Insoles and inseaming
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homeboy
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
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paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Beautiful Jake!
What weight is your insole?
It's difficult to tell with such a great close up.
Such clean work is evidence of a sharp knife and keen control. That insole looks like it would be a pleasure to inseam.
I look forward to meeting you in Guthrie.
Paul
What weight is your insole?
It's difficult to tell with such a great close up.
Such clean work is evidence of a sharp knife and keen control. That insole looks like it would be a pleasure to inseam.
I look forward to meeting you in Guthrie.
Paul
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homeboy
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Hey Paul,
Nice to hear from you! Thank You!
It's a good 11-12 iron. I gave my old camera to my wife and my new one doesn't have all that fast of a lense, which leads to a shallow depth of field. Sorry about that!
As you already know, in this business sharp tools are a must. It just makes things a lot easier. And that's why it's one of the first things Dee Dubb concentrates on with first time students.
You're absolutely right. Inseaming with an insole set up like this is just a pleasure. You can really apply the pressure and set up a water-tight seal.
Which leads me to thinking how I would handle an insole of say...6 iron weight. I don't do light weight shoes. I guess I would set up the feather as shown here, and place a very shallow vertical cut for my inside channel. Bottom line, I think it's important to set up "a" shoulder, no matter how shallow, on the holdfast next to the feather. Just keep in mind the curvature of the bottom of the last.
Same here on the upcoming meeting. It'll be a blast! Take care!
Jake
Nice to hear from you! Thank You!
It's a good 11-12 iron. I gave my old camera to my wife and my new one doesn't have all that fast of a lense, which leads to a shallow depth of field. Sorry about that!
As you already know, in this business sharp tools are a must. It just makes things a lot easier. And that's why it's one of the first things Dee Dubb concentrates on with first time students.
You're absolutely right. Inseaming with an insole set up like this is just a pleasure. You can really apply the pressure and set up a water-tight seal.
Which leads me to thinking how I would handle an insole of say...6 iron weight. I don't do light weight shoes. I guess I would set up the feather as shown here, and place a very shallow vertical cut for my inside channel. Bottom line, I think it's important to set up "a" shoulder, no matter how shallow, on the holdfast next to the feather. Just keep in mind the curvature of the bottom of the last.
Same here on the upcoming meeting. It'll be a blast! Take care!
Jake
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romango
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Jake,
I like the look of that feather. I have been doing it more like this:
where I am more squared off at 'a'. I think this causes my awl to tend to dive back into the insole material after it exits the holdfast. I'm going to put more of a slope on it from now on.
I like a little more room to angle the awl, as it goes in at 'b' compared to the original picture DW posted.
I like the look of that feather. I have been doing it more like this:
where I am more squared off at 'a'. I think this causes my awl to tend to dive back into the insole material after it exits the holdfast. I'm going to put more of a slope on it from now on.
I like a little more room to angle the awl, as it goes in at 'b' compared to the original picture DW posted.
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homeboy
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Rick,
At "B", just take a narrow french edger and have at it. You can take as "little" as you want off at an angle. It does give you a better approach to the job at hand. And with the filler piece in place, I don't see any disadvantages.
As you can see on my pics, I like a little more "meat" at the feather corner where the awl exits the holdfast, just as you mentioned. Personally, I think it makes the feather stronger with less chance of curing up after some wear.
I appreciate your kind words.
At "B", just take a narrow french edger and have at it. You can take as "little" as you want off at an angle. It does give you a better approach to the job at hand. And with the filler piece in place, I don't see any disadvantages.
As you can see on my pics, I like a little more "meat" at the feather corner where the awl exits the holdfast, just as you mentioned. Personally, I think it makes the feather stronger with less chance of curing up after some wear.
I appreciate your kind words.
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relferink
Re: Insoles and inseaming
All,
Great discussion, I've been following it wanting to jump in so here I am. So much information in such a short time.
I find the method described by Al very interesting. I was taught the method as in fig. 245, making the width of the feather only 2.5 to 3 mm (about 1/8" ). The feather is slightly beveled from 2/3rds insole thickness a the holdfast to 1/3rd at the feather line. If I interpret Jack's pictures correctly it's similar in the slanted feather. I was taught on a 6 to 8 Iron insole. The depth of the inside channel I cut 1/3rd insole thickness and at a slight angle, about 60 degrees. The same angle the feather is cut with, just facing the other way. If it's not clear let me know and I'll come up with a drawing.
No one ever had the clarity of mind to link the feather width to the thickness of the material you are sewing. (at least not someone teaching me) It makes so much sense it's hard to believe it's not common practice.
Al, how do you vary the feather distance, considering the thickness at the toe and counter is more than other areas? Do you angle your knife more when you cut the feather around the toe?
Back to DW's original question, when making your own welt, how deep a channel do you lay in your welt? Thinking about it I believe that having that channel makes a significant difference in protecting the inseam thread from the outsole awl.
Just my
Rob
Great discussion, I've been following it wanting to jump in so here I am. So much information in such a short time.
I find the method described by Al very interesting. I was taught the method as in fig. 245, making the width of the feather only 2.5 to 3 mm (about 1/8" ). The feather is slightly beveled from 2/3rds insole thickness a the holdfast to 1/3rd at the feather line. If I interpret Jack's pictures correctly it's similar in the slanted feather. I was taught on a 6 to 8 Iron insole. The depth of the inside channel I cut 1/3rd insole thickness and at a slight angle, about 60 degrees. The same angle the feather is cut with, just facing the other way. If it's not clear let me know and I'll come up with a drawing.
No one ever had the clarity of mind to link the feather width to the thickness of the material you are sewing. (at least not someone teaching me) It makes so much sense it's hard to believe it's not common practice.
Al, how do you vary the feather distance, considering the thickness at the toe and counter is more than other areas? Do you angle your knife more when you cut the feather around the toe?
Back to DW's original question, when making your own welt, how deep a channel do you lay in your welt? Thinking about it I believe that having that channel makes a significant difference in protecting the inseam thread from the outsole awl.
Just my
Rob
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das
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Rob,
I begin marking for the feather's width by tracing a line around, varying it's distance from the edge according to "X" plus "Y" plus "Z". As I come from Devlin's "Thumb Nail School", I just pinch my index finger and right thumb tightly together using my finger as the edge-guide and the thumb-nail to trace. I start at the heel breast-line and go wide in the waist, narrower to the joints up to the side of the toe, then widen it a bit around the tip of the toe to account for the added bulk there, then the same variations down the other side. The heel-seat I do differently because there're no welt-issues back there.
With the feather marked-out, I begin by pairing it down very slightly with a knife--no direct cuts downward or inward, just sort of skiving the feather into a slope to the edge. At the very edge I aim to reduce it to no less than 1/3rd the leather's thickness, but this is achieved by both skiving and peening/paning. While the leather's still damp, after pairing it down, I then use the hammer pane to beat the feather down into a hollow curved shape so it looks not unlike fig. 245, just without the sharp corner and vertical wall. Peening/paning compresses and hardens the feather too, making it firmer and less apt to curl up I find.
With the feather made, I then score off another line, traced with my thumb-nail, inboard of the feather to define the width of the holdfast ridge so it, too, is equal in width to "X" plus "Y" plus "Z", or so the seam is balanced with equal thicknesses both sides (IOW the aggregate thickness of uppers and welt on one side--the holdfast ridge of the insole on the other are equal in bulk). A balanced seam is a stronger seam, less likely to have a weak side if the materials being joined are the same substance on both sides.
If the insole is stout and thick enough, I make a shallow vertical cut to form the channel, and "wiggle" it open, then burnish it deeper--that's the channel in the insole. If the insole is too thin, light, or weak, I simply trace this inboard line, burnish it to define it better, and hole/sew the insole without any channel (this may be what happened, DW, when I was demonstrating it for you 9-10 years ago). The channel cut, when made, is no deeper than 1/3rd the thickness as you say; or what I use as a guide instead--no deeper than just enough to recess the sewing thread flush to the surface of the insole. After welt-sewing I "bed" the inseam stitches by tapping them flat with the pane/peen of the hammer (tangent to the line of sewing) and then rub the seam down hard with the hammer handle or long-stick. The channel usually closes up enough to hide/protect the inseam stitches on the insole-side 98%.
Assuming there might be a last, insole leather, and a few knives at Lisa's shop next month, prop me up on a stool in a corner and I'll show you
I begin marking for the feather's width by tracing a line around, varying it's distance from the edge according to "X" plus "Y" plus "Z". As I come from Devlin's "Thumb Nail School", I just pinch my index finger and right thumb tightly together using my finger as the edge-guide and the thumb-nail to trace. I start at the heel breast-line and go wide in the waist, narrower to the joints up to the side of the toe, then widen it a bit around the tip of the toe to account for the added bulk there, then the same variations down the other side. The heel-seat I do differently because there're no welt-issues back there.
With the feather marked-out, I begin by pairing it down very slightly with a knife--no direct cuts downward or inward, just sort of skiving the feather into a slope to the edge. At the very edge I aim to reduce it to no less than 1/3rd the leather's thickness, but this is achieved by both skiving and peening/paning. While the leather's still damp, after pairing it down, I then use the hammer pane to beat the feather down into a hollow curved shape so it looks not unlike fig. 245, just without the sharp corner and vertical wall. Peening/paning compresses and hardens the feather too, making it firmer and less apt to curl up I find.
With the feather made, I then score off another line, traced with my thumb-nail, inboard of the feather to define the width of the holdfast ridge so it, too, is equal in width to "X" plus "Y" plus "Z", or so the seam is balanced with equal thicknesses both sides (IOW the aggregate thickness of uppers and welt on one side--the holdfast ridge of the insole on the other are equal in bulk). A balanced seam is a stronger seam, less likely to have a weak side if the materials being joined are the same substance on both sides.
If the insole is stout and thick enough, I make a shallow vertical cut to form the channel, and "wiggle" it open, then burnish it deeper--that's the channel in the insole. If the insole is too thin, light, or weak, I simply trace this inboard line, burnish it to define it better, and hole/sew the insole without any channel (this may be what happened, DW, when I was demonstrating it for you 9-10 years ago). The channel cut, when made, is no deeper than 1/3rd the thickness as you say; or what I use as a guide instead--no deeper than just enough to recess the sewing thread flush to the surface of the insole. After welt-sewing I "bed" the inseam stitches by tapping them flat with the pane/peen of the hammer (tangent to the line of sewing) and then rub the seam down hard with the hammer handle or long-stick. The channel usually closes up enough to hide/protect the inseam stitches on the insole-side 98%.
Assuming there might be a last, insole leather, and a few knives at Lisa's shop next month, prop me up on a stool in a corner and I'll show you
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Rob,
I was glad to hear that someone else was taught to use a fixed width on the feather and about the same width as I was taught.
When I started this thread, I was just then dealing with a pair of boots I made on which I was replacing the sole. Along several short stretches I was compelled to re-inforce the inseam because my outseam had cut the stitches. I used to see this problem all the time on commercially made shoes and boots when I was repairing and I even had several pairs of deconstructed handmade West End shoes sent to me that showed evidence of the same problem.
I guess I knew what I needed to do...cut my feather wider or move my outseam further outward on the surface of the welt...but hoped that I was missing some detail that would allow me to go on using the techniques and the tools I had been using.
We all tend to use what we know and I don't think I can easily convert to Al's way of doing it but the theory and the rationale behind how and why he does it that way, as well as input from Nasser and Jake and Paul and others, has already given me the knowledge to modify my techniques.
Tell me why...give me a reason or a rationale and hey! I'm open and easy. Modification is good! I'll take it any day over calcification.
I will say one other thing, by way of offering my own rationale--despite Plucknett, I don't cut away at KLM. I think it leaves a hollow that never gets filled in and consequently will create a depression in the foot side of the insole. And yes, more or less depending on how deep you cut it and how much is beveled out...but its still a void. As Al suggested (and that demo he gave me at my shop some 10 [gasp]
years ago is really when I stopped doing it) if one needs to open the channel up a bit to allow the awl a better path, one can simply burnish that same configuration (KLM) in the leather, and it will close back up when you're finished inseaming. With no hollow/void.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I was glad to hear that someone else was taught to use a fixed width on the feather and about the same width as I was taught.
When I started this thread, I was just then dealing with a pair of boots I made on which I was replacing the sole. Along several short stretches I was compelled to re-inforce the inseam because my outseam had cut the stitches. I used to see this problem all the time on commercially made shoes and boots when I was repairing and I even had several pairs of deconstructed handmade West End shoes sent to me that showed evidence of the same problem.
I guess I knew what I needed to do...cut my feather wider or move my outseam further outward on the surface of the welt...but hoped that I was missing some detail that would allow me to go on using the techniques and the tools I had been using.
We all tend to use what we know and I don't think I can easily convert to Al's way of doing it but the theory and the rationale behind how and why he does it that way, as well as input from Nasser and Jake and Paul and others, has already given me the knowledge to modify my techniques.
Tell me why...give me a reason or a rationale and hey! I'm open and easy. Modification is good! I'll take it any day over calcification.
I will say one other thing, by way of offering my own rationale--despite Plucknett, I don't cut away at KLM. I think it leaves a hollow that never gets filled in and consequently will create a depression in the foot side of the insole. And yes, more or less depending on how deep you cut it and how much is beveled out...but its still a void. As Al suggested (and that demo he gave me at my shop some 10 [gasp]
years ago is really when I stopped doing it) if one needs to open the channel up a bit to allow the awl a better path, one can simply burnish that same configuration (KLM) in the leather, and it will close back up when you're finished inseaming. With no hollow/void. Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dearbone
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
DW,
Thanks to you for bringing this very important topic up and others that willingly told us about their methods.
I do cut a slit(small cut on an angle) on the inside of the insole feather edge(holdfast)at M (fig 245) and lift it up,my awl inters at L a little below the surface of the insole instead of starting from the top surface which is weaker in substance and might be draged by the thread,i bury the thread in that slit,no need to cut KM the thread will be below it,the thread on the other end of the holdfast i bury in the welt groove.
Al,
Thanks for all that info, i think i am fully fortified now,i am looking forward to shake your hand next month.
Regards Nasser
Thanks to you for bringing this very important topic up and others that willingly told us about their methods.
I do cut a slit(small cut on an angle) on the inside of the insole feather edge(holdfast)at M (fig 245) and lift it up,my awl inters at L a little below the surface of the insole instead of starting from the top surface which is weaker in substance and might be draged by the thread,i bury the thread in that slit,no need to cut KM the thread will be below it,the thread on the other end of the holdfast i bury in the welt groove.
Al,
Thanks for all that info, i think i am fully fortified now,i am looking forward to shake your hand next month.
Regards Nasser
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paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
DW,
Could you please expond upon the silhouette consturction of that beautiful pair of oxfords you just made for Randee? I've seen shoes made like that, years and years ago. I've always been alittle curious about it.
TIA,
Paul
Could you please expond upon the silhouette consturction of that beautiful pair of oxfords you just made for Randee? I've seen shoes made like that, years and years ago. I've always been alittle curious about it.
TIA,
Paul
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ch_rasmussen
Re: Insoles and inseaming
DW,
Another question about the beautiful oxfords that you made for your wife... you mentioned that the seams are antiqued. What does this mean?
Thanks, Craig
Another question about the beautiful oxfords that you made for your wife... you mentioned that the seams are antiqued. What does this mean?
Thanks, Craig
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Paul,
The silhouette technique (as I interpret it) is simply a welted shoe that is inseamed but not outseamed. The difference is that I cut the feather pretty wide maybe 3/8"+ from the edge of the insole to the feather side of the holdfast. The corresponding welt is then pretty wide but it still has to be trimmed up so that it is essentially no wider than the insole plus the thickness of the vamp and vamp lining, etc., when the outsole is added and trimmed.
The rest is a cement sole construction that relies on the welt around the perimeter of the shoe. I'm not sanguine about it for anything but women's dress shoes...and as much as I'd like to move away from it, it relies on all-purpose cement. But it was what the "customer" wanted (and this customer really is always right
)
I don't have a photo of the insole before lasting (I should have...I meant to take one) but here's a photo of the shoe just after inseaming.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
The silhouette technique (as I interpret it) is simply a welted shoe that is inseamed but not outseamed. The difference is that I cut the feather pretty wide maybe 3/8"+ from the edge of the insole to the feather side of the holdfast. The corresponding welt is then pretty wide but it still has to be trimmed up so that it is essentially no wider than the insole plus the thickness of the vamp and vamp lining, etc., when the outsole is added and trimmed.
The rest is a cement sole construction that relies on the welt around the perimeter of the shoe. I'm not sanguine about it for anything but women's dress shoes...and as much as I'd like to move away from it, it relies on all-purpose cement. But it was what the "customer" wanted (and this customer really is always right
) I don't have a photo of the insole before lasting (I should have...I meant to take one) but here's a photo of the shoe just after inseaming.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Craig,
When I mentioned that the seams were antiqued I was referring to a darkening of the leather over the gimping and broguing. The antiquing colours the edges of the perfs and the gimping and makes it stand out from, and contrast more starkly with, the surrounding leather. Inevitably antiquing of the seams also means some stain on the leather adjacent to the seam...but this only seems to enhance the overall effect if it is handled in a careful way.
Prime Leather Finishes manufactures an antiquing cream in many different colours. On these shoes, I started out with a neutral antique (to buffer the effects of the darker antique) and then went on to a dark green antiquing.
This is especially effective and a "final," professional touch if you have glue or cement down in your perfs. (I didn't because I use a double-sided cement tape which I brogue right through, but any discolouration can be masked with this technique.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
When I mentioned that the seams were antiqued I was referring to a darkening of the leather over the gimping and broguing. The antiquing colours the edges of the perfs and the gimping and makes it stand out from, and contrast more starkly with, the surrounding leather. Inevitably antiquing of the seams also means some stain on the leather adjacent to the seam...but this only seems to enhance the overall effect if it is handled in a careful way.
Prime Leather Finishes manufactures an antiquing cream in many different colours. On these shoes, I started out with a neutral antique (to buffer the effects of the darker antique) and then went on to a dark green antiquing.
This is especially effective and a "final," professional touch if you have glue or cement down in your perfs. (I didn't because I use a double-sided cement tape which I brogue right through, but any discolouration can be masked with this technique.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
DW,
That's what I thought I had observed in the past regarding the silhouette style, without know what it was called.
Beside pleasing this particular customer, very important, what other benifits could there be to this method? That's what I can't figure.
Paul
That's what I thought I had observed in the past regarding the silhouette style, without know what it was called.
Beside pleasing this particular customer, very important, what other benifits could there be to this method? That's what I can't figure.
Paul
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Paul,
I can't really think of many real reasons to use it.
OTOH, I have seen outseamed women's shoes (hand sewn of course), on which I am assuming the basic approach was very like a silhouette. The welt was trimmed nearly as close, and the outseam itself was set well back under the feather of the insole. That would seem to me the best solution of all.
But to be fair, the one thing silhouette construction has going for it is that the sole can probably be replaced more easily and with less incidental damage than with a straight cement sole construction. For that matter there is probably less damage done to the shoe during preparation to mount the outsole than with cement sole construction.
On this pair of shoes I used a piece of Belgium Chestnut Tanned soling split to about 7 iron, I would guess, and the waist was then further thinned to about 3 or four iron. The welt in the waist was also thinned so that the whole waist area could be rounded and burnished with a waist iron and not appear much thicker than 3/16"-1/8" overall.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
I can't really think of many real reasons to use it.
OTOH, I have seen outseamed women's shoes (hand sewn of course), on which I am assuming the basic approach was very like a silhouette. The welt was trimmed nearly as close, and the outseam itself was set well back under the feather of the insole. That would seem to me the best solution of all.
But to be fair, the one thing silhouette construction has going for it is that the sole can probably be replaced more easily and with less incidental damage than with a straight cement sole construction. For that matter there is probably less damage done to the shoe during preparation to mount the outsole than with cement sole construction.
On this pair of shoes I used a piece of Belgium Chestnut Tanned soling split to about 7 iron, I would guess, and the waist was then further thinned to about 3 or four iron. The welt in the waist was also thinned so that the whole waist area could be rounded and burnished with a waist iron and not appear much thicker than 3/16"-1/8" overall.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Wow! That's a very thin profile.
I'll bet it's very flexible also and light weight.
I did a pair of 10" Roo's for an elderly lady some months ago, and split the same Belgian sole leather to about 7 iron. They were really a good choice for her delicate feet. Almost no break in time. And I don't thing they weighed more than 2.5 lbs.
But I haven't tried splitting my welt for a job like that yet. Obviously you had to reduce the size of your thread and taw when working with an insole and welt so thin. What was that like for you?
And I can't even imaging sticking such a delicate shoe like that up into an outsole stitcher. Hand stitching would be the only thing that would make sence.
I'd sure like to look at the shoes up close. I bet they're beautiful.
Paul
I'll bet it's very flexible also and light weight.
I did a pair of 10" Roo's for an elderly lady some months ago, and split the same Belgian sole leather to about 7 iron. They were really a good choice for her delicate feet. Almost no break in time. And I don't thing they weighed more than 2.5 lbs.
But I haven't tried splitting my welt for a job like that yet. Obviously you had to reduce the size of your thread and taw when working with an insole and welt so thin. What was that like for you?
And I can't even imaging sticking such a delicate shoe like that up into an outsole stitcher. Hand stitching would be the only thing that would make sence.
I'd sure like to look at the shoes up close. I bet they're beautiful.
Paul
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
But I haven't tried splitting my welt for a job like that yet. Obviously you had to reduce the size of your thread and taw when working with an insole and welt so thin. What was that like for you?
No, it wasn't like that. You start with regular welting but when the outsole is mounted (and before you outseam) you use a welt knife to thin the welt from the grain side. Sometimes you can and will refine the edge even further...after outseaming and during the final trim/finishing sequence.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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paul
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
the grain side? I'll be darned!
I guess strength is less of an issue in the shank area, huh?
While looking at your picture I thought, maybe the welt was thinned from the flesh side at the point you have it as pictured.
But you're saying the welt is trimmed at this point on the grainside.
I'll be a blue nosed gofer!
Paul
I guess strength is less of an issue in the shank area, huh?
While looking at your picture I thought, maybe the welt was thinned from the flesh side at the point you have it as pictured.
But you're saying the welt is trimmed at this point on the grainside.
I'll be a blue nosed gofer!
Paul
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dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Paul,
Aye. But remember that it is a taper not a split. With the inseam a good 3/8" inward from the edge of the outsole, the welt knife doesn't have to take much off the top of the welt nor cut very wide to thin the edge down to meet the outsole. It's not as steep as a 45 degree angle...probably more like 30 degrees...but the outsole, while thinned from the flesh side, is also tapered from the grainside to meet the edge of the welt. Together they create a pretty refined edge in the waist.
The same process with some modification is how I do fiddleback waists on outseamed men's shoes. Again the feather is cut deeper than it is in the forepart and when the outsole is mounted (thinned substantially in the waist) the welt is tapered from the grainside...maybe a bit less initially so that the welt may be sewn to the outsole in the waist. This work is done deep and at about 4-5 to the inch. Then the final trim is given tot he welt and outsole and again both the welt and insole are tapered to meet each other. All the tapering on the welt is done from the stitching to the edge. And that's why I mention men's shoes because it's really the same process with the same tool on the silhouette. If you can envision tapering the welt from the stitches to the edge, you've got the general idea.
In both cases, the outsole is beaten and rubbed to fit close to the vamp...and in the case of men's work the stitches are totally hidden. In fact, when I get it right, it's almost as clean and tight to the vamp in the waist as on a pair of cowboy boots where no welt is present at all.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Aye. But remember that it is a taper not a split. With the inseam a good 3/8" inward from the edge of the outsole, the welt knife doesn't have to take much off the top of the welt nor cut very wide to thin the edge down to meet the outsole. It's not as steep as a 45 degree angle...probably more like 30 degrees...but the outsole, while thinned from the flesh side, is also tapered from the grainside to meet the edge of the welt. Together they create a pretty refined edge in the waist.
The same process with some modification is how I do fiddleback waists on outseamed men's shoes. Again the feather is cut deeper than it is in the forepart and when the outsole is mounted (thinned substantially in the waist) the welt is tapered from the grainside...maybe a bit less initially so that the welt may be sewn to the outsole in the waist. This work is done deep and at about 4-5 to the inch. Then the final trim is given tot he welt and outsole and again both the welt and insole are tapered to meet each other. All the tapering on the welt is done from the stitching to the edge. And that's why I mention men's shoes because it's really the same process with the same tool on the silhouette. If you can envision tapering the welt from the stitches to the edge, you've got the general idea.
In both cases, the outsole is beaten and rubbed to fit close to the vamp...and in the case of men's work the stitches are totally hidden. In fact, when I get it right, it's almost as clean and tight to the vamp in the waist as on a pair of cowboy boots where no welt is present at all.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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courtney
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Could anyone explain how to make welting? I know its supposed to have a 45 degree bevel, does that go all the way like this \ or just the edge like edging a belt?
Also do you skive it to level it after stitching or just fill the cavity? If i have a 3/16" insole with a 1/16" feather with 1/8 to 3/16 welt on top of the uppers that stands up pretty high, is that how its supposed to be?
Any help much appreciated!
Courtney
Also do you skive it to level it after stitching or just fill the cavity? If i have a 3/16" insole with a 1/16" feather with 1/8 to 3/16 welt on top of the uppers that stands up pretty high, is that how its supposed to be?
Any help much appreciated!
Courtney
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Courtney,
Welt is cut anywhere from 3/8" wide to 5/8" wide. It is usually cut from belly and about an eighth inch thick...all depending on personal preference and application.
One way to proceed from there is to cut a groove a little less than one third the depth on the flesh side, about, or a little less than, an eighth inch from the edge.
Then turn the welt over and using a narrow French skive cut an even 45° bevel off the same edge as the groove but from the grain side.
All this is made easier and perhaps more controllable if the welt strip is wet and tempered previously.
When inseaming is complete the edge of the welt that is up against the vamp may be leveled somewhat...and sometimes this will entail removing a thin slice of vamp and vamp lining along with it.
And/or the forepart (and shank) cavity may be filled to bring it up to level.
That's the way I do it...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Welt is cut anywhere from 3/8" wide to 5/8" wide. It is usually cut from belly and about an eighth inch thick...all depending on personal preference and application.
One way to proceed from there is to cut a groove a little less than one third the depth on the flesh side, about, or a little less than, an eighth inch from the edge.
Then turn the welt over and using a narrow French skive cut an even 45° bevel off the same edge as the groove but from the grain side.
All this is made easier and perhaps more controllable if the welt strip is wet and tempered previously.
When inseaming is complete the edge of the welt that is up against the vamp may be leveled somewhat...and sometimes this will entail removing a thin slice of vamp and vamp lining along with it.
And/or the forepart (and shank) cavity may be filled to bring it up to level.
That's the way I do it...
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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courtney
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Thanks D.W., but does the bevel go all the way or just on one edge?
Thanks,
Courtney
Thanks,
Courtney
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lancepryor
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Courtney:
FWIW, my welting is usually 5/8 to 3/4 wide. I am now using Baker's welting strips, which yield two welts about 3/4" wide. I can't imagine using a 3/8" wide welting strip on shoes where I'm welting the waist.
The skive is usually to about 1/2 of the welt's thickness, and about 1/8" to 3/16" wide, so no it does not go the entire width of the welt -- more like 1/4 to 1/6th of the width. As DW noted, make sure the skive is from the grain side, since this side will be snugging up against the holdfast/feather, and the skive helps reduce bulk and allows the welt to really cinch the upper into place.
Lance
FWIW, my welting is usually 5/8 to 3/4 wide. I am now using Baker's welting strips, which yield two welts about 3/4" wide. I can't imagine using a 3/8" wide welting strip on shoes where I'm welting the waist.
The skive is usually to about 1/2 of the welt's thickness, and about 1/8" to 3/16" wide, so no it does not go the entire width of the welt -- more like 1/4 to 1/6th of the width. As DW noted, make sure the skive is from the grain side, since this side will be snugging up against the holdfast/feather, and the skive helps reduce bulk and allows the welt to really cinch the upper into place.
Lance
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
Lance is spot on...as usual, it seems 
The skive is very steep and less than an eighth inch wide as viewed from the grain surface.
Parenthetically, in an ideal world, the awl is supposed to enter the grain surface of the welt just at the margin between full grain and the skive. And from there, of course, emerge in the groove on the flesh side.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
The skive is very steep and less than an eighth inch wide as viewed from the grain surface.
Parenthetically, in an ideal world, the awl is supposed to enter the grain surface of the welt just at the margin between full grain and the skive. And from there, of course, emerge in the groove on the flesh side.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
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dw
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Re: Insoles and inseaming
PS...you can buy commercially made welting (try the local shoe repair shop for a short section) that will provide you with a reasonable representation of what welting should look like. (Or perhaps I should say this particular form of welting.) Once you see it, it will all become clear.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member