miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#226 Post by relferink »

Admin,
Thanks for having me here. Hope to be able to share as much as I may learn.

Chris

I haven't heard of "Sahva" before. Am I right it's like the governing body of the health care system? As everywhere the health care costs have skyrocketed and now more than ever before the pressure is on to make shoes cheaper as long as they last 18 or so months. Do remember that before in the Netherlands customers could get their shoes replaced every 12 months. And I have heard of program's that have a benefit every 6 months.

Just as important is the organization of orthopedic shoemakers that deals with the health insurance on a national level. This is the way it used to by. I believe that currently they are no longer allowed to negotiate for national contracts and individual shops have to compete. But back when I left Europe, some 10 years ago contracts were still negotiated on a national level. In order to justify the relative high prices they had to show investments in the future of the branch with a result on of the best training programs anywhere. They got away with it because there was a fear that if you have the orthopedic shoemakers compete and a lot of them would go down (remember their crafts people not administrators or negotiators so they don't stand much of a chance against some big shot insurance company negotiator) and the "art" would be lost. The situation now has changed like night and day. I still have family in the business in the Netherlands and hear some things about if every now and than. The pressure is on now to produce cheaper and have the shoes last longer. The results in innovations and education will not be noticed till much later when a good part of the current establishment retires and the art will be lost.

I have to say that there are some good orthopedic shoe makers here in the US, even if you don't count me in.Image but they are to the best of my knowledge not organized and it's much of an individual undertaking. There is the PFA that keeps itself occupied with orthopedic shoes but I haven't met anybody there that can come close to the average European orthopedic shoemaker. In fact to pass their certification the only things you need to know about shoes is book knowledge. No hands on and as all that make shoes and boots should remember from when they started in the business just book knowledge doesn't cut it.

As for the schooling of cobblers here, I have no idea. I have seen a subject group on the board dealing with schools so you may want to post a question there. The interesting thing is that here in New England I do not know any cobblers that have been formally educated in the US. I know "the old guys" the emigrants that came over as cobblers or learned only from their father and are ready to retire now. And than there is this one who was a doctor, he got himself into a midlife crisis but in stead of dumping his wife for a 20yo and buying a sports car he gave up his practice and bought a cobbler shop. He is all self thought with the help from some other cobblers and he's loving is. Frankly he has gotten quite good at it but it must have been a steep learning curve.

Let me finish by giving my 2 cents worth on the wet/dry lasting debate. I don't make western style boots as of now, the only boots are orthopedic lace up style. I only dry last. I find that chrome leather gets hard and sometimes almost brittle by the time they dry and I am afraid of stains. Sure part of this is the quality of the leather but I rather not take the chance. The way I select leathers for my customer has more to do with their orthopedic footwear needs than durability. Not that I want my shoes to fall apart in no time but I can't give an older lady with arthritis a heavy boot leather. The only times I am tempted to wet last is with a bad fitting upper and I keep finding out that it's cheaper and easier to just throw that upper in the trash and start with a new set op patterns. I have not seen many orthopedic shoemakers wet last. I think part of the reason is the softness of the leathers is often critical to a functional shoe and wet lasting seems to take some of that away. I also have to admit I don't use leather counter or toe boxes anymore and to apply my man made counter in a wet upper would be much harder than dry lasting.
I have seen orthopedic shops order special "moist chambers" where a high humidity and temperature is maintained. The uppers are hang in there for a couple of hours before lasting. It seems the ones that need this most are the ones with questionable patterns. I'm NOT saying that everybody that wet lasts can't make patterns I'm just saying in the orthopedic shoe business it is not common practice in spite of sometimes really freaky looking lasts.
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#227 Post by dw »

Joe,

I've heard that and I think it's a good point. But I'm a little sceptical...

No disrespect intended, but the only way I would completely accept the distilled water theory is if you told me that you had made boots (the whole boot) of benedictine coloured calf and had just soaked the lower half...and still not gotten a water stain. Oh, I know and accept that distilled water is "better" than tap or even ground water--less minerals--but water stains are as much a result of water dissolving chemicals and minerals *in* the leather itself and them depositing those agents at the interface between the wet and the dry leathers (like the detritus that a wave leaves on the strand as it ebbs), as they are a result of resident chemicals in the water itself.

Now if you were to tell me that you had partially soaked light coloured leathers with distilled water...time and again...and never had any water stains, I would be inclined to try out distilled water, even though it is a cost that is hard to justify. And if you told me that distilled water would, absolutely, guaranteed, prevent cracking of toes or loss of lightly applied aniline finishes...why, I'd go out and buy a case! Image

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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#228 Post by dw »

Robert,

Again, I'm a bootmaker...but so far I've heard a few theories, such as you, yourself propose, that suggest that wetting the leather makes it hard or more brittle. This simply does not square with either my own, my teacher's and the "old guys" experiences. Nor does it square with, as Al has suggested, the subsequent wetting and drying that will occur during wear. Of course, water will remove some softening agents, will remove some natural oils and conditioners, but replacing those oils is as much a part of shoemaking.bootmaking as making the patterns themselves. And ought to be an integral part of maintaining leather footwear. So any hardening of the leather that you are experiencing, especially in the face of what minimal wetting may occur during the making process, has to be investigated for other causes, I think.

I know about patterns (though I'm not an expert). I've made shoes and lace-up boots and readily acknowledge that patterns can make a difference. In fact, when making shoes you have an advantage that a bootmaker doesn't have, in that you can spring the vamp independent of the "quarters" in such a way as to have the shape of the last nearly replicated in the assembled patterns. With boots, there is not such a high degree of conformability.

Beyond that, I still have not heard a good reason *for* dry lasting (your's came closest) and I still have not resolved my worry that the leather will collapse back on itself when the last is pulled. Leather *is* a "plastic" medium--that's one of its advantages over other materials--if you stretch dry leather it will *always* want to return to its unstretched state, in my experience. The patterns may give you shape (up to a point) but they cannot assure "girth."

Perhaps, in the end, the best thing that can be said about dry lasting...from the perspective of this old bootmaker...is that it is much more forgiving. You can be off in your measurements or in the placement of the "fittings" and the shoe will stretch--with the *moisture* and heat from the foot... Image Of course this also raises questions about the long term "beauty" of the shoe/boot...will it hold its shape, size, and good looks as it breaks in? I don't know, but in the case of pull-on boots, at least, I am doubtful.

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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#229 Post by relferink »

DW,

We are trying to compare apples and oranges. Your boots are a work tool that needs to stand up to the worst abuse. A cowboy may stand in the mud for 6 days straight and his feet are suppose to be comfortable and reasonable dry. A little spit shine and those same boots need to be good enough for a night out. My orthopedic shoes are a medical aid to allow someone to walk who has a foot condition that prevents them from wearing off the shelf. Subsequently the leathers and constructions we use will be very different. You point out correctly that in shoes you can rotate the vamp vs the quarters. I take that’s what you mean by “spring the vamp”. That in fact is what makes a shoe fit and stay in shape even when dry lasted. If the fit of the assembled patterns does not closely resemble the last your shoe will not hold up and your better of throwing them away and start again.

Sure the shoes will get wet in the rain but not likely soaked over and over. I also instruct my customers when shoes get wet stuff them with papers and let them dry away from a heat source, than polish. I know for a fact that most do not follow my advice but what can you do.
An other even more important point is that the upper is only mend to cover the foot, not to hold it check. The last has to be made so that the finished product is a well balance package. That’s why we’re so big on the orthotic build into the last. The orthotic in combination with a good heelcounter should be all you need.

As for the leather collapsing on itself, sorry won’t happen. Sure leather has somewhat of a memory to it but if you keep the stretch of the leather in mind when you cut the parts and leave the shoe on the last for 12 hours or so your fine. Your point about dry lasting being more forgiving. I disagree and think the opposite, wet lasting is much more forgiving to get he shoe/boot on the last nicely. Sure when your off in your last your shoe will stretch but that will happen even with a wet lasted shoe. Leather still is this awesome natural material with millions of fibers that under the influence of pressure and moister will mold to about anything. My point is that with a good fit you don’t have the pressure on the upper that will be enough to make it stretch out of shape. The long term beauty of the shoe is mostly in the hand of the user. My experience is that shoe polish is a rear commodity and repairs are only thought of in the context of cars. I believe this has more to do with the obsession of consumption in this society but that is a whole other discussion and this may not be the most suitable place for that.

Back home in the Netherlands we have a saying that roughly translates: “There are many roads that lead to Rome”. What I seem to be taking away from this wet/dry debate is that you have to know your material and your customer. Anticipate the use and subsequently choose the best method. There is not one simple formula that tells you what to do to achieve the best result.
If I know shoemakers they are very stubborn and set in there ways but also innovative and always eying their fellow shoemakers to keep their “edge”. If only one of us experiments with a new technique it has been worth all the time spend behind the screen instead of the shop.

I can’t wait to learn more about the Western boot so I can give that a try. It’ll be a couple of months before I can even start spending some time on it but it sure is on the list. Any of you who can tell me where to start? I know shoemaking but need to find out the specifics of a western last vs a regular last. Than I guess I need to learn how to get the upper started. I’ve been reading the board and realize I have a lot to learn.

One more question to the group before I leave you in peace. Any fellow orthopedic shoemakers here? I would be interested to see a topic in the board on orthopedics but I don’t know to what extent this will be supported. Just a thought.

Have a great holiday weekend.

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#230 Post by jpboots »

DW:
I soak the entire boot no matter what color.
BUT lighter color leathers are not soaked as long. Just long enough to soften the leather counter etc.

JP
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#231 Post by dw »

Joe,

I do too. That's my point. A boot that is wet entirely, dries out evenly...with none of that "beach foam." I'm not sure what the distilled water adds...??

How thick do you make your counters and how long is a minimum to soften the counters, in your opinion? Do you try to get them wet clear through?

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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#232 Post by cmw »

Robert

Sahva is a large company that has set standard price scales with the state here in Denmark. The fact that Sahva says yes to so many patients means a lot of small private makers make shoes for Sahva, which in turn tacts a % on top of that. Heck, even ortho-adjustments have a set price range. In our case we are allowed to add up to 5 cm onto a shoe. Varus, valgus, wedges for the inside of the shoe(for lack of the right word in English) and so on all have a price. A person is welcome to do the job cheaper. I can’t gripe about the money (Once I get my own shop). Time wise you/one makes a good hr. rate.

There are two cobblers in my class( 1 is myself) and 6 orthop.-apprentices. I know 4 work for Sahva atleast some times.

I wonder, did you learn to make hand made shoes as much as possible? The orthopedic makers here are very proud of that fact.
Everybody is scrambling to get the trade given to a younger generation here, because we are also facing the same loss of knowledge when the oldest generation stops. Cobbler wise we are truely a vanishing breed. My boss/master is one of the few that can take a pr. of womens boots and sew them in to measurement without anybody being able to see the change.

CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#233 Post by gaid »

Robert,
-------
There is not one simple formula that tells you what to do to achieve the best result.
-------
Well said! I try to look at this topic, and all others too, kind of pragmatical. Even though I last dry most of the times I don't hesitate to last wet if needed.

I have been working as an orthopedic shoemaker here in Sweden. The last 15 years partially because I have made bespoked shoes/boots too. My master is from Germany so I have been learned the trade the German way. Sad to say the trade is in a deep crisis these days in Sweden. The last three years have I been working in a big shop in Stockholm. During that period I don't think I made more then 10-15 pairs of hand made shoes. The reason is, we don't make any money on hand made shoes! The concept is ready to wear "comfort shoes" and individually inserts. I try to stay away from the orthopedic works shop from now because I can't stand to see the decay of a trade.

I guess the only way to know if there is an interest regarding the orthopeadic stuff is to ask a question and see if there is any respons. I was mostly working with diabetic and rheumatic patiens.

JEM
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#234 Post by jpboots »

DW
I use approx 9-11 Iron thickness counters...since you know that this is part of the foundation of the boot and keeps the foot in line while walking. I soak them until they are floppy like a soft noodle.
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#235 Post by relferink »

Chris,

Thanks for the explanation, I found Savha’s web site. Looks like the company has a major monopoly, how do they get away with that? Must have to do that they deal with crafts people, not administrators. What a shame.

What type of course are you in? As far as my traditional skills on hand making shoes goes, they are a little more rusty than I would like but yes I was taught hands on how to make shoes by hand in a traditional fashion. Since these techniques are not used in everyday shoemaking anymore my skills have gotten quite rusty. The more the excitement finding The Honourable Cordwainers' Company where a great group of crafts man and women are preserving and using these techniques.


Janne,

The trade is in a horrible state everywhere and guess what; it’s only a matter of time till we see all the orthopedic shoes made in china or the next extreme low wage country where they are put together by line workers in a highly automated factory. The push away from the orthopedic to the comfort shoe is very apparent here. In fact for the last 10 year I’ve been a salesman instead of a shoemaker. Worked in the world’s best hospitals and rehab facilities but was only able to provide comfort shoes or “space shoes“. I’m not saying that there is no use for the “depth shoes” as they are called here but I was frustrated by not having the custom orthopedic shoes available to help those who need it most. I recently started my own shop, thanks to a closing small shoe factory that did custom work I got myself some sewing machines, materials, lasts and the like. My aim is to provide good quality, highly functional orthopedic shoes. I know I can’t change the world but want to do the best I can and find fulfillment in what I do. I think I found it now but need get myself back up to speed after having been out of it for so many years.

Looking forward to future exchanges with fellow orthopedic shoemakers. I will be certain to post messages on a regular basis aimed more to the orthopedic site of the trade and your right, we’ll see what kind of response there is.

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#236 Post by cmw »

Rob

The "Service shoe makers" or cobblers that are approved by the guild here in Denmark are trained for 2 yrs. 9 months. Orthopedic makers, or hand shoe makers as they say, take almost 4 yrs. If I'm lucky enough to continue after Nov. I hope to get that extra yr. stretched to 1.5 or 2 more. my present master doesn't think I would need it if/when I start to just make shoes every day, but I'de rather get some extra time and get to be good at it.

We start by going to school for six months. After that we are at work. A cobbler gets two more trips back to school, both 7 wks a piece. Orthopedic makers go back two extra times.

While on the subject, don't loose heart. I've heard from our student rep. in the guild that a teacher/orthop.-maker is going to be sent to the USA to teach/train people in the branch. He'll be paid by the big German suppliers. All this is in the brain storming stage but they seem set on the idea.

I almost forgot. I can TRY to take some pictures of some of thier(classemates) work and post it. I'm almost finished with some look-a-like viking shoes for some re-enactors.

Gotta go a class calls.
CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#237 Post by relferink »

Chris,

The schooling system in the Netherlands was set up for students to spend one day a week in school, no hands on other than drawing patterns and work the rest of the week as an apprentice in the profession. We had a traveling teacher that kept track of your hands on training, he would pop in every couple of months and give you some tasks. In school there were 3 ”blocks” of 2 years each that would make one an orthopedic shoe maker. The first years of school are mainly focused on learning “normal” shoes and shoe making, later the true orthopedic aspect including evaluation comes in the mix.

I'd be interested to find out more on the training mission coming to the US. I know Gotz was talking about such a thing about 10 years ago but don't know if they ever did and if they are behind this mission. Please keep us informed when news becomes available.

Pictures are always good, I should go around and make some to but first I have to get some work done

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#238 Post by cmw »

Rob /anybody else?

I thought I would write back while there is time and I remember.

I talked to my instr. in shop about what you said about the way you were trained. He seems to think it would help here. It would make the masters use more time on the students to get their speed up.
Most places here have gone up to ca. 6 pairs. a wk. If you can't keep up, find another trade.

I think the pics. are small enough now, so I'll try to upload them to the photo section in the disc. group. I had to reprogram the keyboard too.

CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#239 Post by relferink »

Chris,

Nice pictures. Make some more of that viking shoe. I'm not familiar with a viking period shoe so I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Maybe you can post a picture that shows the whole shoe. Any of the other shoes made by you? The lift seems odd, the heel seems so flat than this huge drop off. Is it like a 12 to 14 cm lift? I would probably opt for a high top last. This would give additional stability in the ankle and would allow for a stiffened padded tong since the foot that is plantiflexted to this degree takes a lot of pressure on the dorsum (top of the foot). I have seen different materials used for lifts, cork, balsa wood and Poly Urethane foam.
I say this without knowing anything about the customer so keep in mind that these are just some general remarks.

Don't get overwhelmed with computer gadgets that some shops have. They are only another tool. Without traditional expertise and skill they are only good for collecting dust.

The downside on the way I was trained is that as far as hands on you only tends to learn the way things are done in the one shop you work and that the more traditional ways are not thought. I can not remember a pair of shoes in daily production being goodyear sewn, hand or machine. So when I had to learn this I did some test runs and than may have had to made a shoe for my instructor but never got really got the technique down like the old guys that can sew a pair in under 20 minutes. Sure I know the basic principle and can figure it out if I had to but it's not the same.
This goes for a lot of techniques that are not used on a daily basis by a modern shoe orthopedic shoe maker who has to worry about making shoes that meet quality guidelines and price restrictions set by insurance companies that no nothing about shoemaking.

Having started my own shop now I still have to worry about paying my bills and not waisting to much time but I have the option to make my own choices what techniques to use. Not having much money for fancy machinery I tend to refer back to more traditional ways. Challenging but so far I am enjoying it more than anything I've done recently.

Chris I read some old posts and you may have explained before but how the ...... does a Texan end up in Denmark. I take it you were not in the shoe business before you got to Denmark. How did you end up in the shoe business. I know a lot of people that go into the profession as a second career. I was in school with a guy that was a sailor for a long time before he started going to school for orthopedic shoemaker. An Military police officer that wanted a new career but droped out somewhere along the way. No wonder a shoemaker is a jack of so many trades.
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#240 Post by cmw »

Rob

It’s time to misuse my wife and let her make the first part of supper. I just love sitt’n her while she works.

To tell the truth, I never asked him how thick the lift is. I’d guess 15 cm from the pict. I talked to him about the cork. It is not the normal cork; there is a ? % rubber in it. it is very light weight.

Being a cobbler (appr.) I don’t get to make that many shoes. I’ve spent a lot of time on orth. adjustments this time in school. I’m trying to get my speed up for my journeyman's test. The cobblers test is kinda rough. 1 pr. men's leather 1/2 or 3/4 sole and heel. Another pr. with Macabe? ( sewn through insole) and heel. A third pr. women's shoes complete resole. Nr. 4 is a varus /valgus and the 5 th pr. is a height adjustment . All this can not take more than 8 hours. The worst part is if the adjustment/varus is off 0.5 mm. then its no good.

With this all in mind I have stuck with the pumps and the viking shoes. Last time we were in school, I made a western style clog/slipper. I was kinda sad because I had to rush through it the last day I was in school. I went back to work three days early because a friends store closed and we were given all the shoes to fix for his customers ,apart from ours. I have also made some sandals for my wife and some military style boots for my self. I think there is a picture in the computer. I will check after I write this.

By the way I have no idea which century shoe the viking shoes look like. The book i have says 7th to 11th, But a friend just got back from Stockholm and saw some just like them. (with out the soft rubber wedge and the cork wedge that’s inside). She says 16 th century according to the museum. I’ll take a picture this wk, so you can see the whole shoe.

The jack of all trades expression is not far off for me, I’ve tried many things. Building homes was one. and building seismic cables was another. Then you throw in fishing boats and what ever work there was at the time. You might say that a double back injury at work made me change trades, but I was ready for a change. While doing security work of all sorts here I did some thinking and came up with shoe making. It took ca. three yrs. to be sure before the big jump took place. Now I’m poor and looking at a life time of learning. The 1st part I don’t like , the 2nd is cool. The poor part is easy to get around if I want to travel. I just help give seminars or give some of my own. The school where I still teach once a week pays for cost. I like that!!!!!

How I got here? In short, I have a daughter here with a women I met in the states. I refuse to live in the states while my daughter is here. Now I’m married and have a son that is 16 months. (NOT WITH MY DAUGHTERS MOTHER) Once my daughter is old enough, I’m coooommin home. Martial arts has helped to keep me from going completely crazy, so I’ll hold out a few more years.

Now I have a question for you. You say that you have your own place now. How much was the start up price and what do you have in your shop? I don’t plan on just doing orth. work once I get as far as you, but it can’t be far off for a normal boot or shoe maker. Be gentle with me I cry easily in my old age of 37.


Dinner calls.
CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#241 Post by relferink »

Apologies for taking so long to reply. So much to do, so little time. Just installed a new OS on my computer, finally dumped Microsoft so things should get better. But that’s part of a different discussion on the board.

Getting back to the picture of the buildup in The Gallery: the cork used in the lift is not the type that is ground down and has rubber mixed in. This makes cork more flexible but a lot heavier. I recognize the type of cork but haven’t run into it here in the US so I’m not sure what the English name is. If anybody can help me out please feel free…... It has a “grain” by lack of a better word like in wood. Very light but it breaks easy. Through the height of the buildup you get enough strength to make it durable.

Chris, you talk about the test where you have to put in valgus/varus wedges. How is the task given to you, by the height of the wedge or by the nr. of degrees of tilt that needs to be achieved.
Sounds like you have traveled around the world and done it all. I have to applaud you for sticking with your daughter! Is your wife interested in comeing back to Texas with you?

My shop is very primitive and a long way from where I would like it to go but it works for me now. When a small custom shoe factory around here went out of business I found all kind of things I could use. The big items like machines were already gone but on the bottom shelves of their last room I found some bags with old hand tools. Mostly rusted away but some really nice finds. The equipment in my shop: a singer 236W125 post machine. I bought two, both needed work, one I got in working condition fast but I still need to fix a gasket that leaks oil, the other one needs a total rebuild. I’m planning on doing it myself someday. I’ll get to it when I get to it. I was lucky enough to find the manuals for these old machines on line. http://www.cuttersexchange.com/ for Singer and Pfaff manuals.
I also bought a Jack master grinder, I have an old bench grinder 2 singer 29-2 repair machines. One needs more work than I am willing to put into it. I should try to sell this one. See http://elferink.home.attbi.com/ if your interested. Contact me by Email! Bought approx. 100 pairs of non-orthopedic lasts that I may or may not use but the price was right. All and all I think I must have spend around 10K to get started, this include a decent selection of leather that I bought, work bench all kinds of small hand tools and so much stuff that doesn’t look like much each time you order something but adds up quickly.
Like I said before, not my dream setup but all future investments in the shop I want to be justified by the work volume. My next major purchase will be a Minke Primat or a VacuTherm.
Then there is the consideration that in the beginning I’m not making much of a living so I have to live of some savings. I hope this will not be for long but for planning purposes I figure I would not break even in the first 24 months. If I’m lucky I can make some money that I will reinvest in getting a better setup. Hope this is usefull information.

Have a good weekend

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#242 Post by Sharon Raymond »

Greetings, I have had a little time to experiment with Upaco water-based neoprene cement, and am very grateful for being informed of this product. I would like to check with those who are using it regarding what surfaces they have had good results in bonding with it: leather to leather, leather to rubber, rubber to rubber.. I generally use rubber soling in my shoemaking, and have not obtained good results yet while bonding rubber to rubber; however, I have obtained good bonding with rubber (by this I mean synthetic rubber sheets) and natural latex rubber - so I am inserting 6 iron sheets of this between the synthetic rubber sheets I want to bond. However, if you are getting good results w/ leather to leather, I might work with leather soling more. I don't know if you (specifically DW, since it is your descriptions of the use of this cement I have been reading) use the cement simply to bond the materials before nailing or stitching them, or whether the Upaco is holding layers together that will not be secured in any other manner. Thanks!
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#243 Post by dw »

Sharon,

I wouldn't depend on the Upaco to hold anything permanently. I have used it to bond leather to leather--it's especially valuable bonding oiled leathers--and I have used it to bond neoprene toplifts to leather heel bases. But in every case, I was intending to either sew or nail the components.

Personally, I almost never rely on cement alone. I know some think that solvent based all-purpose is strong enough not to need thread or nails...and I would probably agree. And I know that some methods of construction--most notably those that have evolved in a post modern, factory context--are deliberately cement-centric, so to speak. But I've seen too many pairs of boots and shoes that have come apart from faulty cement. And I avoid techniques that are not as reliable as I can make them. Nothing is perfect, of course, but a little redundancy never hurt anything and the lack thereof can be disastrous...especially in footwear that is fundamentally intended to be "rode hard and put up wet."

Bottom line is..if you want my advice...don't rely on the water based cement to do exactly everything that a solvent based cement will do. It's a speciallty item.

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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#244 Post by cmw »

Rob
We all know how it can be; there’s no need to explain.

You are are a MacMan? If it is OS X you put in it takes a while to get used to it. It’s far from the classic OS. I put in an extra 500 mb ram with mine.

About the test. They give it to us in mm. With that said, it does bring up the issue of the changes that show them self, if the welt is one of the modern very wide ones. I would guess that they mean ?mm. at the insole line. I’ll remember to talk to my master about it just so it is clear.

As to your question about my wife and moving to Texas. The only thing holding us back at that time will be her family. My wife knows how strongly I feel and that moving home will be for good. I can’t/will not move back to DK. In short she knows it will be for good, so she will have to be certain. Let’s hope.

While on the subject of Travel. Have you been to Denmark with a Lady-friend? Some classmates say they may know who you are.

About the cork material. Have you considered forming a buying group and have some materials shipped from Europe? I know a lot of the boot makers in the group do it. It might be a cheap way to get some machines that you are used to working with. I know that there are a lot of shops that close here in DK. This has to be true for other countries to. A half or a quarter of a shipping container can’t cost that much if a group divides the cost. I shipped a lot of things this way once. I forget the price, but I’m certain it was not that bad.

10 kilo for startup is far from bad. That is a very cheap startup price. My boss says most people figure on an inventory startup price of 40 000 kr. (ca. 5 000 dollars). This is of course for a cobblers shop. The tools and machines get you after that. The amount you quoted has given me hope that it will not be too bad when I move home. Hand tools can be shipped from here when we move.

If my boy doesn’t wake up I’ll post the picts of the viking look-a-like shoe.

CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#245 Post by relferink »

Chris

No not a mac. I went for Linux, penguins all the way. So far I like it, takes a little looking around for the controls but nothing that makes no sense what soever. NO more blue screens! On my old HP Pentium III, 800 MHz it seems faster than windows 2000. I was worried about the installation but that was a breeze, as long as you can put the right number cd in the drive it goes very smooth.

On the varus / valgus wedges, the size of the shoe is important and the with of the welt and/or outsole. That determents the degree of correction. Check with you teacher where the hight is measured, the insole line seems sensible but somewhat hard to check for grading purposes. When I get a prescription (Rx) to fill for wedges it's mostly for small children and there's only one doctor in the area that does most of that. I know what he is looking for and the measurement is not the benchmark but experience and common sense are. The flexibility of the foot is important, is the shoe rigid with a leather sole or a very flexible sneaker. The only way to get there is to do lots of them. Until you can get the experience fill the Rx as it is written and when you dispense pay close attention. You may notice the correction does not work as well as expected or is to interruptive in the gait. If you do you just learned something!

Never been to Denmark (yet) so I guess it wasn't me. I had a co-worker that went there with his wife and family and he couldn't stop talking about the beautiful women. Your classmate may have heard the family name. 4th generation in custom orthopedic shoes and my father and uncle are very well known in the industry back home. I think my uncle Frans did some traveling through Scandinavia when when he was younger.

I am considering bringing materials in from Europe when needed but I prefer to find local vendors. I also like to see and tough the materials I buy. The quality variations can only be appreciated when you get to touch feel and smell the materials.
For machines it's a little more complicated since they need to be rewired or need complete new motors due to the voltage difference. Some friends recently installed an orthotic milling machine from Germany and they got an electrician to do some kind of “magic trick” to get 380V, 3 phases. From what I heard they spend a lot of money.
The machines I got were cheap, not the best quality but they work and later on I can upgrade. For example my sewing machines. I paid 200 a peace, if I had bought a similar model refurbished from a dealer it would have cost me 1500 to 1800. The Jack Master grinder I bought for 500. I think the design of the machine is not that great since the sanding belt is tilted down to the motor below, this way it carries a lot of dust and sanding debris onto the motor and the drum. Still it works and the price was right. If I had not found the factory going out of business I would probably not have started my shop at this time. I would have been saving more to be able to afford the expensive equipment.

I like to go on the cheap, fix it myself if I can and buy new when I can afford it. This way I also know that no matter what problem I run into with that machine I can fix it. Eventually I like to get a custom build shop wall from Hardo or Jos America. My startup price included some materials but most I buy as I need it. The jobs are quite involved and take time. If I order my materials when I get the customer's order I will be fine. It takes a little planning and I usually buy more than I need so I slowly build a material inventory and don't have to drop the money in up front.

The viking shoe looks nice. How did you make the patterns? Does the shoe have a lateral closure? While I think of it, nice job on the sandal. The stitching on the straps looks great, very nice and evenly.

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#246 Post by cmw »

Rob

Sorry you are not a mac man !!!!!!!!
To tell the truth I considered Linux when I switched. a friend in Germany did and is really happy with it. The only thing is you need to learn a lot of codes( key combnations) to use it to it’s full potential. If you can do that you are off and running.

I get to bring my own shoes to the test. I’ll make sure they are a good pair for the varus/valgus.

About your friend/co-worker; it might be him if he moved to the states a while back. You are more or less brain washed to make shoes aren’t you? I know how it is. I promised my self that I would stay away from cops, my father is one. What did I do when I moved here? Did security work first and then started teaching cops when I started in the shoe branch. I guess we can not get away from our past.

About the pattern for the shoes. I used the tape method, the one you asked about in the other post. Frank Jones (The man that sells the book and teaches? in the methods) is in the group. If he doesn’t have time to answer you here, then alot of us have his e-mail.

The opening is what you see. Slide the foot in and pull the large strap over and tie to the wooden "Buttons" The shoe is made of three parts to get the added stiffness from the stitches on the side.


BTW, thank you on the shoes. The sandals were the very first pair of shoes I made. I did them after a month at work. Then Six months in school. Apart from that they have a hard time getting me out of the sewing shop and shoe shop at school. I’m a little sad that I’ll be going back to the heat and stress of the store in a few days.


Gotta go, a class calls.

CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#247 Post by relferink »

Chris,

I like Mac but have all this PC hardware that I don't want to replace. I find Linux very much like windows, just a little faster and no more BLUE SCREENS. If you can click it you can do it. All graphic interfaces. I believe Linux can run on Mac hardware. Some vendors have test CD's that are nice to try. Linux boots and runs from the CD without changing your system. Pop out the CD and you have your old system back. I know Suse has this for PC hardware. I believe they also do for Mac Hardware.

Do you know where the guy your classmate knows moved to in the US? I only know of one other Dutchman, he moved to Canada some thirty years ago and runs a very successful orthopedic shop in Alberta. Being between shoes is second nature. From as early as I could walk I was in my fathers shop, yet I learned a lot of the art away from home. I found out it is better to learn from a stranger than from relatives. That way your just one of the guys rather than the son of the boss.

What I mend to ask about the viking shoe uppers, there seems to be a folding line over the top of the vamp. Do you have a photo of your vamp pattern laid out? I can't quite figure out how that would be by just looking at the shoe.

I have Frank's email but prefer to post here so others may learn as well and contribute. Recently got his book and I'm really enjoying it. Some new things and a lot of things that were stacked away somewhere in my head and got refreshed by reading the book.

Time to go to bed and get ready for a long day on the road tomorrow.

Rob
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#248 Post by the_joat »

Robert -

The latest Mac systems run OSX, which is unix based. Apple essentially tossed out the existing Mac OS and started fresh with this system.

There is a full, free, linux (actually, Debian) system like you describe for PCs called Knoppix. It's available for free download over the web, or for just a few dollars if you can't burn your own CD, and I've used it on several computers, including my laptop.

Knoppix is a free and Open Source "live" Linux CD. It is a GNU/Linux distribution that boots runs completely from cd. It includes recent linux software and desktop environments, with programs such as OpenOffice.org, Abiword, The Gimp, Konqueror, Mozilla, and hundreds more quality open source programs.
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#249 Post by cmw »

Rob

I don’t think I’m up to learning a third computer system. Besides, an apprentice doesn’t have that much money. Just think I’m working on prolonging my poor status another two years.

I know what you mean about the family/work situation. I’ve tried a version of it. It makes you a little hard if the wrong co-workers are present.

One last thing, today was my last school day. We have to waite and hear about your co-worker from Holland.

The pictures are on the way.

CW
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Re: miscellaneous tips, advice, and cautions

#250 Post by dw »

Thank Garth for Duct Tape, eh?
2448.jpg


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