Closing techniques

[das]

Paul & Mack,

Mack's right-on about the thin heel-lifts making tighter/firmer heels, but with "historical" work in general stacked heels were more often made from many lifts of thinner leather--rather than then fewer, thicker lifts as we do today. The reasons are several: 1) sole leather was just not generally produced as thick as it has been the past 100 years (9 iron soling is rarely seen before 1850s, and then rarely seen on anything nice; 2) heels were commonly made of scraps, even uppers-leather, with a thicker top-piece for wear, and 3) most of these heels were sewn--only the top-lift was pegged-on, and it's easier to sew through 8-10 lifts of uppers-weight leather, than 4 lifts of sole leather. IOW this heel of fine thinner lifts was just in keeping with the "traditions" and techniques of the day even for things made for wear.

As to the lack of toe spring, this boot was "prize work", never meant to be worn. When you see it in the flesh this will be obvious as it's very narrow--too narrow for wear. Northampton Central Museum also owns two other prize work boots (top boots) from an earlier time (around 1790-1810) that are likewise super work. They have "shell" heels--heels composed of narrow "U" shaped bits that look like a normal heel from the outside, but turned up they are completely hollow in the center, and as I recall one at least had the top-piece pegged on with ivory or bone pegs. How's that for swanky? These two boots used to be on show in the Victorian cases in the big shoe room, semi-permanently mounted to a display board, and one was coming apart from hanging from a tack, so they may be off show now, or in conservation, but you need to ask to see them in all events.

Prize work proliferated after the advent of machinery to defiantly show off by hand what could never be done by machine, especially sewing machines, but what makes these earlier example important, is that they were not a response to machinery per se, but what these workmen saw as declining standards and eroding "good taste" in a trade that was increasingly dominated by mass-production and ready-made work, imports/exports. Mass production in shoemaking was first described in detail in 370 BC (division of labor--clicking, closing, making), and has been lurking in the wings ever since. The 1700s saw an explosion in wholesaling ready-mades, etc., tied to the "colonial" era, the days of "Empire", etc. The Neo-Classical and Romantic movement (later 1700s-1800s) saw a dreamy longing expressed for the simpler "good old days", so it's no wonder surviving examples of prize-work, though mentioned much earlier (as apprentice and novelty show-off work, etc.), seems to date from right around 1790 onwards. Devlin (1840) describes his famous "shamrock tongue" (closed wearing 2 pairs of spectacles, using his daughter's hairs as bristles), well before Elias Howe's infernal sewing machines were introduced to close uppers (1857). The whole topic of prize-work is fascinating, and needs far more attention that it's received--why working men with a living to earn would spend countless hours laboring over wild and wonderful, but unwearable boots and shoes. just to show-off their skills and ingenuity?

[athan_chilton]

9711.jpg

More& more I realize how out of my depth I am here...pity there is no forum for utter beginners who can't yet produce high quality shoes or boots! But if I can't ask questions here, where can I ask them? I am collecting books (thank you Tim for yours--it looks great) and planning to take more classes (Marcell in August) but meanwhile I have to plod onwards with what I have learned so far. For a student like me, that means questions. Boring annoying beginner questions!

My question, if anyone cares to answer it, is: I have used a stitch that I picked up somewhere on my own, for the butt seam at the back of these heavy bison boots. Is this kind of stitch suitable for shoe work?

I have my doubts. But it does make a perfect butt seam w/no possibility of accidentally creating that annoying 'ridge' if one pulls too tight. It also though, looks like it might not be really secure over long period of time, despite being covered by both lining inside and foxing on the outside. Opinions?

[paul]

Athan,

I'm taking risks today. So I'll say I don't have any problem with it.

I know this as a baseball stitch, and I think it does what we ask a stitch to do and leaves a smooth profile. I just used this stitch on the "Big Medicine" boots I post on the gallery recently.

I had intended to leave a lining margin turned to the outside and close the seam with a sewn line of stitches close to the outer layer of my tops. This before I laced the seam. But I forgot and I cut the excess off instead.
I wanted the lining to be closed under the lacing, so I used this baseball handstitch and then followed with my laceing.

It might not be as air tight as a "tunnel stitch", I think it's called, but I'd say it's not a bad choice.

I'm sure others may have different opinions.
But that's me.

OK, back to the bench,
Paul

[athan_chilton]

Thank you, Paul. Nothing wrong with the occasional risk, esp. for me, as a beginner, not yet knowing right from less-right if not totally wrong! I liked the smoothness of the stitch & how the curve of the back was not distorted by the stitching...but it just didn't seem quite as strong as the other stitch (I usually have done a kind of cross-stitch on this seam). I am hoping it will be strong enough once the lining is in place (sewed with the stronger stitch) and I've already sewed on the foxing w/my new post machine (big grin).

[dw]

Athan, Paul,


Risky behaviour all around, I guess......I don't care for it. I don't see anything wrong with it but if I needed to close a seam like that and it wasn't gonna be showing, I'd "jump" stitch it (like a zig-zag) with the patcher.

If the seam was gonna show and the leather was the right temper and thickness I'd round close it ("tunnel" stitch). Round closing produces the strongest seam known to man (I have that from a bona fide authority at the highest levels of the "society." )


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[athan_chilton]

DW, I ain't about to argue with anybody at the highest levels of the 'society'! No way Wonder if there is a place (other than baseballs!) where this stitch would be both appropriate and not weak though. I like the way it makes the seam lie flat.

[dw]

Athan,

This isn't your uptown, high society I'm talking about. No, no, this is the shrouded in medieval mysterie, goat riding, bog water drinking, arcanum kind of society.



And don't let my prejudices and druthers influence you.. That said round closing produces a really flat seam that is also presentable as finished work.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[athan_chilton]

(chuckle) I knew EXACTly what sort of society you were referring to, DW. but...bog water drinking? I hope that's not part of some medieval rite the HCC performed in olden times...

[dw]

Code for single malt Scotch Whisky...on the order of Laphroig Quarter Cask, Lagavulin 16, etc..

Ask Lisa, she only needs to complete the goat riding and greased snake eating rites to be initiated.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[athan_chilton]

Oh oh, that's what I was afeared of. Can NOT drink that stuff. Goat riding, might be hard on the middle-aged bones. Goats are pretty wise and tricksy--I expect one would end up ignominiously on the ground before long! Don't suppose I could substitute something like "herding cats"? Cats are very nearly as evil-minded as goats even if they are less likely to eat one's laundry, or whatever.

Greased snake eating rites? Not so bad--is one allowed to roast the snake first? I had rattlesnake once, as a kid one summer in the wilds of NM. Thought it was like chicken only tougher. (8 year olds will eat anything once, though I drew the line at chocolate covered bees...)

I certainly will ask Lisa for further revelations; I'm sure she will prove a positive gold mine of info, no doubt redolent of mysterie and arte's arcane secrets...

[sorrell]

I would certainly ride a goat or eat a snake before I'd ever, EVER! taste scotch again.

Most sincerely,
Lisa

[dw]

Aye, Weel, it's a braw and manly drrink, lassie...and not every yin is uup to it, are they?

tioreadh

MacSuibhne

[athan_chilton]

Lisa, I'm glad tae know there's mair than one o' us that cannae bear the Scotch! Drink, that is.

I do suppose that a tint of the Laphroig before attempting to straddle a lively goat might be of assistance, however. This might explain some behavior of the Scots, d'ye ken. I've a friend who is a Carlisle; her family were reivers, in the auld border days. Never seen her ride a goat, but she's liable to many another prank if you gie' her aught to tipple!

Um...MacSuibhne, sir, I've ta'en note of the wee dancing icon ye append to your posts on occasion. Surely yon properly kilted Scotsman is NOT performing the belly dance?? If so...what braw whet has *he* been a-drinkin', pray tell?

[proxy_posting]

I think it's the booty dance.

PP

[athan_chilton]

Ah me, and I didn't even see that one coming, PP!! I'm sure you are correct, and that what we are seeing is in fact part of some extremely arcane rite known only to the highest level of that 'society' to which Mr MacSuibhne refers. And what else WOULD it be called, but 'the booty dance'?

'Shoe dance' doesn't quite have the same ring to it

[truzicki]

DW,

Could you share some more information on round closing / tunnel stitching? As in, how does one go about doing it? Or, where can I find some more specifics about it?

And, as an aside, good choice of the "water of life."

Best Regards,
-Tim.

[dw]

Tim,

Hoo boy...I was afraid someone would ask that. I'm not an expert at round closing (calling all experts!!) and I'm sure that I don't do it "correctly.But I'll describe what I've been doing

First you need a leather that is suitable. Veg tans have traditionally been the leather of choice. But I think just as important is a firm temper, a solid corium (grain), and enough thickness.

I think you need at least 3.5 ounce for thickness.

I have round closed GN's burnishable buffalo calf and GH's French calf. Of the two, I think the French calf was thicker but both leathers held up well and neither held up perfectly. The critical element is that the grain not tear around the stitch. I have fooled around with pure veg "shoe" leathers and felt that veg was indeed the ideal.

You need a very fine sewing awl...I have some tiny "cricket ball" awls, if I recall the name correctly...and you need to create a waxed end thread of about three cord linen yarn or two cord Teklon. I wax and tip them with a very fine section of 12lb. or 15lb. monofilament fishing line.

From there it's simple but tedious...you just set a line for stitching about 1/8" to 3/16" away from the edge on each piece you want to join and run a #6 stitch marker along that line. The awl enters the grain surface at a fairly steep angle initially but quickly levels out to emerge on the edge midway between the grainside and the fleshside. It then enters the edge of the other piece midway between the grainside and the fleshside and emerges on th e1/8" line on the grain surface. A bristle is fed from each direction and the thread tightened but not gaffed down. Und so weiter. (Repeat as necessary).

There was a thread here featuring the master of this technique--Al Saguto and even a photo or two.


As for malts...I hate to point you to the really peaty bogwaters right off the bat but my all time favourite so far is Laphroig Quarter Cask. For something a bit tamer, try Balvenie or Glenmorangie or Talsiker or even Glenlivet. Try to buy vintages that are older than 12 years, though, and around 15 years is where the flavours really start to come together and mellow into their own special identities.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[truzicki]

DW,

Thank you -- that was perfect! Granted, it brought up a whole host of new questions, like where to find good sewing awls, and how does one go about making waxed end thread, but I'll do some searching through the achives because I suspect the answers to those questions are lurking out there. As was Al's very informative essay on round closing -- thank you for drawing my attention to that (and thanks to Al for writing it!). I also suspect this is something with which I'll need a whole heap o' practice -- as I'm learning do most things of any worth!

As far as the single malts go, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. I might add that it stands to reason that a fellow with your depth of knowledge and experience would also possess good taste and judgement! I favor the Islay scotches myself -- I discovered Ardbeg some time ago while living in Edinburgh. It's not something I'll serve to guests until I get a sense of their tastes, however -- most folks will do nicely with a double-casked Balvenie (which is lovely, I admit).

Anyhow, thank you again for the information -- now I've some practice ahead of me.

Best Regards,
-Tim.

[dw]

Tim,

Well, I have a lot of practice pieces laying around the shop. Took every one of them to get me to the point I was ready to commit to a shoe. I did round closing on two pair of buckle shoes--"neo-Jacobite" to stretch a term--and they both turned out pretty good. "Good enough for guvmint work," at any rate.

Good luck finding tiny curved awls, however. I don't think anyone is making them that small anymore.

As for the malt...sounds like you're already pretty savvy. I misinterpreted your remark as a question and responded as if I were giving advice to a neophyte. Sorry 'bout that.

I have tried just about every Islay malt I could lay my hands on and always seem to come back to Lagavulin or Laphroig. I wasn't always so keen on Laphroig, either. But the trick there is to recognize that there's a world of difference and drinkability between the 10 and the 15. And the Quarter Cask might be the best malt I've ever tasted.

There's a treatise, of sorts, that's both informative and very entertaining here

And the gentleman who wrote it may be one of the most knowledgeable folks I've ever "spoken" to. Worth the time if you've a mind.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[truzicki]

Ah, DW -- that's a great link! Cheers for that! And, neophyte or no, I'll never disparage the chance to learn something new -- so please, keep the knowledge a'coming!

Thanks again, and all the best,
-Tim.

[courtney]

I dont know where to post this but,

If you make a boot with a counter cover like an engineer boot, where do you put the stiffener? is it between the outside of the back of the boot and the cover, or between the lining?

Does it get sewn in?

Out of curiosity, what machine could sew the backstrap on a boot like that?

[tmattimore]

Courtney.
The counter goes betwwen the shaft and the counter cover. Unless you "hang" the lining you can't get it in between the shaft and lining. I use a zig zag machine to close the shaft and a patch machine for the back strap. I have tried a post machine but it does not work well on taller boots.
Tom

[courtney]

Thanks Tom,
I want to try making some of these in the near future. I have "pattern cutting step by step" and a couple others that I think have a pull on boot that I figured I could modify, and D.W.s "western boot making" that I thought would probably be pretty applicable exept for the counters and side seams. But, now that I am really starting to think about it I'm not sure if I really have any idea how to do this!

Are the linings all glued in? I have a pair of Wesco's that feel like the vamp liner and counter lining are all glued. If you could offer me any tips or guidance on how to make engineer boots that would be awesome!

Thanks for your help already,
Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on October 04, 2009)

[das]

I am going through an "interesting" ( albeit frustrating) experience and thought it might be fun or at least beneficial to bring it out into the light of day here for discussion.

Like many of us I'm sure, I'm running several older Singer sewing machines for uppers closing, most of them are deemed "obsolete" by today's industrial standards, so spare parts and now needles are getting increasingly difficult to find. In my case I often need to use 3 different machines to close a single upper (back-strap boots), so the needles, threads, and sewing all need to look flawlessly like the same machine. The weakest link in this chain is my back-strap machine (11-17 Singer), the smallest needle for which is a size #19. My other machines feed #89-70 bonded nylon thread fine through a #16 needle, though "industry standards" call for an #18-#19. I think this makes too big a hole for the thread--looks "cheap" like mass-produced to my eye. So, for back-strap boots I'm stuck with #19 needles and #69 thread all the way around on all machines. But I digress...

Each machine's manual calls for "X" Singer needle system. Inspecting all the machines and my stock of needles yesterday, turns out for years each one has been running fine with 2 or 3 (even 4!) entirely different systems, and none the one called for in its manual. I found one needle that sews fine in 3 different machines, though it does need to be set a little lower in one needle clamp to stitch right. So, before I go re-adjusting needle bar lengths, or something drastic, let me ask where is there a cross-referenced chart on which needle systems are compatible, which are interchangeable, etc.?

The second part of my conundrum is this: I have always preferred "narrow wedge" points and "narrow reverse twist" points for most of my work (influenced by Swaysland's 1905 textbook and the like). I have been told by a Forumite this AM that "triangle" points give fantastic results, like the 100 year old closing with silk, etc. My needle supplier offered me "triangle" points, but I turned my nose up at them, but since they are currently available in all the sizes and all the needle systems I use, maybe I should just pull the trigger and buy. What's the opinion here on "triangle" points for fine closing?

Needle/thread size--likewise, I have always sewed with #69-70 bonded nylon (top thread) and monofilament "Nymo" (bobbin) in a #16 needle. This give a nicely filled-in needle hole. Recently I bought a stock of #46 bonded nylon and am thinking of going with #14 needles for that. "Industry standards" again call for larger needles combined with smaller thread sizes than I like the look of. Anybody have any suggestions on relative thread/needle sizes?

[dw]

Al,

You're right on the money about the thread filling the hole but the other thing is that even though it might seem possible some needle sizes are just too small for the thread. You simply can't run a size 69 thread through a size 14(90)needle,for example. Yes, you can thread it...you can put the 69 thread through the eye of a #14 needle...but if you persist, it will cause trouble as you stitch--fraying and tangles. The thread must go through the eye of the needle almost loosely.

I know you're familiar with my old test, but for those who aren't--cut a piece of thread, about 12 inches long and thread a loose needle onto this length. Let the needle hang and raise one end of the thread above the other...then the other end above the first. If the needle slides easily and rapidly from one end to the other, it will work. If it hangs up, it will hang up while stitching.

I think you are wise to go with the tri-point needles. I have recently heard...from impeccable sources...that they are the very thing. Like you, I have always used nrtw but I know that the manufacturers are discontinuing some of these ancienne ponts and the tri-point seems to be on the ascendant. I am confidant that tri-points will track better than twists and they will certainly pierce hard grained leathers a little better, as well.

I might suggest that in the absence of a smaller needle for the 11-17 that you sew with size 69 thread and the #19 needle and when done, dampen the seam and bone the holes closed. Will it work? It should? But I don't have that machine so I can't say if it will meet your expectations or not...just a thought.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member