The Crispin Colloquy

In the insole thread we had talked about the potential benefits of having the flesh side of the insole turned toward the foot as per Max Sahms advice.
(see viewtopic.php?p=43280#p43280)

Now Sahm says lining is made of cloth- which you protect at the heel and other areas where the foot slides into the shoe with leather strips.

I have never used cloth, since I assumed leather would be the natural choice and thought cloth was only used to lower the cost- but maybe I am wrong. Often I see in shoes from other makers that the leather lining shows its grain side towards the foot in the major part but is turned in the heel section with its flesh side towards the heel to increase friction (reduce slip). Sometimes even the heel section is made with the grain side towards the foot.

Would it not be consequent to have the entire lining showing the flesh side towards the foot too? This way it could even made seamless. Or am I missing something?

Cloth / canvas as a liner is cheaper, it probably breathes better and is cooler, it doesn't stretch, so using lower quality uppers is more of an option. It's also less structurally sound and if damaged falls apart almost immediately.

As far as the heel lining or even the whole lining being turned flesh to the foot, in both cases the lining gets dirty faster and holds the dirt forever. Some makers turn the flesh to the foot in the heel area because they think it provides a better grip around the heel, but in my experience (I've done it that way), it's not only NOT a significant gain in that regard, if the shoe is so loose in the long heel / topline that it needs more adhesion, something is wrong with the fit...IMO.

Thanks @dw Your answer just came in time before I started the lining :-)
In that case I will keep doing what I did before and have the grain side of the lining facing the foot all around.

Wishing you well and looking forward to your observations and assessment.

my take on flesh v grain on the foot-side of the liners:

no matter how good the fit, you will have relative motion between the shoe and the foot, for the same reasons your car has a differential - as your foot bends it's a different radius of bend than the shoe is bending. For that, I'd want the smoothest surface again the sock to allow that movement to be between your sock and the liner instead of between your sock and your foot. IMO

dw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:07 pm Almost historical...round closing for a pair of saddle derbies vintage cricket awl and split 15lb. nylon mono bristles (click to see larger photo):

@dw what is the wooden form you are using here please?
Thanks.

nickb1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:41 am
@dw what is the wooden form you are using here please?
Thanks.

You didn't specify which post you're referring to but if it's the one I think it is, the form is a Traditional tools but I just made up the shape I'm using.

@dw #446 in this thread. (I think you can summon the post by clicking the little arrow in the quote box...). It's known as a "closing block" it seems.

nickb1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:29 am @dw #446 in this thread. (I think you can summon the post by clicking the little arrow in the quote box...). It's known as a "closing block" it seems.

Right on both counts.

As I mentioned, it was just something I knocked out because I needed something like it...necessity being the mother of invention and all that. It does have hump in the middle of no specific dimension but emulating the backpart/heel of a last, which, AFAIK, has no historical antecedents.

dw wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:36 am

nickb1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:29 am @dw #446 in this thread. (I think you can summon the post by clicking the little arrow in the quote box...). It's known as a "closing block" it seems.

Right on both counts.

As I mentioned, it was just something I knocked out because I needed something like it...necessity being the mother of invention and all that. It does have hump in the middle of no specific dimension but emulating the backpart/heel of a last, which, AFAIK, has no historical antecedents.

It does however is very close to an historical tool called a "sewing block / closing block / knee block" It can be seen in Dictionary of Leather Working (R.A.Salman) pg 173. This has been used in olden times to sew a flat seam. I have used it to sew a flat seam on a medieval turned shoe using a straight awl as opposed to a curved owl....come to think of it I have not actually researched if it was used in medieval times so hopefully one of our historians will see this.

tjburr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:34 pm
It does however is very close to an historical tool called a "sewing block / closing block / knee block" It can be seen in Dictionary of Leather Working (R.A.Salman) pg 173. This has been used in olden times to sew a flat seam. I have used it to sew a flat seam on a medieval turned shoe using a straight awl as opposed to a curved owl....come to think of it I have not actually researched if it was used in medieval times so hopefully one of our historians will see this.

Thanks @tjburr. I am familiar with sewing blocks...I just don't remember seeing one with a pronounced 'hump' in the middle.

dw wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:04 pm Thanks @tjburr. I am familiar with sewing blocks...I just don't remember seeing one with a pronounced 'hump' in the middle.

Like this? Conceivably the "handle" end was rested on a workbench with the stirrup over the hump or forepart depending on which section is used? Alternatively it's just a kind of wooden hobbing last for repairs to the forepart of a shoe ...

Kind of but not really...here it is:

I was re-reading Rees on sewing round seams and noticed a statement I had missed before "Let​ ​the​ ​threads​ ​form​ ​half​ ​knots,​ ​commonly​ ​called​ ​half​ ​cast,
for,​ ​by​ ​that,​ ​there​ ​will​ ​be​ ​more​ ​thread​ ​and​ ​wax​ ​in​ ​the​ ​work,​ ​and​ ​you​ ​can​ ​draw​ ​the​ ​stitches​ ​as​ ​tight​ ​as​ ​you please​ ​without​ ​causing​ ​the​ ​leather​ ​to​ ​grin​ ​or​ ​tear:​ ​and​ ​in​ ​all​ ​kind​ ​of​ ​sewing,​ ​you​ ​should​ ​ob.​ ​serve​ ​the​ ​same method,​ ​except​ ​that​ ​of​ ​sewing​ ​down​ ​the​ ​heel​ ​of​ ​a​ ​man’s​ ​shoe​ ​or​ ​a​ ​channel..

The part I had missed before that the half cast helps in avoiding having the leather tear. The only thing I could think that would make this happen is that the half cast changed how the direction of the forces were applied to the leather as shown below.



It made me wonder if with thicker leather there had to be more casts to cause a thicker knot.

@tjburr I am not sure if the leather really tears less because the direction of forces change. If the tearing happens during sewing the applied pull will be perpendicular to the surface, resulting in forces into the material that should correspond more or less to the arrows on one side only but mirror imaged along the vertical line. The difference between the upper and lower image could be that in the upper case both threads cut into the material, when pulling the seam tight during sewing, while in the lower case only one thread (1. Thread) can cut directly into the material, as the other one (2. Thread) can't since it lies over the 1. Thread. Possibly its a similar effect like putting an extra thread in the toe area while inseaming. There also the pull thrength is working against the extra thread to avoid that the main sewing thread cuts ito the leather. If the above is true i think except for one additional wrap further wraps might not make much of a difference in case of thicker leather.