The Crispin Colloquy

John Lewis, Alan Zerobnick of ShoeSchool just told me about Murphy Co. knives & I purchased a curved lip knife from them that is quite nice (to my relatively inexperienced eye). At any rate, I find it comfortable in my hand, and generally Alan doesn't steer one wrong about knives.

oooh memories
Murphy Knife was the first place I went when I had my drivers license and could finally go where ever I wanted. I am a local gal so it wasn't far. Of course they didn't want me - a retail customer - but I made a nuisance of myself anyway and looked at all their stuff ... so I could buy it elsewhere. Good product, good people - and tolerant of my ..."enthusiasm "
Sylvia
(Brown, Petersham Leathers)

I have a question about conditioning a ~100 year old leather belt~ 3/16 " thick.
I searched back to a thread of 1/10/08 archive 376-400 discussion between Erick Wilcox and D.A. Saguto re. curried leather. Should I use Veterinarian's grade cod-liver oil and paint it on dry? A Foxfire book said tanned hides had to be dry before they would absorb oil but DA Saguto said to wet the leather. This leather is pretty thick. Do you mix the tallow & oil, or put oil first & then coat with tallow? Do I need to add lanolin (degras) too and where can I get the right kind? Can someone tell me what the oxidation process is and whether I need to wait 1 month before using tallow? Should I make my own tallow or buy "Fancy Tallow Oil" from JR Baits & Lures. A Pecard's advertisement claimed their product is better than tallow which they claim will damage leather, and that museums use Pecard's but I am concerned it might be worse long-term. Should I use beeswax too? I also saw a DFWII reference to "waxed calf made by "stuffing" hot oils (whale oil was preferred although some cod oil was used)and greases such as lanolin into the flesh side of a vegetable tanned leather. This leather was then allowed to sit in a warm place...perhaps an attic...for up to a year before it was ever used." And Alasdair Muckart said sheep fat makes best tallow? My apologies for all the questions, but I suspect the answer is pretty simple and straight-forward and I'm making this complicated.

Sharon,

"When in doubt, leave it alone" is the time-honored advice. Without seeing or handling the antique it's impossible to judge its condition, best treatment, etc. Our previous discussions about curried leather pertained to new material, degraded antique leather is a whole nuther animal. While your belt my benefit from some treatment, it cannot be made new again to where you could wear it safely. Might be better to have someone make you a reproduction of it.

I may get hit by lightening for saying this, but Pecard's (or any commercial product), is not a one size fits all treatment for antique leather, and many collectors avoid old leather that's been treated with Pecard's, be warned.

Leaving it alone is not an option at this time. May I ask what someone would have used 100 years ago to condition old stiffened somewhat thick leather? There are no cracks or rot, and I do need to use it for the time being.

Sharon,

Is it tooled leather? Does it have stitching all over? What fiber is the thread? Metal fittings? What metals/alloys? Some brand name concoctions are lard-based, highly acidic, etc., and will destroy the thread (cotton or linen), or corrode the metal, copper alloys like brass will spew green verdigris (highly toxic!).

Being conservative--this is an antique after all--it probably won't hurt it to spray it down with water in a spray bottle, and gingerly (do not overdo it) wipe the grain side down with some drug store cod liver oil on a very soft cotton rag and leave it to soak in over night, wipe off any excess. Wetting it a little first opens the leather's pores and allows the oil to penetrate deeper as the water evaporates, leaving little if any surface evidence of the oil. You might end up with a belt a shade darker than before, but the leather should be happier. You cannot make it "new" again, or reverse 100 years of aging, and in wear it will not hold up as well as new leather

I have a question about stiffener in the heel area of a pair of Mary Jane shoes I'm making. Some books say that because of the two layers of leather around the heel area (which is the style that I'm making) that there is no need for stiffener. I'm using French Calf for the shoes and it feels pretty soft to form the heel without something else been added. Any help or ideas would be of much help. Thanks.

Mike

Always use a stiffener, if you don't there is a tendency to walk over the inside of the heel of the shoe.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

It has been suggested to me that when working with stretchier leathers, it can be helpful to laminate them with muslin, using rubber cement.
I am wondering how to handle the edges that are enclosed in folding or seams. Should I cut away the muslin in the fold/seam to eliminate bulk? If so, is this better done before or after lamination? Is the added structure important AT the seam, so I should cut it away after stitching?
Skiving through cotton seems difficult, but so does accurately laying down a cement covered piece of muslin, so I am at a loss.
Perhaps it is wise to avoid non-firm leathers as a matter of policy? Any thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks!

Holly,

In using flimsy stretchy leathers (I assume for linings), the best solution is to soak the leather in lukewarm water and stretch on a board bigger than the size of the piece you are stretching. This will give you quite a few more square inches and make the leather much more compliant towards any skiving which needs done. Stretch with the flesh side against the board. It will impart a good temporary stiffness to your leather.

Cheers,

JesseLee

Jesse,
That sounds like a great technique for working with linings.
But I am actually referring to ladies upper sections, for knee high jodhpurs. The leather I'm working with is borderline OK. It certainly isn't flimsy, but has a bit more give in some directions than I'd like, particularly in the spots I couldn't avoid cutting nearer the edge of the hide than I would have liked.
The muslin trick was told to me a couple of years ago, by an Armenian shoemaker, as a means to control thin leathers. I thought it was a fairly common practice, but perhaps I am wrong, as I've found no mention elsewhere on the forum.
Thanks.

Holly,

Its the same for upper leather. What this technique does is take excess stretch out of the leather so cuts and skives don't get lumpy.
I know of the muslin technique which was used in 19th century cowboy boots betwixt lining and upper. It accepted the wheat paste better, but I doubt it would be strong enough to withstand skiving.

Cheers,

JesseLee

I look forward to trying this!
Thanks.

Let me know how it works or if you have further questions.

Cheers,

JesseLee

What is the top quality wax/polish used on calf mens dress shoes to impart that deep luster.

Cheers,

JesseLee

Jesse,

Saphir, in my opinion.

Alexander

I've hesitated for a month to ask because the answer always seems to be "experiment, do this for a million years, maybe you'll understand after a thousand more pairs", but I'm really hoping for something concrete so I have a place to start.

A couple of times now I have made some sandals and the part that goes around my heel hurts at the bottom of my heel after I walk around in them for a while. I can't figure out if it's pinching or forming a lump that I'm walking on or what.

The type of sandal is commonly referred to as a two or four-tab sandal if you can't picture what this heel part is I'm speaking of.

Do you have any advice for what I am doing wrong? I have made some really nice sandals and if it wasn't for that pain in my heel, I'd feel like I was in heaven wearing them.

Diane,

Can you post a picture of the sandal and your heel? That would help so everyone can see what is going on.

Paul

I will try. I'm never sure this is going to work.

I wondered if the leather was just too thin, but I made another pair that was a lot thicker and had the same trouble. I've made other shoes and sandals with the same heel shape and none of them hurt.

Please forgive my terrible craftsmanship. I have only hand tools and am not a professional shoemaker.

Diane

I can't tell for sure from the picture. Is your footbed flat? If you make a cup for your heel it should be much more comfortable.

Don

It almost looks as if the back of the heel leather might be pinching, or undercutting your foot; maybe the insole is a little bit short, or the stitching is making the fit too tight?

Don't apologize for either your tools or your craftsmanship - you're making sturdy wearable footwear! I'm still a beginner too, and learning as I go. Others here know volumes more than I ever will, but my first guess would be that the back of the sandal,at the bottom, looks like it is pulling in around the seam, so you may be walking on the seam there, not on the insole?

What do the rest of you think?

I guess I'm walking on the seam. But how do I prevent it? And can I fix it? It's a sandal so I can move my foot forward but eventually I settle back in.

The sandal is totally flat. I don't know how to do any kind of shaping of the footbed.

Diane,

I made sandals that had the same problem and got around it by cutting out around the heel to make an arch shaped heel strap. Like this example that is the result of a bunch of trial and error to replace a friends old ones.


My thought is that your strap over the front of your ankle is pulling your foot back tight and working it's way over the seam as the leather stretches. You could go with a stiff counter in there and all that, but working by hand, maybe a pattern change would be easier. Then move the back piece forward to where it holds your foot on the foot bed.

Anyway, those sandals look great. Keep up the good work.

Paul

Hey Diane,

Paul's right. I have a pair of 'desert' boots that were made in Portugal and they do that to my heel as well. what's happening is the heel stiffener ins't strong enough, my heel has collapsed the back of the boot onto itself forming a ridge just as your's is doing.
In my case it's probably also a fit issue in that to get the boots to fit width wise I had to get them longer.

More power to y'awl.
Tom

Thank you so much. I think it is the stretchy, soft thin leather. Perhaps I can add a little stiffener inside. All the other shoes I've made with the same shape heel piece haven't had this problem because I added something to stiffen it up. Thank you for the encouragement.