Bottoming techniques

[carsten]

Poor snail - I would think it must suffer from constant constipation if such glue is produced at the exit... :-)

Regarding the washed out wheat one addition: I found that for baking supplies pure gluten is sold these days, which is also supposed to be washed out from wheat - and might just be what was described as vienna glue.

[nickb1]

cement (yes I'm talking about AP now) the fleshside of the outsole while the leather was dry. When the cement was dry to the touch, drop the leather in a bucket. Let it soak until it is wet all the way through. Then pull it from the bucket and let it dry back to temper. It will be moist enough that it will mould to nearly any shape. Then apply another layer of cement on top of the first and simultaneously cement the welt and bottom of the shoe. Re-cementing the outsole reactivates the cement. Mount the outsole and welt press. This will not come apart when stitching.

That sounds like an improvement, thanks. I'm curious to try it @das's way with just paste too ... I guess it could be a mite harder to cut the channel (already not an easy job) if the sole is not mellowed through though.

[das]

"Early" as in how early? Top line and uppers edge treatments if any (usually just cut edge on leather uppers) varied. aAnd remember, except for women's textile uppers (later 17th-19thc) no full linings inside quarters and vamps, nor for men's until well into the 1800s. None were simply stuck. Whether separate edge binding (leather or textile tape, e.g. "galoon" or grosgrain, etc.), or even just the top line leather skived and folded inside, these free edges were always secured by stitching, and/or sewn with a whip stitch, invisible on the outside.

[das]

@nickb1 If you're willing to use AP cement, by all means DW's way is the fastest and most efficacious by far. But if you want to avoid AP for health or other reasons, if you pre-mold the outer soles in a molding block to cup them, they are a lot more cooperative to mount over a convex last bottom when simple water-based pastes are used; as over the last 254 years, or the advent of the early rubber cements (crepe rubber scraps dissolved in petrol!) in shoe factories, sometime in the 1880s-'90s[?]. If you're being acutely mindful of profits/bench-hours/production time, by all means go with the AP. That said, today their are water-based "cements" that some swear by in place of solvent-based AP. The only brand that comes to mind is Renia Colle, but I've no experience with it myself.

[PhilipB1]

Water based cement: Renia Aquilim 315 will work the same if applied as DW describes for AP cement. Ecoweld is another brand which seems to stick slightly better than Renia (for me at any rate).

Looking at James Ducker's blog, he shows an example where his mellow (tempered) outsole is first hammered to shape, then pasted on, and immediately the channel is cut and stitched (all whilst the sole is still mellow): at the bottom of https://carreducker.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... annel.html. So it looks like there are a few ways of pasting an outsole. I like the DAS way, but I'll talk to James about his and try and find out more.

As the pasted soles are now dry, today I outseamed, wetting / channelling pretty much as DAS described. The paste held, and the stitching went ok, but I had to keep wetting the channel as I went.

Hopefully it will all hold together when the shoes are worn, relying on stitches rather than contact adhesive.

[nickb1]

@PhilipB1 I think James was using rubber solution for the central part of the sole and paste just around the edges to avoid getting a line showing between the welt and the sole. So the rubber solution would have held the sole in place whilst stitching.
I heard about Renia aquilum @das but not the other brand that Phil mentions... they must be worth a try to get away from toxic neoprene... "Profits" etc not a concern since this is an acknowledged resource-consuming hobby, but time is nonetheless a factor ;-) I wonder if the alternatives still have the benefit of avoiding squeaking however? With leather shanks, how could one avoid squeaking just using paste? Would it be enough just to completely remove the grain and rough up the surface?

[PhilipB1]

Forgot to mention that Ecoweld has been rebranded as Intercom Ecostick and comes in several types for different applications. Possibly the formula has changed, don't know. 5019N is sold as a strong adhesive for "insole/outsole" and 5019ST is said to be suitable for upper construction.

I'd prefer to rely on stitches and paste if I can.

[nickb1]

Water based cement: Renia Aquilim 315 will work the same if applied as DW describes for AP cement. Ecoweld is another brand which seems to stick slightly better than Renia (for me at any rate).

Probably a naive question but if it's "water-based cement", won't it be diluted if you cement the soles dry and then mellow the soles in a bucket of water?

[PhilipB1]

@nickb1 Although the cement is water based, once the glue has "dried" you are left with the adhesive film which does not dissolve in water. The adhesive that remains can be "reactivated". There are videos on the web showing how to use water-based contact adhesive for sticking on a mellow/tempered sole and also attaching rubber sole units (I'm using the word rubber loosely).

@dw Re folding edges without glue. If I don't want to use glue, I fold the skived edge and crease as normal, then compress overnight under a sheet of heavy glass (you can see through the glass to make sure everything looks ok). The leather will then hold the fold and it can be stitched. Probably not an authentic technique, though.

[PhilipB1]

This is for @das and anyone who has experience of fitting a leather shank without contact adhesive.

I'm making shoes shoes with relatively low heels, well under 1". Fitting a shank made from around 5mm shoulder, filling the heel area and running forward to a little short of the ball joint line, skived appropriately. I would normally use neoprene to stick this shank. Hasluck on page 88 says to use 4 pegs to secure the leather shank, then paste a thin layer of felt (I assume tarred felt) on top before being sprinkled with powdered French chalk and the sole fitted.

So I wanted to ask if this method is recommended, or how the shank can be fitted without neoprene or contact adhesive? Also, will I get squeaks as the shank flexes against the insole?

[nickb1]

@PhilipB1 No experience but I was thinking, if you are going to peg the shank, why not paste a layer of thin wool felt underneath it to insure against squeaks?

[dw]

In my experience, 'creaking' only occurs in areas of high flex when bare leather rubs against bare leather.

I suppose it is possible get creaking coming from the shank area, but not often.

And if you're gonna use felt between layers (a good idea, IMO) it ought to go on top of the leather shank and between the outsole--next to the outsole. The pegs in the shank will prevent the shank from moving...no movement, no creak.

[das]

Have used leather shank pieces almost exclusively for decades, in conjunction with 5/8" heels. They work splendidly. Usually used the dense, hard, spine strip from the middle of an insole shoulder. Yes, cut as you described to go well back behind the heel breast into the seat, extending forward to just shy of the joint line. Skived "to zero", or nearly so across the front depending on thickness of your intended bottom fill up there; just a bit along the sides (level with the top of the holdfast), and a bit around the rounded butt end to blend into however you've made your heel seat. Leave the center as thick as possible down its length. Remove all the grain and roughen with a rasp all over. Dampen and position with paste (liberally), and immediately peg (2-3 pegs) it down the center to the insole, being careful to tilt the pegging awl so the pegs go in at a low sloping angle, pointing towards the heel seat, not straight in. Don't knock the pegs in too far, just until you feel them hit the last, nip off the excess peg. This is because if the peg points pierce into the last bottom at all, slipping the last later will be nigh impossible. With any protruding peg points angling rearward, even though they pierce through, the last will still slip out OK. Protruding points can be cut out after the last is slipped with a suitable crooked peg knife (or "balloon" or "Yankee cutter" peg tool), or the points smoothed off with a common rasp, "peg rasp", or just bit of coarse sandpaper wrapped around your thumb. As to creaking, it can be a symptom of having used too much paste, so when it migrates out or dissipates in wear, it leaving voids between layers to rub against each other. That said, without using AP or any felt, French chalk, etc., my only nuisance creaking has happened in the heel stack or heel seat. Just be careful to de-grain everything including heel lifts, and rasp a good rough surface on everything.

[PhilipB1]

@dasThank you. That's really helpful. I'll be trying that on the next pair of shoes. Could I also ask what you do about filler?

I'm generally trying to cut the holdfast and inseam so that I don't need filler, but I sometimes get a dip in the toe area of around 1-1.5mm (I think it's due to the toe stiffener). If the dip is enough I fill with a small piece of skived lining just in the toe, otherwise if the dip is very shallow then I'll leave it unfilled. Then I put a layer of linen over everything forward of the heel inside of the inseaming (pasted on the last shoes but previously stuck with rubber solution) before putting on the outsole. I don't know if the linen is needed or even if it is a good idea - it's there to theoretically stop squeaking (not having had squeaking, I continue to use the linen in case it works).

Tarred felt filler is mentioned in some old books and was/is used in English shoes. Hasluck mentions "felt" filler over the shank and in the forepart (is this tarred felt?). I've also seen @dw using wool felt (without tar) and cork is perhaps the most common filler although DW has many times commented that it will disintegrate with time.

What do you recommend/use? Should I be putting in a filler regardless, or only if need to level the shoe? and what sort of filler?

[GalvinLW]

@das Thanks for the fortuitous recent posts! Came looking for information on leather shanks and here it all is on the recent thread! I'll have to try this on the derbies I'm working on this weekend.

[dw]

There is a discussion about Irish Flax felt--tarred felt--here

[das]

@PhilipB1 Glad to help. One thing I should have written in yesterday's missive, I only skive the shank piece (front, sides, back) after it's been pegged in place and dried, then give it a good rasping to roughen it. Bottom fill: Always leather. I have no shortage of 5-6oz. veg-tanned uppers scraps (e.g. waxed calf) to use for bottom fill, or flesh strips the 6" tug splitter takes off the back of especially fleshy Baker's ranges (I cut my bends into rages for ease of handling). So, the front edge of my shank pieces are usually skived only to 5-6 oz, not absolute "zero", to mate-up with the forepart fill.

[nickb1]

@PhilipB1 @das @GalvinLW
A tip I picked up from evening classes is to pare the sides of the leather shank slightly floating, not pitched. This is the opposite to what you would expect, as it goes against the slight angle of the upper and liner layers, but the rationale is that you then hammer the shank into place and it fits tight with no gaps. The teacher also made a newspaper template of the bottom space to be filled rather than a chalk line, to get a better fit. But I find the chalk line also works fine, if less exact, and is less fuss.

[nickb1]

In my experience, 'creaking' only occurs in areas of high flex when bare leather rubs against bare leather.

I suppose it is possible get creaking coming from the shank area, but not often.

And if you're gonna use felt between layers (a good idea, IMO) it ought to go on top of the leather shank and between the outsole--next to the outsole. The pegs in the shank will prevent the shank from moving...no movement, no creak.

On reading this I took a creaking shoe, which I know I made without having glassed the grain side of the leather shank. I pegged it down the centre of the waist with two rows of pegs and put some right through the heel stack too, since I could feel the creaks starting there. They have gone from creaking like a barn door to stealthy silence. Looks a mess though ;-)

[das]

Unfortunately, adding pegs here and there is the tried and true remedy. Somewhere in my files I have a gentleman's shoe order from the 1700s, specifically requesting his shoe creak. Go figure.

[nickb1]

Unfortunately, adding pegs here and there is the tried and true remedy. Somewhere in my files I have a gentleman's shoe order from the 1700s, specifically requesting his shoe creak. Go figure.

At least that would be an easy request to satisfy :-) Would be quicker without all that scraping too. I wonder if anyone has asked for that before or since? Perhaps it was an eccentric (or worse) schoolmaster who wanted the kids to be wary of his approach? The creaking shoe was also uncomfortable because of the accompanying bad vibrations (!) and gait adjustment to minimise the creak.

[PhilipB1]

Thanks for all the comments above. It's good to hear that pegging the shank stops the squeaking!

@dw Thanks for the link to the interesting tarred felt discussion. I had seen the subject discussed on the other forum. I wondered if you and others were now converted to tarred felt and also wondered why it was not used on your side of the pond? I've not used it simply because I would have to buy a whole roll of tarred felt from a builders merchants which I suspect is several lifetimes worth of my shoe making when I can use leather scraps instead.

@das Not the answer on filler I was expected but very helpful. I hope you don't mind a few more questions:
Am I right in thinking you are only filling the forepart (nothing over the shank and back)?
Do you fix the fore-part filler to the insole e.g. with paste?
When the outsole is fitted and pasted, is the paste applied to the welt area only, or over the whole of the sole?
I also wondered about the Baker's insoles, some of which are quite fluffy (is that what your refer to as fleshy?). I remove the fluffy stuff from the surface, but I've heard that others don't - I wondered what you would recommend?

I also have this over-riding question on filler... if I can inseam and keep it level around the toe, can I leave out the filler?

[das]

@PhilipB1 Your questions in order:
"Am I right in thinking you are only filling the forepart (nothing over the shank and back)?" Correct.
"Do you fix the fore-part filler to the insole e.g. with paste?" Correct.
"When the outsole is fitted and pasted, is the paste applied to the welt area only, or over the whole of the sole?" Over the whole of the outer sole, and over the whole bottom of the shoe.
"I also wondered about the Baker's insoles, some of which are quite fluffy (is that what your refer to as fleshy?). I remove the fluffy stuff from the surface, but I've heard that others don't - I wondered what you would recommend?" Sometimes Baker's comes well-fleshed (flesh, the "fluffy stuff" removed), other times the flesh has merely been compressed while wet when rolling, and is a rather thick layer of weak "fluffy stuff". At a minimum I skive it off, so as not to be trying to sew the welt through dense "fluff" akin to seaweed, or fur; at a maximum I run the cut insoles (occasionally outer soles too) through a 6" crank splitter to flesh them, getting down to solid corium fiber for sewing through. These 6" x X" long rashers of fleshings out of the splitter make fine bottom fill IMO.
"I also have this over-riding question on filler... if I can inseam and keep it level around the toe, can I leave out the filler?" If you can make a strong functional holdfast, and welt-sew light enough to have no huge cavity to fill later, I suppose you're OK. There are plenty of light/dressy 18thc men's welted shoes ("pumps" mostly) with no fill, or just minimal fill pieces, slivers and "patches" stuck in here or there--not a whole or thick piece covering the entire forepart. For robust, stout, or heavy work, I can't see getting away without a cavity to fill later though.

[PhilipB1]

@das Thanks, really helpful.

[dw]

The odd man out here (one of the "others" that "don't" ) and maybe even a little unconventional, but I don't remove the loose stuff--the 'fluff." I try to start out with at least a ten maybe even an 11-12 iron insole (depending on the type of footwear). and I try to cut the channel to about half the thickness.

The upshot is that, if done correctly I am virtually guaranteed to be sewing (inseaming) in solid corium.

Now, this is just my experience and not peer reviewed, as who should say, but I don't see a downside--IMO, the 'fluff' (which is very much like felt) provides a 'cushion' that facilitates a good footbed. And beyond that, it doesn't make much sense to cut, scrape, tear or skive it off only to turn around and add back a filler of scrap leather which in all likelihood is of even worse quality than the stuff that was removed. Worse, to add the scrap leather filler one needs to bond it to the insole and all too often the bonding agent is occlusive or it doesn't hold well enough to prevent creaking. The fluff, being so like felt, is naturally bonded / melded with the corium, so it will never creak.

And...wholly unsolicited... I will add my on trimming the inseam, if I may. I agree that it is difficult to trim it so that no filler at all is wanted or needed. Again, IMO. And esp. around the toe area. But it is possible to take a lot more off the inseam than most do. Somewhere on this forum, HERE, there is a photo of the way I trim the insole. There is probably less than 1/16" difference between the level of the welts and the level of the insole across the treadline. With little or no (closer to "no") jeopardy to the inseam's strength or integrity., IMO. That's just a consequence of the way the awl travels through the holdfast and the upper and welt.

FWIW...YMMV