The Crispin Colloquy

Over the years, my fitters have become increasingly elaborate. Along with using the opportunity to test the upper pattern design, I also like to have toe puffs and heel counters. I don't feel that I get an accurate sense of the fit without the the counters.

This usually means I have to have a liner in the fitters to put the counters between the liner and outer. This adds a lot of work to the fitter.

Here I report that I have a good result using celastic to make quick counters. Shown below I made my fitter uppers with the flesh side out. This allows the slippery grain side to act as a liner and give the celastic a rough surface to stick to on the outside. I am using the heat activated celastic.

You may note that there is stitching along the top edge of the heel counter. I did this just to see if my post bed could get in there but I didn't really need it. The celastic adhered nicely by itself.

I have used leather as exterior counters previously but it never works very well for me. It's difficult to get the leather to stretch nicely in this context whereas the celastic is very stretchy.

Hello Rick,

Can you tell me where you are buying the celastic from?

Geri

Georgene has it at http://www.shoedo.com/shoemakingsupplies.html

Rick,

Can you tell from the description if this is similar to either of the two products described at

http://www.frankfordleather.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=fl &Category_Code=stiffeners

Terry

Rick,

I have worked with both of these products on frankford leather and was interested in how the one you posted might compare.

Terry

I'd like to make field/riding style boot. It was very helpful to read Angel Barcelo and Al's comments in previous archives. Here I still have some unresolved question:
1. higher instep. Would it only turn up about one in. or so below the ankle joint? My thought is that the lower part need to be tight to hold the foot and loose on top to let the foot in.
2. I see most of them have ankle high counter. Would that rub on ankle bones and cause loose heel fit?
3. Does the tongue serve any function?
4. I would like to do round closing. Do I need to start with 8/9 oz because the crimping will make the joint area much thinner. I tried round closing with the 5/6 oz, but I'm not sure I can do it with thinner leather.
5. Shape the leg before closing?
Any comments would be appreciated.
Joe

Joe,

Just to be sure I understand, you want to make 1) a field boot [riding boot with a laced opening at instep], and a 2) a riding boot [no opening]? The cutting patterns are different, and each is treated differently. English riding boots are designed only for being on horseback--not walking--and imparting a certain posture and look to the rider's legs for "dressage" [looking good in competition].

Lasts for any closed boot tend to have a high instep "cone" to influence/control girth/fit, support, and shape the vamp, which in this case extends upward much higher than a shoe vamp. A well fitting shoe last can successfully be adapted by building-up, extending the instep, added fittings to thicken and raise the "island" of the last, and to straighten-up the back curve too if it's too curved. Not sure I understood you, "turn up about one inch or so below the ankle joint"--where the tongue "breaks" or bends depends on your pattern-making, just be sure there's some last "cone" under it so it's not floating in the air when lasted.

With any closed pull-on boot one of the most critical dimensions is the "heel measure" (long- and/or short-heel), going diagonally round the foot from the heel up and over the instep. This girth grips the foot and holds it firmly in the boot. In a field boot the adjusting lacing at the front allows a little latitude here, but in a closed front riding boot this dimension has to be spot on--too snug, it can be eased out. Too loose, there is no remedy.

Nothing's "loose" per se, but the boot leg must be patterned and cut to admit the foot to pass through it. As a general rule you want the leg, especially at the ankle (narrowest point), to be as small/tight as possible and yet still push the foot through. This depends on the leathers you use [supple, stretchy, vs. tight, hard and non-stretchy], how much the customer can point their foot when pulling the boots on, and how much of a struggle they want to get their boots on/off, plus a few other variables. A tight boot leg will ease looser with wear, or can stretched-out a little--a loose boot leg is an incurable subject.

English riding boots tend to have high counters, yes. This are intended to protect your ankle bones from injury, especially in polo boots. Heel-slipping is only an issue if you walk in them, and they are wholly unsuited to walking in--not designed for it from the last onward. Some field boots, especially early 20thc ones designed for military officers compromised, and were made to both wear on horseback and in foot

In a field boot, the tongue is thin leather inserted and stitched-in behind the instep opening for the laces, it's purpose is to prevent debris entering the boot through the laced opening. In a riding boot the vamp tongue extending up the boot leg by an inch or so makes a stronger, nicer, join between the vamp and boot leg--that's it's purpose and it is necessary.

Crimping should in no way affect the thickness, or thin your leather. All it does is bend it up into a right angle. Round-closing [or "split and left" inside] by hand was the traditional method of making a ridging boot tongue, but no need to go 8/9oz thickness of leather--that's way too thick IMO. In fact 5-6oz. is just about right for "heavy" work.

I like to close my uppers and boot legs and put them on the trees just to smooth seams, straighten and set the shape a little before I last them. During the making the legs will get folded over out of the way and rumpled, but I find they drop onto the lasts easier if treed briefly before lasting--then treed again for the final time after the boot's finished to set their shape and size.

If you intend to make boot that one can walk in, do not rigidly copy English field or riding boots in all details, as neither is really a "walking boot". If you want to, think of making a walking boot in the style or, inspired by the cut of the former instead.

Hope this helped.

This boot is a compromise between riding and walking. This was authorized wear for U.S. army officers from 1904 thru 1945

Al, Tom,
Thanks a lot.
Is side seam area get stretched alot when crimping?
Joe

I do not understand what you mean. The type of boot mentioned does not have a side seam. Also it is possible to build a riding boot/field boot with out crimping the vamp at all.

Tom,
For three-piece top, most common on this style, there's side seam between vamp and quarter. In Archive 176-200, there's a side seam in your boot. Forgive me, if that's not the right term to use.
All my observation is from picture, no personal access to actual boot. I made a whole cut for the foot part. Jane's boot has two layers quarter. I'm still evaluating which configuration would work for me.
I did an experiment to back seam the leg part with round closing on 4oz leather. Not pretty, but it hold up. (God, pls. grant me patience, but hurry up!)
Thanks.
Joe

Sorry for the misunderstanding. the side seam should not be affected by crimping since if you crimp the vamp you will need to put extra material on the blocker and trim to the pattern after it drys.

Tom,
Thanks.

Is it advisable to do one-piece leg for the field boot which extends down to the instep like derby? I know it's a lot crimping, especially for someone like me without the crimping board and screw. Also, I'm wondering how to orient the leather. It needs to stretch both directions.

Joe

Joe,

If i understand this correctly, you hardly need any crimping for the field boots,the vamp is cut low enough to be lasted without crimping,in my picture the height of the vamp is where i marked with white pen,near the second hole of the facings and from there it is sewn to the folding tongue,if you put a toe piece to the vamp that will make it easier for lasting,if you are using a very heavy leather for the vamp,wet it and "string" it until dry.

Nasser,
What about the leg? It has a curve from just above the ankle down to the instep.
Joe

Is "stringing" a vamp another form of crimping?
please explain.

Nice boot... BTW.

Thx,
-Nat

I am not sure if you are referring to the separate facings pieces sewn to the leg and the piece in front of the heel counter,it is a design dictate to produce a one piece top/leg as low as the counter line. I hope that addressed your question.

Nasser

Nat,

Yes it is and it is done by folding the vamp in half and using a heavy thread/leather thong in the fold to shape the vamp curve. look up "ART OF THE SHOEMAKER", page 256 for more.

Nasser

Here is the full quote from the book and and i highly recommend it for all boot/shoe makers,i understand these are hard times,Here is D.A. SAGUTO ON "STRINGING".

"stringing-to fold the boot vamp in half while wet; tack its lower edge at the lasting margin to a board in several places;thread a heavy string or leather thong through the fold,secured by a tack at the toe end;then,using the free end of this string pull up and force the tongue of the boot vamp into approximately a right angle bending upwards toward the shin,where it would than be let into the notch at the front of the bootleg during closing.Traditionally, this operation was often loosely described by the catchall term bracing."

(Message edited by dearbone on October 06, 2011)

Nasser,

Thanks for the "plug".

Yes, "bracing" (AKA "stringing" in 19thc books) is as described above. It's works a charm on English riding boots with small, narrow, low tongues, and gets the tongue up to nearly a right angle. The secret is to do a bit of judicious hammering as you tug the cord (pulling the tongue up), tapping right at the juncture of the tongue and vamp-wing--NOT NEAR THE CRIMP POINT, out near the cut edge. You know, right where the leather usually wants to tear. The leather being soaked first, a bit of steady tapping spreads it, eases it, increases the surface area. If you tap even once on the fold near the crimp point, you'll get the reverse effect, and it will become too large there. Think of it like rolling out stiff dough. And leave it to dry a day or more, or move the vamp immediately to your boards to dry completely. Veg leather with retain the set. Chrome will not set as well..

This description of stringing reminded me of a thought I had awhile back. I don't have screws for my crimp boards, so I've been pulling the leather over the board and tacking into place which is a frustrating process.
Maybe this "rope-crimper" is a loonie idea, but I wonder how well it would work...
Hang a drooping rope from the celing, fold the vamp over it and attach a weight at the bottom to pull the vamp into shape:



(Message edited by Kemosabi on October 06, 2011)

Al,

I was warned, There will be a test on the book,so i have been reading the Art of the shoemaker at night with a miner lamp, There are many jewels in it in the fine print. Thanks for the extra tip on stringing/hammering.

Regards
Nasser

Nat,

I had a laugh at your drawing, yes same idea, except the weight will be your fingers power puling,before you string,draw by pen on the board the shape of the vamp from the standard/mean form which is true curve of the last and follow this curve to shape the curve of the folded vamp.

Being ever the old history-weenie around here, I heartily suggest you try the old way first, then try to improve on the past when necessary.

I use exclusively veg-tanned leathers, for making repro historical boots, and the "bracing/stringing" crimping works well--not so great on chrome leather I've tried. For the hammering, try using a cast iron closers' hammer/paste-fitter's-hammer rather than a honkering shoe hammer--again you're just trying to compress and spread, not bruise, the soggy leather a bit right where it wants to usually tear or rip to ease it, allowing the tongue to continue pulling up as far as poss. If it cooperates I can sometime over-crimp them, and pull the tongues up smooth and flat beyond a 45 degree angle, so once dry and off the board (backing board I'm bracing them on, not a crimping board) the tongues relax back to a 45.

I've tried leather thong for this, but it invariably snaps! Try a stout cord, nylon if you're not a purist, but I find it too stretchy. Secure the toe-end of the cord really well. The tongue-end of the cord you can pull on harder with lasting pincers, or wrapping it around a stick. Once the tongue is crimped as far as it's gonna go without curling up at the corners, likewise secure the tongue-end of the cord to securely-driven tacks, then pull the boot tongue's top corners backward a bit and tack it all flat to the backing board to dry.

If we can scrounge the necessary kit, maybe I'll demo this at DW's to be enshrined on video--I think I can probably still sneak some cord and leather on an airplane

Nasser,

I apologize for the "fine print"--end notes were my editor's idea, not mine. I originally had all those pearls of wisdom laid-out on a right-hand facing page--translation on the left page, annotations on the right. But they wouldn't all fit sadly. One of these days I might look at writing 'Making Shoes with M. de Garsault' more of an informal step-by-step how-to companion work to explain all these niggly details.

Al,

I for one am grateful for your efforts for putting this book out,reading with miner lamp is due to dim light and eyes not as good as they used to be.

Nasser