Closing techniques

[das]

DW, Somehow I missed email notifications on this thread. Was out sitting seaside last week anyway, w/out Interwebs. Horween does two fake waxed-calfs these days. One's a chrome-veg re-tan CHROMEXL, "Huntsman" (split side leather) very greasy with paraffin, and a new 100% veg "Essex" blacked on the flesh, fairly dry, but too stretchy for my taste. Looks like you got the CHROMEXL there by the dark brown grain color. Only way I was ever able to get CHROMEXL wet, for crimping, etc., was to soak it in the hottest running tap water for 30 mins., to get the H2o in past the paraffin stuffing, so I doubt if it will be affected by any "moistening", short of a scalding bath.

With 100% veg leathers I used to discourage wetting the edges being round-closed, because the leather plumped as you say, so once dry it shrank back down and the seam became loose--it "grinned and showed its teeth" IOW. I always tested the finished seam by pinching it. If it grinned open "bad", if it stayed firmly shut "good". Problem with grinning round-closing, dirt and grit will get in and grind-up your threads (seam fails), not to mention water leaking in. Not so much of an issue on a lined shoe as you're making above though.

Cute wee haft you have there, but where's the knob-end for drawing each stitch in tight? "A haft without a knob, ain't for shoemaking" IMO. I realize this is only a "tuck" dart-seam for shaping at the base of the one-piece quarters, and you'll be adding a lining, where I'm always relying on super-tight round-closing exclusively in historical uppers (unlined).

Sharon, I recommend you eschew any/all vegetable oils for currying leather. I know the Brits (Kellet & Dickens Bros.) went to rape seed oil in the 1990s, because it was cheaper than cod, not because it worked as well as/better than. In my experience veg-oils are fugitive, they wash right out of the leather, and they do not oxidize (like cod), bonding to the fibers, offering permanent protection/lubrication to the leather. There are enough historical treatises on tanning/currying (H. Dussance for one https://books.google.com/books/about/A_ ... APAAAAYAAJ), De LaLande for another: https://books.google.com/books/about/Ar ... hZtAEACAAJ ) if veg-oils had anything to recommend them for leather currying, they'd be mentioned, no? The texts extol cod (liver) and mutton tallow, and the French liked "Trayne" (whale) oil, which is unobtainium now, so moot, though in my experiments with it in the 1970s it smelled awful. In fact I recall one or more British tanning/currying texts criticizing the smell of French leather curried with "Trayne" oil even back then.

When I used Dennis Kellet's, or Dickens Bros. waxed calf (curried with rape seed oil), after tossing the uppers in the shop tub for crimping, wet-lasting, etc., the tub was covered in an oil slick in a matter of minutes, and we'd have to re-oil (with cod) later. The veg-oil, like any overly oily/greasy leather, will also tend to strip the wax right off your threads, or at the very least, soften the wax to a slippery mess to the point the bristles would pull off.

J. R. Baits & Lures in Ohio has supplied mighty nice unrefined cod liver oil, which I've used trouble-free for 30+ years for currying. Formerly they sold a really nice "Icelandic Cod Liver Oil", but that's done.

[dw]

Das,

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting. I too was somewhat dubious of the vegetable oil for the same reasons but it seems to be ubiquitous nowadays. That said, and FWIW, the molecular structure of jojoba oil is near-as-nevermind identical to whale oil. FWIW.

Several comments...I wet the Huntsman with an admixture of alcohol and water (stretching fluid) to get past the oil. Worked OK. I hammered (gently) and boned the wet seam after stitching and it seems tight now that it is dry. It was mostly dry by the time I finished stitching anyway...if that means anything. But round closing is, admittedly, not my forte as it is yours.

I have some of those awl blades mounted in larger handles but everything I have ever round-stitched was, IMO, too thin to bear tightening in the same fashion as when inseaming. The Huntsman in particular, seemed "iffy" in that regard. I just tightened with my hands...and not too vigourously. Again, seems tight even by your "pinch" test standards.

Re notifications...I'll check again but I'm pretty sure you are subscribed. If so, I don't know what to say. I'm kind of at a loss. Pays to check in the upper right hand corner for "new posts" I guess. Daily would be my advice.

[das]

Dennis Kellet told me, when he switched/I noticed, his rape seed oil "had the same atomic weight as cod....", none-the-less it did not oxidize or behave like cod in the leather, and leeched right out in the shop tub, so we went back over the uppers with cod afterwards. Lemme ask a veteran UK tanner friend for the straight poop, and if his reply is insightful, I'll post here. My suspicion is, they're just cost-cutting, and now facing the heavy over-fishing of Atlantic cod, trying an alternative--not an "improvement". Remember, "curried" leather like waxed calf, properly, is something like "combination tannage": basic veg-tanning, plus added treatment of "oil dressing" (via oxidized oils like buff and chamois was made into leather). This double-whammy created some of the longest-lasting leathers. I've handled waxed calf uppers from the mid-1700s that were as "fresh" as new, some still retained the characteristic sweet smell too.

If seams don't grin open when you pinch them, you're OK. But, for the record, I'd still not recommend round-closing wet leather, because it's apt to shrink when dry, risking loose seams.

Naturally you can't pull-in edge-closing as vigorously as welt-sewing, because the leather won't bear it without cutting through. Horween, and modern split cowhide side-leathers are so "loose" (non-dense) in fibers per mm. (flabby feedlot cattle), and have lost so much corium from being spit down from 9-10 iron to, say, 5 oz., they're way weaker for edge-closing. That said, I've never seen an historical closing (specifically) awl haft, or any shoemakers' haft from 1600s onward, that did not have a knob end, and the real waxed calf (on whole-grain E.I. kips) stands pulling-in (thread round knob like capstan) quite happily.

Unless I get email notifications with the morning flood into my inbox, I'm not alerted to activity on the CC. Got a notification on this one, so all seems to be OK now.

[dw]

Not sure notifications are OK...you are subscribed to this topic and the parent forum but a quick check of your notifications history rteveals that you have not gotten the half dozen or so emails since first of July.

Frankly, I'm not sure atomic weight is the same as molecular structure (I've seen a graphic comparison of the whale oil molecule next to the jojoba oil molecule. That said, the jojoba (esp. the stuff made for massage oil etc.0 will not "gel) like the whale or cod oil. Funny thing, though linseed will. As will tung oil.

Duly noted about round closing wet. I need more study in that regard.

I know round closing was done on relatively thin leathers but Kellet's waxed calf is lots thicker (and dirmer/denser) than an Annonay chrome calf at 3.5 ounce. Yet round closing is done in the factories of Northampton in such leather regular.

[SharonKudrle]

I am not receiving notifications, and I am subscribed to this topic too.
Sharon

[dw]

Did either of you get an email notification for this post?

[SharonKudrle]

I didn't, thank you very much for following up on this. I did check my spam and trash as you suggested, and it didn't get filtered. I'll follow up with you via private message so as not to clog up the Forum.
Sharon

[das]

I got notification.

Agreed completely, "atomic weight" is not molecular structure, but that's what Dennis Kellet said to defend rape seed oil v. cod. I can still get good cod oil, so no matter if the rape seed leeches out, just go back with a coat of cod.

Kellet also produced a "ladies' " weight waxed calf, maybe 3.5-4 oz. It round-closed OK as well. All his base leather was E. I. kips (free range, hard-scrabble wee cattle) BTW. Except for some frustrating efforts at round-closing CHROMEXL, I've never tried on other chrome leather myself. In my shop, round-closing ranged from 8-10 per inch for common work, and up to 18-20 (or whatever the leather would bear)--all by eye--for apprentices to graduate to journeymen. Only on thick (4-4.5 oz.) veg kangaroo could we get over 20+, routinely, without cutting through. Of course then the hemp yarns went to short-fiber tow cr*p, so a thread small enough to do fine closing would break just looking at it. I fear we're just seeing the passing of the ages, and nostalgia will not but frustrate the newbees, though it is important to know what, up until recently, was indeed quite possible.

[dw]

Please keep me informed about notifications.

[das]

Got this one.

[dw]

Great!

All...remember that when you receive a notification a "bit" is set for your account. You will not receive another notification, regardless of how many subsequent replies are made to a topic, until you visit the forum and that topic. At which point that "bit" is reset and the very next post will generate a new email notification.

Then the whole cycle starts all over again.

All modern forum software works this way. It is intentional and intended to encourage members to visit the forum and participate in discussions. Not force, mind you, just encourage. The remedy being to not subscribe and/or turn off email notifications.

[das]

As per my post Fri., Roy Thompson, veteran UK leather tanner, currently faculty at Leather Conservation Centre, replied re the traditional use of veg-oils in currying, there're ain't none (but Swiss): "I’ve been trawling through my books on currying dating from the mid 19th century to the 1960s and they all concentrate on mixtures of cod liver oil and tallow. They seem to agree that the tallow is a carrying material for the cod oil and that seems to be why stearine is substituted for pure tallow in some of the later publications. The only mention of vegetable oils is in Schultz XXXXX* who states that French and Swiss producers of wax calf used vegetable oils, particularly palm oil. He implies that this is the reason for their leathers’ softness and elasticity. Watt The Art of Leather Manufacture (1885), on the other hand, emphasizes that curriers should use the highest quality cod liver oil, entirely pure and free from any vegetable oils. It would seem that the use of materials such as rape seed oil, or even Crisco, is a cost-saving exercise. I seem to remember that Sedgwick’s of Walsall were using cod oil on their harness leathers when I visited them some 15 or more years ago. They are now part of the Clayton’s group and I note on their website that they are still producing traditional horse shell cordovan. In the past, Clayton’s specialised in heavy weight leathers but I think they have widened their range to include many unusual materials."

*--Jackson S. Schultz, The Leather Manufacture in the United States: a dissertation on the methods and economies of tanning with numerous illustrations to which is added A Report on the relative Economies of Burning Wet Spent Tan by Theron Skeel. New York: Shoe and Leather Reporter, 1876.

[das]

Correction: Thomson, no "p", sorry. Dr. Thomson is retired director of LCC, not current faculty. Google his bibliography on historical leather tanning.

[dw]

@nickb1

In the Gallery (not the most appropriate subforum for it) there was a discussion about closing the facing on oxfords. Thought I'd post a photo of the technique I like the best (even if I don't really know how to do it).

Colour of stitching, etc., aside, and I would have like to see it be lower, it's the macrame'd 'frog' I am referring to....so neat and clean.

Screenshot oxford frog.png

And here's another by the same maker--Branka Kristin:

Screenshot_ Branka Krstin.png

[bcFour]

In making monkstrap shoes, what is the typical or recommended way to attach the buckle to the upper? Elastic? Leather? other?

I made a pair a while back and attached it with some kangaroo leather (reinforced) and had a real bear of a time unbuckling them initially to remove the last. Then, of course had no give to get them buckled again on the client's foot. I had to punch a new hole. ugh.

also had the thought of 'tacking' the facings in their nominal closed position for lasting and then cutting that tacking to remove the last then punching a hole once they are finished??

any input is appreciated!
bob

[dw]

I'm not the best person to answer (I don't make many monks or buckled shoes) but I'll take a shot:

First, mount the buckle with a hand thread/handstitch... overstitching the bar on either side of the prong.

Second...

Option one: Buckle uppers and then last the shoe. When time comes to pull the last, cut those stitches (carefully) and when the shoe is finished, restitch the buckle back on the shoe in the same holes with the same technique.

Option two: Punch hole in billet. Thread a wide shoelace or some of that polystyrene (?) cord through the hole and tie it around the bar such that the hole in the billet corresponds to the end of the prong (as it would if it were buckled). Last shoe. When the time comes to pull the last, cut thread/cord. If the shoe won't buckle properly (as in your example) look no further than your last and the measurements.

Fundamentally, in both of the options above, we are employing the same concept as when we make a derby and lace it closed prior to lasting--lace it where it wants to be, cut it loose before pulling the
last.

Hopefully someone else will chime in here with another way to do it.


Hope that helps....

[bcFour]

Thanks @dw I like the sounds of option 2. Will give that a try when the time comes.

[bcFour]

on linings -
Is it common to skive the topline of liners? I know to cut them to be proud of the topline and then trip off the excess, but looking at a lot of the really top end stuff - the liner seems to disappear more on the topline. Naturally, all very tidy. I'm using some nice 2-3oz veg tan calf and its always still a little 'fluffy' and obvious once trimmed. Or are the top end makers doing some other finishing process to it?

[dw]

@bcFour Not saying it isn't done, but I have never seen the lining skived at the top line. I suspect that if a very heavy lining were wanted...four ounce or more...it might be desirable.

The theoretical ideal is always to be sewing into full substance with at least one line...even when closing overlapped seams, etc.. The skive really should begin just at the point where the stitching will be. Perhaps the second line may go into slightly skived leather, and the third line into slightly more. That really cannot be done with a topline without leaving the topmost line of stitching in weaker substance.

Another consideration is that as you skive, the remaining substance becomes disproportionately weaker and weaker relative to the original strength and depending on how much you remove. This is particularly significant (and noticeable) when leather is 'dry split'--split after tanning and finishing. That's an extreme example but it illustrates the reason for caution.

When you think about skiving, naturally no one wants uncomfortable lumps built into the shoe but when you get right down to it, skiving is as much for the sake of appearance as any other factor. That said, weakening a seam or the leather in the service of aesthetics seems a bit counter-intuitive.

Finally, the universal remedy for obvious edges on a trimmed lining is better leather. But, it is possible, when all is said and done to slightly moisten and burnish those edges...perhaps with a touch of gum dragon.

Hope this helps...

[PhilipB1]

What are the best lining leathers?

I've was told to use "russet goat" on ladies shoes, which I've used. It's and about 1.1mm and trims immaculately - absolutely no fuzz. Is this good for gents shoes?

[bcFour]

I used some french calf from Orion Calf for the last pair of boots. Beautiful stuff and was cleaner (less fluffy) than the milled kip (from Waterhouse) I had used prior.

[dw]

@PhilipB1 This kind of thing is often a matter of opinion but i would not use goat for either men's or womens shoes lining or upper. For most of the years I've made shoes kid and goat was always considered one of the most fragile and damage prone leathers available. I've seen the grain peel on it like someone had been on KP all day with a fifty gallon pail of spuds.

Things may have changed but in my experience, kid and goat are one step beyond sheep but not a long step.

For lining, I would always choose either veg kangaroo or veg calf...one or the other (or both) can be had in 2 ounce or less (I like it more around 3 ounce esp. for men's work) which is near-as-1.2mm. Esp. with the 'roo, the grain structure, density and tensile strength is off the charts by comparison to kid or goat.

PS and on edit...I use milled calf and kip from Waterhouse and Milton Sokol all the time. Milled because it will block to a FW front with less problem than unmilled. English lining kip is a standard that goes way back (as it's name might suggest). I'm pretty sure C Loy's Leather carries vegetable kangaroo.

[PhilipB1]

Sorry, I seem to be lacking knowledge here.
I'm ok with veg kangaroo which I use for slip bead. I've wondered about using it for lining. James Ducker got very keen on the idea when I suggested it, but he mostly uses the russet calf lining.
Russet calf lining - is that the same as "kip"? It seems to be used much the time in UK. Having searched English kip, it seems remarkably hard to buy in UK, but lots in USA! I'm obviously missing something here.
"FW front" - means?

[dw]

@PhilipB1

Well, AFAIK. "russet" is a colour. So go with calf lining. Kip is generally a little older calf with correspondingly larger square footage. So I suspect your "russet calf lining" is fundamentally the same thing or close enough for government work.

"FW" = full wellington--a two piece (front and back) pull on boot. See my IG page There's even a photo of a full front blocker done with 2-1/2 ounce milled veg calf--most recent photo.

[PhilipB1]

I'm making some unlined Oxford shoes from Kudu (around 2.1mm thick). A bit of an experiment, I've not made anything unlined before. I have two questions:

1. Hand sewing the uppers, I'm thinking of using Fil au Chinois, also called "Lin Cable". Double twisted to make a cable and said to have high strength. Comes in various thicknesses, but I have some N°632 (0.51mm diameter) which is a little thicker than I normally use but should be ok. Does anyone have any experience of using this sort of thread, or any opinions as to suitability for sewing uppers?

2. The seam between the quarters and vamp has an overlap, 10mm, skived to nothing on the quarters. Normally I'd glue (with Aquilim 315) and stitch, one row of stitches 2mm in from the edge of the vamp. This leaves the skived edge dependant on glue to hold it down. However, as these are unlined, every time the foot is removed it will tend to pull the skived edge up. So my question is, will the glue be strong enough to hold the skived edge, should I use a stronger glue (such as Colle de Cologne) or should I put another row of stitches in? Another row of stitches is structurally good but aesthetically poor (in my opinion).