Closing techniques

[dw]

Mack,

There's not a one of those that I wouldn't be proud to say I made. Now I know that's not saying much but except for a lack of gimping...maybe...on the last one (the best close-up) it's impeccable. The proportions are pleasing, the stitchwork is perfect...what's not to like?

When I see work like this I wish for something like a Vulcan mind-meld.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Thanks Brendan,
Yes I have cut the patterns and made the uppers.They are just pulled over dry to see the proportions look ok.most are made from left over leather that I have from other pairs.
I am a bit limited as regards brogues as I do not have a notching tool so I keep the edges plain .Hope to get hold of one sometime
I will make the last pic upper as a sample as I really like the leather colour,just need some spare time to finish it

8055.jpg

Same upper different picture
Regards Mack.

[lancepryor]

Mack:

Very impressive; those look excellent to me. I am not such a fan of the diamond shape toe cap, but that is simply an aesthetic perspective. The stitching looks pretty much nice and straight, with only a few areas where the line has irregularities. I'm impressed; it's certainly alot better than my closing (not that that is saying much).

What are you using to make your collars -- do you have a skiving machine, or are you doing it by hand?

Lance

[mack]

Lance, Thanks for your input.Your own closing and making are coming along in leaps and bounds so keep at it. I'm not sure about the diamond shape cap myself but it seems to be getting popular so I thought I would try it.
I still find the stitching difficult,staying consistant is quite a task.Pelle Kraft was helpful to me and he said time on the machine was the trick to it.
I don't have a skiving machine so do my skiving by hand .Can't really justify the cost of a machine unless a real bargain came up.
Not sure what you mean by collars. Is it the beading between the lining and top leather ?
If so I use kid which I got from Crack & son
do you use similar ?
DW
Thank you for the praise but I can assure you that my uppers are full of faults which I am trying to iron out. A lot of it is guess work and I study the closing I get to see ,which is a great help.
Your bootmaking skills must make closing shoe uppers fairly easy for you. What are the main problems you have come across for shoes?
Are the cutters for gimping made to each machine or do they fit all, I believe your friend Dick Anderson makes these cutters sometimes so I may have to get in touch to see if he can help me out.
Regards Mack.

[clairemorgan]

Mack,
I saw 2 beautiful skiving machines yesterday in Mitcham. They are both £1200.00 as they are old. One has not been used but is only the head and needs a table and motor and the other is on a bench with vacuum dust and scrap extractor and works like a hot knife through butter. I cant justify the price for myself.

I am so bad/frightened at skiving its the one thing thats stopping me from moving forward. What is your secret? Frank suggests a Tina knife - which I am going to buy but open to all suggestions.

The shoes are amazing - love them!

Claire

[dw]

Mack,

Oh sure...we all see flaws in our own work. Sometimes it nearly drives me crazy and I think I'll never be any good at this. The hard part about stitching the uppers is using a post machine. It's never easy (for me) to get a really, really smooth line of stitching with a post machine, especially when compared to the results that can be had with a flatbed machine. Yet the flatbed has its problems as well, not the least of which is that in tight or awkward circumstances the stitching can become so constrained or forced that the results are even worse than a novice on a post machine.

As for the gimping tool, I am sure that there are other machines that it will work on besides the standard 31 class Singer. But the main criteria for effective usage is a flatbed machine that has a bottom feed dog that can be set to virtually zero feed with infinite steps in-between. I'm sure it would work satisfactorily with a machine that didn't have an infinite feed adjustment. But you wouldn't have the flexibility to make large or tiny gimping then, they way you do with the Singer 31 class. The other thing about the old Singer 31 class is that the needle bar would accept just about any diameter needle...the machine wouldn't necessarily sew with just any needle, but you can put a wide variety of needles in there. And heck an old Singer 31 class, on a power stand, can be had for somewhere in the neighborhood of £150.00 or the US equivalent. Once you have an adequate machine, the tool itself is so inexpensive compared to the cost of a dedicated gimping machine that it's almost ridiculous.

I was taught to skive by hand, as well, and I'm pretty good at it if I do say so myself. And, think it is one of the most essential skills a maker can have. But a skiving machine is a god-send at times. Not just for speed but for consistency and the ability to skive certain odd-ball leathers. I'm thinking of how hard it is to do a good, even, job on pigskin, for instance. Also, a skiving machine can be quickly set up to split relatively small pieces of leather...very evenly...from which you can then cut out your pieces. I recently split several pieces that were roughly 10"x10" and another set that was 15"x5". Worked out great! I had some cleanup to do but I would have had to buy another whole side of leather to get what I wanted in terms of colour, texture and weight if I had not had a skiving machine with which to split it, whereas this way I just used scraps.

Just keep posting these pics, please...they really are inspirational, Mack.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Claire,

Since it's probably night over there right now but daybreak here, I'll chime in on the skiving bit...

I use a Tina knife--a 270--which is curved both lengthwise and cross-wise (or they used to be) and I push skive. I do this over a curved surface...like a glass jug...so that a)the curved surface of the knife and the curved surface of the glass work against each other to reduce the point of contact between the knife and the leather, and b) so that the crumbs (scraps) fall away from the work. Doing it this way it is very controlled and very precise...once you get the hand of it.

But, I must tell you that in my opinion the knife is not the critical element, nor neither the glass jug nor the method of pushing the knife. Although, as I say, I've done it a number of different ways with a number of different knives...they all work fine...but I keep coming back to this method and these tools.

The critical element is a sharp knife. In fact, I have postulated on a number of occasions that the most important skill a boot or shoemaker can have is the ability to sharpen a knife. If nothing else, learning to sharpen a knife properly will also teach you how to hold a knife and maintain a consistent angle while holding or using a knife. That alone makes a significant difference but in addition the knife itself gets sharp.

The only flaw in all this is the tendency to model your standards of "sharp" to conform with your ability to sharpen. Once you seen or used a really sharp knife it is a revelation, believe me...many things, such as skiving, that once seemed daunting suddenly seem simple.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

I will second DW's advise that it is knife sharpness that is the key. After 3 years at this I am finally getting the hang of sharpening and it makes the skiving like cutting butter with a hot knife.

I have a skiver machine that I use all the time. But you still need to hand skive quite a bit, even if you have the machine. I just doesn't do everything.

[hidesmith]

I learned to skive using belly leather - it was nearly impossible to get a good skive. I did it this way for a while, before realizing there is a benefit to using a better quality piece of leather. When I did start using better leather, I was amazed at the fact that I could now skive pretty well, and without ruining the good quality leather. Use bellies to learn , and you may just learn without knowing it.

In regard to knives and sharpening - If my knife can't take all the hair off a small section of my arm in one rather gentle pass, it needs more work. There is a difference between a knife that will take some of the hair off your arm and a knife that will really shave.

I make my own skiving knives, and experiment with different curves, angles, ect. I have push skiving knives, pull knives and in-between knives. When I skive, I have a strop right handy, and use it every several cuts. Leather dulls a knife pretty quickly. Start sharp and stay sharp while using it.
Good luck!

Bruce Graham

[mack]

Claire,
Don't be put off by your difficulty with skiving.
Get some cheap leather as Bruce says and work on that knife and you will get so good at it you may not bother with a machine and when you make with finer leather it will be a pleasure to work with.I use a tina style knife and a long bladed type with a marble slab to skive on but glass is a good surface too .
DW
I have a flatbed and a post machine but I have only used the post machine regularly as the two machines feel so different I didn't want to confuse myself.
I will look into setting up an old machine just for gimping but for now I will keep the edges plain.
Just as a point of interest I have been looking at old work from London makers Tuczek and Anthony Cleverley and they quite often lightly brogued shoes with plain edges as this would make the shoe more formal to wear in town, although these days people wear all styles any time.
My teacher worked for Tuczek in his time and knew Anthony Cleverley who was considered by many to be the finest maker of his generation. If only we could have a few hours with these old masters we could learn so much, but I use the pictures I have seen as my inspiration and to copy some styles.
Regards Mack

[lancepryor]

Mack:

My understanding is that Tuczek was considered the best in London, even better than Peal or Lobb, so you obviously were trained by one of the best (and it shows!). Terry Moore was trained at Peal -- to your knowledge, were they more famous as bootmakers?

I think it was Pelle or Ken Nicola who told me that G Cleverley have a few old samples by Anthony, and they are really superb. Are those the ones to which you are referring, or are there some pictures of his work floating around somewhere? Where did Anthony work?

All:

The importance of a sharp knife continues to become more apparent, particularly since I don't use a skiving machine.
So, what do folks use to do their sharpening and stropping? I see people using 'sharpening sticks,' but I never know what they have on the sticks --e.g. if it's emery paper, what grit, or if now what is it? Do people use synthetic water stones, real waterstones, arkansas stones, or what? I would love to learn more about what people use.

Thanks,
Lance

[mack]

Lance,
Tuczek were indeed thought very highly of, but in those days the different shops and the makers were more specialized.Tuczek were known for their stylish town and casual shoes and Maxwell and Peal for their riding boots.The makers were also known for certain types of work and they would become absolute masters of say, riding boots or ladies shoes and pump work.
Today we have lost so many of the skills and we have to be jack of all trades.It is possible I could get a riding boot to make then a pump then a normal weight shoe. Not ideal really but this is the way the trade has shrunk. Some makers still specialize a bit. For instance Pelle is a very fine riding boot maker and has made a lot of them in his time. so perfecting his work. Other makers like particular kinds of work but we all have to be fairly versatile to get enough work.

I don't think Anthony Cleverley had a shop. He worked in N.London somewhere and worked for Tuczek as well as far as I know.
I have seen the shoes in Cleverleys shop and they are wonderful .there is also a book of photos of A.Cleverley's work,mostly black and white photos but the class and style of the shoes stands out. He was indeed a fabulous craftsman and I only wish I had met him.
Some of the Japanese shoe sites have some pictures of his work and old shoes
I should be meeting up with Terry Moore soon
and I will ask him about Peals and some of the old makers he knew, he is a wealth of knowledge about the trade.
Regards Mack

[lancepryor]

Mack:

Thanks for the information.

Terry is indeed a wonderful source of information. The 4 days I spent with him earlier this year were filled with stories of many people he worked with over the years; I suggested he should be the source for a book about Peal and about the trade, but he thought that since some Peal family members are still around that a book might not be appropriate. I remember him telling me about a maker who used to finish something like 7 pairs a week! Of course, this fellow had something like 10 kids to feed, so I guess he was what you might call highly motivated.... Terry also gave me a list of all the firms that were in business when he started; someday I'll type it up and post it here.

Please tell Terry I send my best, and that I will be phoning him soon.

I know Pelle did the making for Schneider's boots, and even a bit of closing. He said Mr. Schneider is an interesting fellow.

Glad to know you're keeping busy; I fear the trade will suffer from the downturn in the economy. I've read that some of the Savile Row suitmakers are really hurting and imagine the shoemakers may be facing some challenges ahead.

Lance

[jenny_fleishman]

re sharpening...I have tried a number of methods, including oil stones. I found I could work and work and work, and see no change in the sharpness of the knife. I also tried the Razor Sharp system, but I don't like having a bench grinder set up all the time (or the noise). I eventually switched to water stones. They work much faster than oil stones, and water is easier and less messy to deal with than oil as the lubricant. My favorite stone is a combination 1200/8000 grit stone:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01.091.01&dep t_id=13117

On the 8000 grit side you also rub a Nagura stone on the wet surface before using for extra fine sharpening. (Also sold by Japan Woodworker, of course.)

Japan Woodworker has a large variety of water and other types of sharpening stones in different shapes/sizes/materials, including diamond sharpening items. I have called them and spoken to them on the phone for advice, and am quite impressed. They have a nice catalog, too, worth getting to look at the huge selection of sharpening stone options.

It could also be that some of the other stones they sell might work even better than the ones I have.

In a shoemaking videos I have seen shoemakers use a sharpening stick, and I'd love to see a demonstration of this at the HCC meeting if anyone does it successfully. I bought a diamond sharpening stick and tried it, and it just seemed to put scratches on my knife.

Jenny

[dw]

The near perfect folded edge...for the untutored.

Every now and again we all get "harebrained ideas in response to some technique or process that we aren't fully skilled enough to duplicate. Every now and again these ideas turn into workable techniques that may or may not be an improvement over existing techniques but for us, as individuals, are at least achievable. This is one of those. Whether it is ready for prime time is something only the reader can determine but I have been using it for some time now with very satisfactory results...so satisfactory that I cannot imagine doing it any other way.

This is a a photo tutorial on how the unwashed...and those unschooled in "proper" techniques...can achieve a near perfect folded edge on the top lines of shoes or boots or any other leather project. This technique can, with only minor modification also be applied to making top line beading for those applications where the shape or the material makes a standard beading difficult to apply.

I will demonstrate this using the quarters of a shoe I am currently making. We need several manila file folders, a modeling tool or thin bone folder, a set of dividers such as draftsmen and architects use...loaded with a fine pine pencil or pen...and of course, clicker knife, skiving knife (or skiving machine), rubber cement and some of the corrugated adhesive topline tape.

First, you need a nett pattern. By "nett" I mean the pattern of the final size and shape of the quarter--absent any folding or seam allowances (although the latter would not interfere one way or the other. The "nett" is usually derived from the mean forme, which is, in turn, derived directly from the last. I like to see the nett and all subsequent patterns made from manila paper board such as manila file folders are made of.

Next, we need to make a copy of the nett adding the folding allowance, seam allowances, etc.. This will be a cutting pattern. To do this the nett pattern can be outlined on another piece of manila paperboard and the folding allowance added with a divider set to whatever folding allowance you feel comfortable with...I use 5 mm...roughly.

8214.jpg

8215.jpg

To be continued...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[frank_jones]

DW

I am delighted you are embarking on this subject but can I make one heartfelt plea. The name of this kind of edge treatment has always been a “folded edge” and the process is called “folding”.

Can we please not in invent more terminology for something that has been around for over a hundred years and is well established in a wide range of publications from across the English-speaking world.

Can it please be described as a Folded Edge rather than a Turned Edge? We already have too many alternative terms in boot/shoemaking for things that already have perfectly good names, without adding another.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

[dw]

Frank,

What is the saying?...something to the effect that we are "two peoples separated by a common language"...or something like that.

I have been known to invent terminology a time or two but this is not one of them. "Turning" is what I always heard it called. Maybe it is just different traditions or the diverging development of techniques and skills when separated by an ocean and/or thousands of miles and a, perhaps, unbridgeable cultural divide.

Having said all that, I wholeheartedly agree with the basic (but probably unrealistic) notion that communication can be nothing but facilitated if the lexicon is standardized--if we all understand what is being talked about. I don't know what we would do with all the Scots words that may not be commonplace but are still, in my mind, valid. But I guess that's another cultural divide that is unbridgeable. Not to mention old, venerable terminology such as "toe puff" that no one on this side of the Mississippi would ever admit to putting in his boots or shoes. In that context, I suspect that, to some extent, even language has to evolve.

However, in the interest of understanding...and international relations, of course...I have gone back through and edited my post. It's no biggie, really.

I hope you will keep in mind my preface and be forgiving of my technique...which I am sure will astound and horrify you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

So...having gotten the terminology correct (and I pledge to never make that mistake again)...

Now we need a folding pattern. This will be made from a copy of the nett which has had a millimeter or so, trimmed off the edge that wants folding. This necessitates making a pretty exact copy of the nett, upon which we will mark the trim-off allowance. Again, I use a divider to mark that trim off allowance. It is probably wise to actually trim this copy of the nett and use it to generate our actual folding patterns although this procedure can undoubtedly be approached in several different manners. Then I make two folding patterns for each quarter simply by stacking the manila paperboard and cutting the two pieces simultaneously. These are your folding templates.

[As an aside...I use a one millimeter trim-off allowance in this example but if you are using thick leather the trim-off allowance may be more. Thinner leather less. I want the trim-off allowance to be about half the thickness of the leather. With a 5mm folding allowance, I want to skive the grain side of the quarter about one centimeter wide...in a even, or ever so slightly concave, bevel to the edge. When the edge is folded 5mm inward, the folded edge will come back to the full thickness of the leather or very slightly less if you want a little refinement here. ]

8217.jpg

BTW, the dividers depicted in the photo above are set wider than 1mm. This was done simply for the sake of clarity in the photo.

8218.jpg

Then I soak the edges of these templates...and inward roughly a half inch...with very thin celluloid cement--both sides, all along the edge that wants folding. The celluloid cement must be the consistency of water and you will apply a liberal coating on both sides, several times. But don't exceed three or four applications. Allow to dry in between applications. Be aware that if the cement is too thick, the template will distort. Applying this cement will waterproof and stiffen the manila paperboard.

8219.jpg

The cement depicted in the above photo has been applied a little too thickly. this was done simply because the camera would not capture the presence of the cement had it not been done.

more to come...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 06, 2008)

[dw]

Uh oh!! Sorry what with "cut and paste," I did it again...

I'll change it, I'll change it!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

So with all the prep work on the leather done--cutting the quarters, skiving--the actual folding is next. Rubber cement the template to the flesh side of the quarters such that the template aligns with some fixed edge or such that the template is centered on the quarter with an equal amount of skived leather (5mm) surrounding those edges that want folding. Tap the template tight to the leather. Now apply a wide swath of rubber cement to the template and the skived edges. When dry, turn the quarter over and wet the grain side of the leather all along the edges to be folded. The excess water should be allowed to run off the quarter and not be allowed to get on the cemented side. Some leathers are harder to wet than others. When the leather is actually wet, flip the quarter back over so that the flesh side is again facing upward. You must cut "reliefs" anywhere that you intend to fold in a concave curve. These cuts need not be any closer to the template than the thickness of the leather and perhaps even half again further than that from the template edge. This is to prevent the cuts from showing when the quarter is lined and the lining trimmed. Convex curves do not need to be relieved but will need to have the excess pipes trimmed off after the folding has had a chance to set.

Now, while the leather is still wet, use the back side of your thumbnail to lift and fold upward the folding allowance so that it is firmly butted up against the edge of the turning template. Then, using your finger or the modeling tool or even the bone folder, fold the folding allowance the rest of the way. Having been cemented, and the template having also been cemented, the folding allowance will adhere to the template while conforming very closely to the contours of the template. Some modeling tools have a bent, almost hook-like end. This end is very useful in folding the leather around a convex (or "outside" ) curve, as it can pull the leather in tight while working the excess into manageable pipes.

When your edges are folded, hammer lightly and set the quarters up to dry...preferably overnight.

8221.jpg

8222.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

When the quarters have dried thoroughly, all piped that were created as the leather was folded around a convex curve must be cut off. I usually use a small french edger and I start the cut as far from the folded edge as I can. [Again...and to step back a bit...this is made easier if you used the hook end of the modeling tool to force the pipes away from the edge somewhat when doing the initial folding. Doing so creates the margin that defines where this trimming can begin.]

Now we must release the folded edge and remove the template. I like to cut the template and remove excess so that what remains is only slightly wider than the folded edge. This makes it much easier to remove although you can forego this step if you feel you need to preserve the template.

8224.jpg

Using the hooked end of the modeling tool, release the template from the underlying leather of the quarter. Do this first...do not release the folding allowance yet, which is still cemented to the remnants of the template. At this point I will often insert some of that deeply contour-conforming topline tape between the cut edges of the template and the quarter. The outermost edge of the template...right at the fold...will define where the tape goes and the template will keep the folded edge out of the way and prevent it from re-sticking.

8225.jpg

Now remove the template pieces, again using the hooked end of the modeling tool to free the folding allowance.

8226.jpg

Re-cement the folded edge under the folding allowance making sure to cement the top line tape.

When dry, the folding allowance will fold down and adhere accurately and smoothly along the fold-line established by the template. If you are making something that requires no top line tape, or if you prefer not to sandwich your top line tape safely under the folded edge, then you need not leave the template pieces in place nor will you need to re-cement the folding allowance.

Done correctly, this technique results in the most hassle free and most accurate folding of any technique I have tried. Note I didn't say it was the least labour intensive, but there is a minimum of fussing. Fair curves are preserved, straight edges are kept straight and quarters on left and right shoes will end up as nearly identical as is humanly possible. Guaranteed.

Now I am sure that there are folks out there who do not need to resort to such contrivances. There may even be techniques or machines that can guarantee even the novice near perfect results with out all the prep work or the "invention." But I don't know them. I was never taught them. And I don't like it when I design a straight edge and I end up with is anything but straight. Personally, I don't care how contrived or elaborate this technique is, I don't care how long it takes me. I'm looking for "near perfect" and that what this technique does. I have folded fancy toe caps and collars on boots and use it on all my shoes that require a folded edge.

I hope it will help others.


This last photo shows the results. This may look like one of the photos above but it is not. It is actually the two lateral quarters stacked one on top of the other--nearly a perfect match.

8227.jpg

end finis

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[headelf]

Here's an update on the hirshklieber paste (please correct my spelling on this) created for my presentation, "Sneaky Tricks For Women's Shoes" at the AGM.

It's been 1.5-2 weeks since the paste was made and it's still OK in the refrigerator both the virgin paste and the 50/50 paste/PVA glue combination that can be used for sock linings , counters, bookbinding. Hasn't grown any green fuzzies, yet.

Still has it's holding power. Did a test socklining on a piece of greenboard/tuckboard. Spreads well and sticks well.

8229.jpg

For those who didn't copy down the recipe, here it is:

Paste for counters, sock linings, bookbinding

1 part flour, rye flour or cornstarch
4 parts water
Start with the pan of water. Gradually add the flour, stirring to remove lumps
Heat over medium flame until boiling.
Reduce flame to low
Cook 7-10 minutes until thickened
Pour into dish.
Cover with plastic wrap, forming to the mound
Let cool
Mix 50/50 with a PVA glue such as Elmer’s, Tightbond regular or molding glue
Keep boiled paste and the 50/50 combo tightly covered in refrigerator to retard spoilage. Does not last long. Make this in small batches. ¼ c flour to 1 C water.

[paul]

DW,

Great Demo! This could be shared wih the LeatherCrafters and Saddlers Journal, with it's value to any form of leatherwork where one would like to up the level of their work.

Slick trick with the celluloid cement! It looks like it's the key to making this work.

I appreciate the reminder to consider the thickness of the leather along the edge of the folding pattern, and also not to cut all the way to the edge of the concave curves.


Thank you very much for the effort to put this up for us.

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

Thanks.

Anytime you want a folded edge on any project, you're gonna have to generate a cutting pattern...as distinct from the original sized pattern. And given that you have a sized pattern, it is no great stretch or effort to generate a folding template.

I was trying to get this all posted today...started in the morning and finished up over lunch break...and I simply forgot some photos (not essential) and some points. For instance, when generating the folding template, after I have marked off the take-off margin, I use metal french curves and a thin metal ruler to cut that margin away. This is very accurate and again preserves the straightness of straight edges and the "fair" in the fair curves.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Georgene,

I was thinking about your recipe the other day and wondered where I had stored the photo of the screen you had it displayed on. Thanks for posting it where we can find it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member