it's worth, this is what I've found out/done.

If you decide on the welt as you've drawn it, seam 1 is the same as Norwegian Welt and I'd suggest marking up on the outside of the welt and making the holes with the awl from the outside. It makes it neater. Also, as long as the inside channel is cut without removing much or any leather, you will not need a filler.

As an alternative to your vertical welt, you could do a conventional blind welt or just bring the normal out-seaming in very tight so it isn't visible (or only just visible). Also called German welt or dress welt. I'm sure there will be people on this forum who can advise on how to do that.

The leather outsole is essentially a mid-sole and can be very thin (I use about 2.5mm shoulder, but I've been advised to go thinner, maybe 1.5mm). A thinner midsole will make your blind welt easier if you go that way.

Then the rubber sole is stuck on. A sole press of equivalent helps, but I've just used a hammer so far, not having a press. I've found the Vibram catalogue the best source of rubber soles. Not all are commercially available, so you have to find out what is available. You can go for the whole sole unit, as DW says, but also they are often done with a thin outsole sole sheet (I like Vibram 7170 lisk, 4mm) and then use some of their mid-sole sheeting to build up the sole as required.

Hopefully others will chip and we can both learn some more.

[carsten]

Thanks @PhilipB1 ,

>"I'd suggest marking up on the outside of the welt and making the holes with the awl from the outside. It makes it neater. "

Good idea - I just threw away an attempt where I started making the holes from the inside out and did not like the irregularities. The way you suggest though the hole will be larger on the outside than on the inside of the holdfast. If I remember correctly I saw somewhere somebody making a Norwegian welt marking the holdfast on the outside, next using a finer pointed awl to set the exit hole from the outside and then making the real hole from the inside by means of the regular awl. Maybe this way the hole diameter will be smaller on the ouside than on the inside of the holdfast, like it is supposed to be.

First time I hear of a german welt. I found some images here:
https://shoesandcraft.com/2011/01/12/ma ... ch-part-i/

Maybe I am missing something, but to me it just looks like an ordinary english welting, just that the holdfast ist moved further inside. If that is true, it appears that I have made german welts all along - maybe its because I am German :-)

[PhilipB1]

Making the awl holes from the outside does seem to produce larger holes, but they close up again around the thread. Here's a link with James Ducker showing how to do it.

For several of my shoes, the goal has been to have a thin (for flexibility) leather midsole on which to stick a rubber outsole. If you don't want to see the welt stitching, then it's probably worth mentioning that there are other construction methods you could use.
- Cement construction
- Blake (stitching through insole to midsole)
- Turn-shoe
- Construction where you make the shoe first and then put the last in the shoe to set the shape before final outsoling (ideally you need a last like DW's sliding hinge last)

I think the Blake stitching (insole to midsole) is potentially a good option. There are people that have the machines and will do that for you, or you can do it by hand. Earlier in this topic on post 445 onwards, DW demonstrates a method by Garsault which is essentially a hand version of the Blake, stitching through the insole. Might be worth a try?

[bcFour]

re: pre-holing from the outside.
i just finished Norwegian stitching a pair of shoes by pre-holing from the outside in. I did it only on the insole and slightly adjusted the pitch at the toe and heel for the smaller radius of curvature. I figured I'd have better aim hitting the meat of the holdfast this way as opposed to the way James did it as referenced above (after lasting). The results were GREAT! Important things were to accurately mark the location AND direction of the holes on the insole so your aim is good on the lasted shoe. Also, you have to 'listen' to the awl that it is quiet and smooth as it goes through the holdfast to ensure you are following the hole and not making a new path. It was zen!!

[carsten]

Makes a lot of sense to me @bcFour. Thanks for the illustration. Looks very good.

[dw]

I really like what you did there. I like the way you thought it through and the way you planned it out.

It was brilliant to use Norwegian stitching to 'bridge' the inside stitches around the heel and toe.

Great work.

[homeboy]

Looks great to me! Thanks for sharing!

[dw]

@bcFour

I'd like to see how you ended the Norwegian stitch. That seems to be a fairly significant question for everyone who does this for the first time or on an occasional basis. I suspect that many times the reason a shoe isn't stitched like that all the way around (360°) is because there doesn't seem to be a good, clean way to finish it off.

Do you have a photo? Please.

[bcFour]

@dw

oh man, the last stitch.

It's a lot easier when you don't do the braiding, obviously. With the braid it took some razzle dazzle and some brute force.

I continued the braid through the last stitch and then, with an awl, made some room in the FIRST stitch and wrapped the braiding threads back through the first stitch, twisted them and then pulled them back through that first inseaming hole. Ultimately you are pulling three threads through a hole that already has a thread through it. To do that I had to taper (should have done this before I even started, but...hindsight) the braiding threads and then 'splice' it into the inseaming thread to pull it through that first hole. This 'use one thread to pull another thread' is the same/similar technique I've seen people do blake stitch by hand and how I sometimes do an emergency welt stitch when a thread goes rogue.

these pictures don't really tell the tale or explain the process, but it's all I have:

[dw]

@bcFour

Well, it looks terrific. I was shooting for something similar my last attempt but it didn't come out looking as good as yours.

I don't really know how you got seven (?) loose ends or what you did with them all but I wish I did.

Maybe next time you'll take a short video with your phone ...I'll help you post it if you wish.

[bcFour]

thanks for the kind feedback. still a few more rows of stitching on this pair before I can breath easy(er).

ok, here is an attempt to illustrate where each thread comes from and goes to. The stars indicate that the end of that thread is off screen.

The red and the purple threads are on the insole side of the shoe and pulled to their final location. The red one is still 'slack' so that it can be used as the helper puller for everything else. (ref: blake technique) The red also is hard to tell that it loops off screen and one red is in front of another red...that makes that loop (labeled as two strands).

The yellow is the FIRST stitch.

The green and blue without the stars show where it loops back off screen.

The green and blue with the stars show where I eventually loop them back and go into the hole to follow the red and end up where the red star is.

(i do realize that this is just a horrible explanation.... yes, maybe a video the next time this all goes down.)

[dw]

Thank you--I think that's essentially what I did, just not as well.

Took time to create this explanation and I, for one really appreciate it. Good on you.

[bcFour]

thanks @dw . Your compliments carry a lot of weight.

(...and this one attempt at an explanation is peanuts compared to the countless hours you've put into knowledge sharing...)

cheers!
bob

[PhilipB1]

Just wanted a quick sanity check. Yesterday I pasted the outsole on with Hirschkleber, instead of using neoprene or rubber. The outsole was mellow (slightly damp) and I used a couple of temporary nails to hold the outsole in place. And a horseshoe of brass nails in the heel area. No filler as such, but I pasted a layer of linen between insole and outsole to hopefully stop squeaking.

I did wonder about out-seaming while the paste and sole were still damp, but decided to clamp the outsole to welt and let the paste dry.

The paste has dried out ok with welt and sole bonded so I'll be out-seaming shortly. I'm just wondering, however, if I'm going to regret this later on and might not be better opening it up and using neoprene or rubber? If the paste will hold when I damp the outsole channel for outseaming? Or if I should have out-seamed whilst the paste and sole were still damp?

Any advice or thoughts welcome.

[dw]

In the long history of shoemaking, it wasn't so very long ago when there was no such thing as contact cement.

I suspect, from literature I've seen, that as recently as the mid to late 19th century, rubber cement was a new and wondrous thing.

I've often wondered how it was done--how folding a topline was done, how outsoles were mounted, when all that was available was paste. Potato starch.

I suspect it was an entirely different mind-set and the problems were not a great as I am imagining. I dunno.

But @das would know, I am sure. If I'm not mistaken, he has spent many years making shoes without contact cements.

Beyond all that there is a fellow on Instagram (grandval_shoemaker) who has recently posted several photos of mounting and stitching outsoles using paste...or at least without using neoprene cement.

Not absolutely sure what I'm seeing in that photo but it looks to me as if he is stitching while the outsole is moist. That being the case, it doesn't appear that the welt is tight to the outsole.

Which, in the absence of some further technique, would bother me.

It would be interesting to see the whole process. I have played around with the concept and if I could have figured out some way to clamp the welt to the outsoles sans a modern day press, (sandbags don't quite get it) I would have abandoned All-Purpose long ago.

[carsten]

For what its worth:
Still studying Max Sahm... I can report that he actually wrote dextrine glue, which is starch based becomes too brittle over time, he says that vienna-glue serves better in the long term. Now what vienna-paste is or was I did not figure out yet- He says that it is based on crushed wheat, which is washed out and results in a white gray translucent thin layered material. To use it it needs to be soaked for 30-45 Minute in water. Once ready it is supposed to "pull-threads" once you take it out of the jar.

[PhilipB1]

Thought I'd resort to Hasluck. He mentions pasting the bottom of the shoe and then putting talc on the felt (I'm assuming he means tarred felt as referred to in another book of the same vintage). But he appears to out-seam whilst the sole is still damp and it's not clear to me if the sole is actually pasted to the welt before stitching/sewing or only if the stitching/sewing attaches the sole (I'm also not clear on the distinction between stitching and sewing the sole, but clearly there is one). So I'm none the wiser from that. Maybe @das can explain?

I'm also assuming that the paste is not going to hold when the shoe is in service, just the stitching.

To clamp insole to welt whilst the paste dried I used foldback clips (like Bulldog clips) with a layer of leather top and bottom to stop marking. Not very authentic, but it worked. The heel was bandaged up so the heel seat dried nice and tight against the upper.

[nickb1]

I was taught (using contact cement) to stitch the sole when it is still mellow (ie not dry). The action of the awl often forces the layers apart as you go around, but they are always fixed well, never separating, after stitching. Won't it be the same with paste? The stitch itself should clamp the layers together, and paste re-bonds when it is moist. There will be some wetting of the edges afterwards during rasping / sanding. with contact cement the heated irons probably help too to reactivate the bond.
Having said that I think in Garsault, when there was presumably only paste, it says that the sole is fixed in place with three tacks whilst stitching is going on. You then have holes in the sole that are later covered up with a stamp.
@PhilipB1 I read that "sewing" is for making things from separate pieces. When the sole is attached the shoe has already been made - by welting. So this could be why welts are sewn but the sole is stitched. Potentially confusing perhaps because "sewing" proceeds with "stitches" ...

[das]

Yes, Garsault in my 'AotS' may hold the answers you seek (the 3 sole-blocking tacks, sole stamps, etc.), but especially the "molding block", q.v. The damp outer sole is laid over one of the oval hollows, and beaten down in with the butt of the hammer handle (in the 19thc a heftier egg-shaped iron or wooden egg-headed hammer was used) to dish the sole into "the shape of a gondola" he wrote in 1767. Pre-shaping the outer sole to be convex or cupped, it mates-up much better to the welt for stitching. I beat the sole on the bottom of a last to cup it. Set it aside to let it dry, then paste it onto the bottom-filled/levelled insole and welt once all that's been made. Let that dry, then just re-wet the bottom of the outer sole with water on my fingers, or a rag, enough to open the channel and sole stitch--not re-wetting to the point the H'kleber lets go. The 'AotS' glossary, too, has the historical take on the technical differences between sewing and stitching--the verb form "outseaming" being a neologism, LOL. If someone has definitive evidence H'kleber paste is potato-based, I'd love to see it. The MSDS sheet is silent on the base material. As to historical/traditional English shoemakers' paste, all my reading points to rye flour paste (boiled to break open either the starch or gluten--whichever one won't break open in cold water). Tried that, plus wheat wallpaper paste, bookbinders' paste (pre-mixed and dry)--the H'kleber sticks the best IMO.

[dw]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. I don't know that HK is potato starch (although I have heard that)...I just included potato starch as one of many such pastes. I've even heard of rice flour being used. Somewhere on the internet is a video and set of instructions for making a traditional rice flour paste that the Japanese have used for centuries for woodworking, etc.. IIRC. And it is supposed to be crazy strong...at least by comparison to other pastes.

Of course then there's the apocryphal(?) snail anus glue that I ran across in an old 18th (?) century book that was used to glue crystal stemware back together. Frankly, I thought it was joke but it wasn't that kind of book.

@nickb1 The way I was taught is to cement (yes I'm talking about AP now) the fleshside of the outsole while the leather was dry. When the cement was dry to the touch, drop the leather in a bucket. Let it soak until it is wet all the way through. Then pull it from the bucket and let it dry back to temper. It will be moist enough that it will mould to nearly any shape. Then apply another layer of cement on top of the first and simultaneously cement the welt and bottom of the shoe. Re-cementing the outsole reactivates the cement. Mount the outsole and welt press. This will not come apart when stitching.

@das While you're here...can you satisfy my curiosity...? What did early makers use when folding...like around the topline? Seems like no paste would hold the the fold esp. on a curved edge well enough to be reliable.