The Crispin Colloquy

Tex,
There was a popular four-piece boot in the 1800's
( 2nd half ) named the opera boot( English origin) which varied the
tongue heighth though I've not seen one with a counter tongue. Some vamp tongue cuts reached to within two or there inches of the top bead and were elaborately cut - much in the vein of "flaming "designs. Opera boots were considered
dress boots, as the name would tend to imply.Sears early catalogs list a plain Opera boot without the high tongue.
Dixon Boot Co.( pre-Wichita Falls days in Okla) pictured a high tongue vamp and counter boot on their advertisements in The Cattleman's magazine which happens to be almost identical to a Sears shoemakers catalog photo dated 1897-98.
Pablo

DW,

Pablo is coming up with some good documentation on the Sandhill, and Lisa is going to give us an account from Ray Dorwart in a few days. I 'm sure we will be finding the true origin of the style shortly. Pablo is a very valuable source of history of the trade.....TR

Pablo,

I am not an historian (as I've said many times before) and I readily yield credibility to you or anyone who is an historian or has access to resources that exceed my own meager and limited ones.

That said, I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing (Heck, I'm not sure Tex and I are talking about the same thing). But I have catalogs going back to 1871 and the Opera boots I see in these catalogs, have an *extended* tongue...often running far up the leg and quite elaborate...but the "quarters" and counter covers are not any higher than usual.

So can you clarify? Were there several variations of the "Opera" boot? Can you pinpoint...document...perhaps post a scanned jpg...that illustrates an Opera boot with a higher than usual vamp/quarter?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
As stated, the opera boot observed has only an extended vamp tongue not a counter tongue. The citation is US Patent 162916 (1875 in Illinois). The vamp cut is flame style from the side seam to the end of the tongue - a very fancy and long tongue. No such cut is made on the counter. There is only one image.
The other mentioned boot image,,, the Dixon and the Sears catalog boots may have been more influential. Both the vamp and counter on those boots have broad and long tongues( 4-5 inches..best guess).
These are examples in response to an inquiry by Tex as to the origin of vamp and counter tongues.
I'm jpg challenged , so don't expect an image but you can see them in the sources cited.
Pablo

Pablo,

Thanks for the info. I'm still confused however and ask you to bear with me...

Is the Opera boot that you refer to anything like this: See how the vamp and counter cover are higher than normal?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tex,

Is this (photo above)the the style of boot you are calling the Sandhill?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

That's it. Of course I didn't put that title to it and I really don't care to make any of them. I will send them to you! .......TR

DW,
The opera boot Devlin described in 1841 makes clear that.." the foot part has the vamp and quarters of a shoe ...". Each of the examples I
have seen that are called Opera only vary the vamp by extending the vamp tongue, sometimes way-up.
The boot you've shown appears to have a predecessor model in the Hyer's catalog #12 of 1918. The vamp and counter are symmetrically cut but not in the fleur-de-lis style. Both rise high just as your boot shows.The top is back seamed.The vamp/counter seam is welt-less.The boot
was given the name Hyer's Dandy - a patent leather leg and velour calf vamp.Its a beaut and recommended " especially for show work".
Pablo
Pablo

Pablo,

Thanks. That's what I thought too. The Opera boot was just a dress wellington with a very high and sometimes extremely elaborate tongue.

The boot Tex is talking about appears to be something entirely different. It is essentially--functionally, technically, mechanically--a full wellington.

Your provenance of 1918 in the Hyer boot catalog squares with my 1926 Hyer boot catalog. Hyer also had a work boot that had the "vamp" rising at least halfway up the top...higher than the photo I posted here. I make that style (or a "re-interpretation" of it), as well.

In any case, both of these dates, pretty much invalidate any claim that Blucher came up with the style, wouldn't you think?

It would be interesting, however, to see how far back the style does go. Surely, since the full wellington predates the Civil War by some goodly amount, the "not-so-full full wellington" must have been germinating some time well before the turn of the century.

I salute your scholarship...I wish I had access to the catalogs you mentioned in your previous posts. If I can ever help you become a little more jpg savvy, let me know. Scanning and posting a lithograph from an old catalog like that can really be helpful.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

All,
Talking about elaborated tongues, here is one from Stockholm, 1876.


Here is the same boot seen from the counter cover side.


This boot where probably made for a contest. It is amazing to see the stuff the makers before us made. It makes you humble!

JEM

Janne,

Yes, that looks like what I've seen called an Opera boot in the old catalogs I have. And I couldn't agree with you more...I've seen some nice contemporary work, some of it highly refined and very plain, some of it elaborate and highly "artistic." But the work being done in the 18th and 19th century, can be truly amazing...especially when you consider that a good part of it was done without the aid of a sewing machine.

For people not familiar just consider...some of the work like Janne has depicted in his photos was sewn all by hand and sometimes at as fine a stitch length as "64 to the inch." Get out a size six (if you can find it) round point needle and put it in your Singer 31 class machine. Set it for the finest stitch you can sew (without cutting the leather) on a fine grained leather like kangaroo. Guess what? You won't even be able to get close to 64 to the inch.

And the cutout work on that tongue was done with a knife, by hand. No chisel point cutting blades on a 31 class, either. Ok, you could probably do that...once. But would the mate be a perfect match?

Cuban heels...wish I could figure out how they did those super clean collars that aren't closed with he sideseam.

Thanks for posting that photo, Janne. Like you I'm always inspired.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
A correction to the date on my last post is:
the Hyer catalog # 12 dated 1917 not 1918.

About Blucher and the enlarged vamp/counter on the Sandhill & Dandy... don't be too emphatic that
Blucher was not involved in the design. The reason is that Blucher wandered far and wide between the years 1896 and 1915. He wrote of being
acknowledged best designer and there is report of
his visit to Kansas City as well as Olathe( Hyer home ) prior to his move to Wyoming.If Tex has come across the rumor that Blucher could have inspired or created the pattern.. well lets say the jury is still out.He was unquestionably THE style innovator of the period. Since that particular design did not
develop further and effectively was the end of the road,makers obviously moved on to other more versatile and appealing work. For that reason it
rates a minor blip on the import chart of regional
styling.
I agree about the germinating aspect of designs, which by the way includes the wellington you keep bring up. When Hoby(1817)put the wellington together,a multitude of non-standardized patterns existed in London. All the elements were there for him to choose and pick from. Possibly, the Clarence for instance ( welted , four piece but half-boot design)could simply have been given a taller top and presto.. a wellington.
Pablo

Thanks for the peek at the past Janne. Now I have a clear idea of what a cuban heel is. Can anyone tell me if the opera boots were made of thinner material as a matter of custom? They seem that way.

DW
looking at the boot you posted, I start to think about the heel. When you build up the heel, there is almost always extra circumference to help hold the spurs. Is this for the sake of tradition or is it because the customers wish it that way? From what I’ve seen when on trips home, many working cowboys or riders use lase-ups now.

By the way, great subject everybody.

I love vacation
CW

Cw,

I just had to throw this in. The pick-up riding cowboys are wearing the cheap lace-ups because their payment on the pick-up is $600.00 to $ 800.00 a month.....TR

HCC members,
After giving the matter of the origin of the Sandhill and Hyer's Dandy questions posed by Tex and DW, I decided to let the cat out of the bag.I've known this for some years and find it curious that inquiries like this have not been asked before.
Since I am writing a book on the history of bootmakers and the trade, I was at first reluctant
to divulge the following but its an apropriate time to at least will allow me some venting and
paying my debt to the people who allowed me to interview them in order to gather the information
I'll now pass to you.
Texas born G.C. Blucher was the son of a German immigrant bootmaker who was apprenticed to his father at 14 years of age.His father died when
Gus was 20-21 and he joined H.J.Justin until 1915
when he began his own shop in Wyoming.At the Justin shop, Blucher was the designer and the stiching patterns are distintively Blucher. I mention that because those stich patterns continue
into his first issue catalog of 1915 and he would not have used anyone else's patterns in his first catalog.
Now to the Sandhill -
1.The 1915 Blucher catalog has a nameless boot on page #2 titled style 20.Blucher used double digit numbering for all his patterns( boot styles), so this had to be one of his earliest. It has the hi
vamp cut like the Sandhill..BUT.. the low counter as the Opera boot does. The next page(#3) has the HI vamp AND the HI counter as the Sandhill does! The counter liner has been stitched thru the outer counter but the vamp and counter cut meet at the side welt just as the Sandhill does.
2.By 1818 Blucher drops the style from his catalog.
3.The style of leaf stitching ...The Sandhill leaf
pattern DW reproduced is Blucher's style. Its a curve-to-the-tip finish and a sweep in the stem
Hyer must have borrowed from him.Hyer and Blucher were purportedly mutually respectful if not good friends.
Pablo

Pablo,

Roger that on Blucher. I knew that Blucher and Hyer were more or less contemporaneous but I didn't know that Blucher was considered *the* designer of the the times. Very interesting, that. My teacher always called the narrow slant-back box toe (chisel) a "blucher" toe.

Presumably, Hoby was the maker who built Wellsley's boots? Where would one find a catalog (visual or otherwise) of the styles of the time? Considering that the full wellington was **the** man's boot for most of the 19th century, I'd like to see some of the predecessors of the full wellington.

BTW, I knew you were writing a history of boots (I talked to you on the phone once, remember?) I have often wondered if you were worried that some of what you were posting here might not be stuff you wanted to reserve for the book. Once upon a time, in my hubris, I considered writing a book on the history of western boots (along with Al Saguto who was the only reason I thought I might be able to pull it off--he's very knowledgable). I've long since realized that I don't have either the mindset nor the resources for that kind of historical research. But I wanted to make the connection between the Eastern European sideseamed boots of the 14th century and later (rather than the somewhat dubious connection of Spanish or Mexican influence) and the present day cowboy boot.

But I will tell you true...I've written books, I am writing one right now on making the full wellington. And anyone who thinks that it is easy, or a short term project, is either crazy or not willing to do the job as well as he can possibly do it. (in my case maybe not as well as someone else might...but the best I know how) So I wouldn't worry about divulging any secrets, Pablo. Anyone foolish enough to steal the stuff you post here, still has to document it or lose crdibility. It's the same kind of deal as with making boots...or making full wellingtons. You can talk about it til you're blue in the face but if you can't do it and can't show that you can do it...like with photos...then it's just so much hot air.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Chris,

Actually, I do lots of closely trimmed heelseats. In fact, I take great pride in how refined a heel seat I can make. But I also get orders from my buckaroo customers for "spur tables." Col. Frank Finch, the old boy who taught me to make saddles, was a sure-enough "waddie" (back when they were still called waddies) and he would drive a horse shoe nail into the back of his heel to keep the spur from dropping down. Trouble is, as time went by and these guys started riding around in pickup trucks, they found that the horseshoe nail tore up the floor mats (that's just tongue-in-cheek supposition--but true, nonetheless). It was talking to him that got me interested in how to design a spur table that would hold the spur without the cowboy having to bend the spurs or put on a longer chain.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Pablo,

I would have posted this in private email but your email address is not available. As you can probably tell, I have a lot of Blucher influences in my boots. I got that from my teacher...Mike Ives. I would very much like to see a copy of that old blucher catalog you have. Would it be possible to get a photocopy? Glad to reimpburse you for your trouble.

Email me...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
Some boot catalogs from Wellesley's time? NO. There are none.
Paintings yes.A book by the wife of a distant relative of the Iron Duke,"Wellington, the years of the sword" has some telling images of the Duke wearing Hessians prior to the Waterloo battle days
and a painting of the wellington boot in profile
done in 1827- probably as close to the original as we're likely to find.
The Blucher original copy can be arranged.What's the address?
pablo

D.W.

-------
wish I could figure out how they did those super clean collars that aren't closed with he sideseam.
-------

It was made the same way the "West End" trade still are making the hunting boot collar i.e. the collar is sewed edge to edge with the lining and then folded over the top. The boot on the pic where lined the whole way down at the back but only at the top on the front panel. No lining is sewed into the side seam. The same goes for the counter, it seems to be sewn in after the boot was turned and is about an inch longer then the sideseam. The counter is open as on todays western boots.

JEM

I re-read my last posting and I saw that I had used the wrong measurement scale!

The counter was about 1 cm longer then the side seam and not 1 inch as I wrote.

JEM

Pablo,

Thank you! I appreciate it immensely.

My address is:

D.W. Frommer II--Bootmaker
827 NW Birch
Redmond, OR 97756

(Same address as where you send your HCC dues )

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Janne,

Thanks for the info. I need to work on that technique a bit. Al has a book put out by the NorthHampton, I believe, which has a pair of boots made by W.F. Atwood. [I wish he'd scan it and post it.] They're gorgeous and have that collar bit on them--it's really a top binding but very, very clean.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tex
Maybe you can tell me if you make any lase-ups for working cowboys or people that ride on a regular basis. Maybe I made a statement about the lase-ups that is not correct. It is partially based on the some of the sheriff dept. posses and a few other things.

DW
thanks for the info.

CW

Chris,

Lace up or packers are not popular in Texas. I have made them but don't care to . The ankle tops were popular in the 50s and 60s but I don't get calls for them any more. What I was referring to was the cheap Justin lacers and the other factory lace ups......TR