Tools of the Trade

[jenny_fleishman]

Don't know if this would be of use to anyone, but I got an e-mail from Siegel of Californa with some sale items, including the Osborne TL86 splitter, which is on sale for $242.71. They normally sell it for $515, although I've seen it on sale elsewhere for about $400.

Jenny

[paul]

Ya know,

I was just rethinking my question and came back to the forum to edit it. Too late. I just wasn't thinkin', I guess.

Yet your comment just now about the width of the cut, is what I was really interested in. And I guess even that is obvious.

I may be a little slow sometimes, but I still want one.

PK

[leech77]

Greetings folks! My name is Eric, I'm a brandy new member from Pennsylvania, USA. I'm largely self taught and would like to learn the proper and traditional way for shoe making. A few of my stumbling points so far have been finding tools (mainly and insole plane, needles for sewing the welt, and proper awls)and the whole question of the the feather itself. I've employed a method of my own to deal with the feather that I'm sure those in the traditional craft would frown upon, but it's worked for me so far. Please be patient with me as I'm just starting out, but I'm eager to learn. We'll start with proper tools. Where can I get them?

[marcell]

Dear Eric,

Let me great you first, from the other end of the world (Hungary, Europe). I buy the old tools from old shoemakers who don't continue the trade. In Hungary you can buy a whole collection - with approx. 40-50 tools - for approx. 50 USD.

Maybe you should define exactly what you want to do, which technologies, and there are many experts here, who can tell you what to buy.

[leech77]

Thank you for the warm welcome Marcell. Right now, I'm just looking for hand tools, particularly a tool for cutting the feather in the insole. Also, what is the proper thickness of the insole leather on a standard pair of oxfords? I'm afraid the leather I'm using might be too thin (a hair less than one eight inch). Any help anyone can afford is much appreciated.
Thanks,
-E-

[marcell]

I use 3.5-4 mm for insole (I am talking about English sewn technology). Actually here is a video about preparation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6LsE4nsEOJk

The leather must be soft, so if you feel it thin - most probably that is not the right one. May I suggest to make some photos of your work and post? That would be easier for me (maybe us) to understand your problems.

[lancepryor]

Eric:

There are a few tools you can use for cutting the feather. A tool made specially for this purpose is the Tina Insole Knife available from Euro International in Florida (as noted elsewhere, once you buy from them they will bug you to buy more stuff, so be prepared for follow-up phone calls, though they always take my brush-offs pretty well). http://www.eurointl.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1084&osCsid=bf681c7 e3fa8a6f2222370ae584384cc

Another thing I think you could perhaps use would be a welt knife, which turn up more often on e-bay. I think DW uses a french edger with one of the rails cut off. You can read his commentary elsewhere as to how he does this, as well as watch his video of preparing the insole.

I believe a pretty common thickness for insoles is 8 iron, which is about 4mm or about 1/8 inch.

For inseaming awls, I suggest you contact Edwin Hale at 805-636-1442, who sells a range of awl blades from Colin Barnsley, along with a bunch of other tools (including nice skiving knives) you might find useful. He can also sell you hafts for your awls, though once you get into it you might want to buy some from Dick Anderson, who makes superlative hafts for inseaming. Finding tools is always a challenge.

[relferink]

Eric,

Welcome to the Colloquy! You already have some good advice. One other suggestion I have is to become friendly with your local finder. Not only do they have a great deal of knowledge on materials and tools you can use, they also are the first to know if any shoemaker or cobbler is closing shop. If you can locate an old timer who's retiring you could find a treasure in old tools that are otherwise hard to come by.

For sewing you can use bristles, your local finder carries the steel type and may even have some board bristles. Alternatively you can used guitar string or nylon. You can find a lot of info on both of those on the forum.
Dick Anderson also makes awls. Check him out at www.thornappleriverboots.com

I'd be interested to learn about the feather you use. We don't frown to much upon unconventional methods. If you can come up with a way that works for you, that's great. Having it figured out from scratch, that's all the better. If you are willing to share it we may all learn something or you may hear why a different approach is preferred or better.


Rob

[leech77]

Thanks Rob and everyone else for thae great advice! This is indeed a friendly community. As for my method of the feather Rob, as I said, it's unconventional, but it has worked for me. I just cut an insole and then cut a strip of leather out of the same stuff, like a welt only more narrow (1/4 inch wide) I use gorilla glue to stick it on than clamp it over night. Unconventional, but it works for me. I found that it was a lot harder to break through one of these feathers. I always had trouble with the feather breaking when doing it the old fashoined way, although that cvouldd be because I didn't have the right tools to cut the feather in the first place. I really would however like to get on to the traditional way of cutting a feather and welting. Thanks again for your help.
-E-

[relferink]

Eric,

That method sounds similar to the way a Goodyear shoe is sewn in a factory stetting. They cement a fabric covered rubber strip to the insole and the Goodyear machine will catch the strip and stitch the upper and welt to it.

If you have problems with your feather breaking the grade of your insole leather would be suspect. When in doubt hammer the insole to compress the fibers. If the fibers in the leather are too short there is not to much you can do other than cementing on a holdfast.

The downside I see to adding a strip of material for your holdfast is that the construction get thicker. A hand sewn inseamed shoe is very flexible and nice and thin on the sole. It's meant to be so flexible that the owner is barely aware he's wearing shoes.
That said, whatever works for you is what you do. I'm sure once you find an insole that has the correct grade and consistency you'll feel the difference in the way it handles and the way it wears.

Rob

BTW how do you clamp the holdfast strip on the insole without it sliding away? Do you use a press?

[leech77]

I have 2 peices of wood cut out in the shape of the particular insole I'm using. I actually take the insole off of the last and use small C-clamps to press the "feather" into place while the glue dries. I would be interested in trying a high quality insole leather. The stuff I have been using is from a saddle shop owned by some amish friends. I was just picking a leather that seemed to be thick enough. I guess that isn't the best way to go about it. Can anyone recommend a good place to buy insole leather, or what to tell my leather provider I'm looking for. Is neck leather good for insoles?
Thanks,
-E-

[paul]

Eric,

Another welcome to our community.

I'm about to place an order for another couple of insole shoulders, myown self.

Stevenson-Paxton can help you out,
800-648-1622.

You want long flexible fibers, to oppose the tension the knot will put upon it. The shoulder and neck area are great for this. On the hand, the short tight fibers of the rump are good against abrasion in the wear areas.

And don't forget to lightly sand off the grain surface with a fine grit paper. It can begin to crack within just a couple years of wear, if you don't.

In his book on Full Wellingtons, DW says something like, "Pride of craft is a combination of respect for tradition and skills earned"

Keep on earnin',
Paul

[dw]

Erick,

Welcome aboard. I have no doubt you will find answers to most if not all your questions here--some of the best and brightest shoemakers and bootmakers haunt this board and are, with a little tempting and teasing, ready to help out folks who are genuinely interested. As I am sure you have already found out.

Again, welcome...and don't be a "ghost."


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

Eric,

I assumed you left the insole on the last, that makes clamping it a lot more challenging. Thanks for clearing that up.

Rob

[leech77]

Quick question about stitching the welt. I prefer the old ends method, but would a speedy stitcher awl give the same result? It does form the same type of lock stitch if I'm not mistaken.
-E-

[relferink]

Eric,

I don't care to much for the speedy stitcher. In my opinion the holes it makes are to large, that will cause the thread not to hold securely once your done. Additionally it makes a lock stitch, not a shoemakers stitch.
The hole made by the awl should be just large enough to pass both threads through, nothing extra to get a secure hold. With the speedy stitcher you feed a needle and two threads through at the same time. Once you pull back the needle there is extra room that will potentially weaken the stitches.

Hope this makes sense.

Rob

[paul]

Eric,

Yes the speedy-stitcher does do a lock stitch, just as a jerk needle used in repairs to stitch welts. (Which I did for many many years) A shoe makers stitch is really more like a knot than a lock. However that type of lock stitch would never be as tight as a proper shoe makers stitch. And that's the rub.

Rub actually is a good word for it too. When a stitch is not tight, any movement of the surfaces will gradually cause the seam to fail. Addionally the hole can enlarge, and the thread could stretch more as well.

However when the thread is waxed with a good shoe wax, and "popped" into to place using a shoe makers stitch, which melts the wax and then it resolidifies, the knot is secured in a way one often cannot undo, even years later. The seam moves 'as a piece'.

In the years I did shoe repair, I learned that a lock stitch done witrh a "jerk needle", which is a needle with a hook on it, will last a year or more even under rough wear. Casual wear even longer. As long as sole will last which is worn as much.

The deal is, the rub if you will, is that when one handmakes a shoe or boot that can potentially last for twenty years or more, one wants the internal components and materials not to be the cause of any failure. As I like to say, "it's going to be done for a long time, take the time to do it right".

That said, earning a skill is as much a matter of learning the hard way through unpleasant experiences, as it is a matter of mastering a more difficult, yet superior method of operation.

Enjoy the journey,

Paul

[leech77]

Quick question about nails for plastic lasts. What kind is the best? I tried using 3/4" X 18 guage wire brads and they keep pulling out. Should I be using a ring nail or something? I've found that steel hand tacks (like for tack lasting) hold they best, but the break easily when bent. Any help is much appreciated.
God Rest,
-E-

[romango]

If you drive the brads in further, they behave better. Also, bending them over, against the pull of the leather stabilizes them. Hand tacks work best when fully seated. I use these when very secure fastening is desired.

[romango]

Also, I prefer 7/8 inch #18 brads, if you can find them.

[marcell]

A question: how much should I pay for this machine and what is it good for? (and...should I even buy it? )

http://n2.vatera.hu/photos/f6/4a/9a2_1_big.jpg

[artzend]

Marcell,

it is a curved needle outsole stitcher, I had one at one stage. I didn't have much joy with it but that doesn't mean it's no good. Someone else may have more experience with it. It has two types of blade to move the work along. One cuts a straight channel and the other has two teeth for use with rubber soles. It can be mounted on a stand with a motor driving it.

If you have a Landis or something like that it is probably better.

Tim

[paul]

Marcell,

I saw my first one of these in the Netherlands several uears ago, and this is only the second since then. So I have very limited experience with it. However I've never heard anyone speak highly of this stlye for a sole stitcher.
Surely someone can make these work well, but I've never heard it.
I would be courious to take a hand at it, as it is way smaller than my Sutton Rapid E!

Good Luck,
Paul

[big_larry]

I would like to share my experience of building a lasting stand for the sake of anyone who may be contemplating this project. I know all of you journeymen boot makers have already learned this lesson but repitition might save some poor soul a bit of frustration.

I completed the R. I. Merrell Institute of Bootmaking a year ago last September. I had observed how his lasting stands were constructed and I immediatly jumped into building one after getting home.

I used an old 5 leg chair base and welded one inch steel studs where the rollers had been. I welded in a 1 1/2 inch steel tube and made a hinge for the support arm that goes under the toe of the boot. I padded the support with several layers of leather and finally a sheep wool cover. Worked great until I started making taller top boots.

The tops sitting up-side down position got scrunched down where the screw hinge attached too the post. I am now getting up a head of stean, to try a pair of wellingtons and it is clear that my stand will not due because the arm that holds the toe support is too short. I have decided that I will build a new stand with the toe support arm attached right at the bottom of the main upright. I will make it adjustable so it can slide up the main post a little and adjust in and out, but the length of open space between the lasting pin and the arm attachment will be the maximum length I can make it. It will accomadate the longer, or taller tops.

I have recently had a total shoulder and a total knee replacement. I have been a mess but now I am recovering and getting some hours in the boot shop. Oh yes, I am a certified "Woosie" and will probably wait till warmer weather gets here to build the lasting stand. My wife let me put the boot shop in the basement but she drew the line at moving the metal shop into the house. Some women are just narrow minded you know.

I hope this information about a lasting stand will help someone else from the mistake I made by making the toe supportarm too short.

Best wishes, Larry Peterson

[marcell]

I have a question... This site has a picture about a tool, which I just got from an old shoemakers collection.

http://www.thehcc.org/discus/clipart/STARWELT.gif

What is it good for? I have never met anything like this before.