The Crispin Colloquy

Larry,

I don't think anything good can come of "super pulling." Don't get me wrong...I've done it--"been there, done that, bought the T-shirt"--but it always indicates a problem that, in turn, creates new problems when we violate good principle to remedy it.

If you have surplus along that instep to sideseam line, trying to pull it out will distort the boot even further, perhaps making it lean forward excessively.

I've never seen rippling at the sideseam but I have seen looseness around the cone from too much surplus along that imaginary line. And when I have seen that I knew that the boot would never fit the way wanted it to fit.

The only remedy I ever found was to open up the side seam and carefully pare away some of that excess in a controlled taper from the throatline to the insole line...and then resew the sideseam by hand. In fact, it was doing just that in my hour(s) of desperation that led me to the theories and realizations that I outlined in my previous post.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

That's actually very clear. The thoroughness and detail in your description is much appreciated. Sure it will make even more sense one experienced in the first person but I certainly get the just of it. Based on this I'm quite sure it can work as well with boots that are not side seamed.

Rob

DW, If I am not mistaken, Dick Andersons crimp boards come from your design. Is that right? I am finding my vamp blockers are not quit right for these boards. I found where you scaned in your blocker, but it doesn't have measurements. Can you please give me the length and width of your three sizes? Thank you, Shane

Shane,

Yes, I guess some of them do. I think the crimp irons are my design (although not entirely original with me), as well.

I only use one size vamp blocker though, nowadays--it is 13.25" long and 11.5" wide at the corners. If I were still using three sizes that would be the large (to size 13 or 14), the medium would be 12.5" x 11.375" and the small would be 11.75" x 11".

Using one size blocker, I use only one size board. I can have more boards in use because I don't need as many. I have always cut for quality rather than quantity so fitting more blockers into a hide or wasting a tiny bit of leather by cutting a large crimped vamp for a small boot is of little concern to me.

I do the same thing with my full cuts.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, Thank you. I messed around last night and came up with a blocker from my old ones. It is roughly the size of your medium ones. I soaked it up good and put it in plastic. I am planning on crimping it today. I will know a lot more by the end of the day. Shane

Curiosity has gotten the better of me, so I was hoping to get responses on a part of the vamp construction of a cowboy boot.

In making shoes I usually skive and turn the edge of the quarter that gets sewed to the vamp to make a finished edge. I have seen at least two cases where it was suggested that you could perform a neat cut, use a flame to clean up the edge and dye it though. Also just to mention; these were cases where the edge was not gimped, where you would expect this technique to be used.

I was curious what others usually do with cowboy boots where the vamp meets the top. Quite often it looks like the edge is sewn without turning, though sometimes it does look like the vamp edge is skived a little to thin the leather on thicker leathers. I have also seen patterns where a skiving allowance is shown, but this does not seem to be the case on many of the patterns.

If shoemakers want to throw out what they think and use for shoes, that would be great as well since I am curious what people like to use.

Cheers!
Terry

I see many commercial boots and shoes that do not have turned edges. Also, many zipper boots have raw edges at the sipper line.

To me, it's just a matter of how finished you want then final product to look. If it is a rustic style, you might actually prefer a raw edge. But for most of what I make (men's dress shoes) I would not consider it.

Terry,

I'm beginning to think I can at least relate my experiences, if not actually draw conclusions, about both bootmaking and shoemaking...especially in this instance.

When it comes to boots...the vamps are almost universally unfolded. The tongue and the quarters are cut, often given a scant skive, sometime flamed, and occasionally dyed, before the vamps are sewn to the tops. The elaborateness of the tongue and quarter curve...on both the vamps and counter covers...makes it somewhat impractical to fold the edges. That's not to say it can't be done or hasn't been done...but not as a general rule, even among the top shelf makers.

As for shoes, I'm with Rick in that I will always finish the topline...one way or the other. I will fold the edges or add a topline bead...with or without gimping. For instance, the way I make a whole cut--crimping the vamp--it would be near on to impossible to fold that topline edge and have it be graceful especially along the facings. But give it a scant skive and run a topline bead along there and it looks terrific.

The one thing about a topline bead whether with gimping or without, is that it allows you to trim the lining back a little from the edge so that it is not visible from any angle except directly overhead. Folding does that as well but depending on how far from the edge you sew, to a lesser degree. The point is that "finishing" the topline edge is more than just unnecessary refinement...there is a practical reason as well.

That's my story at any rate.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Rick/DW

Thanks for the responses and observations.

I agree with you on the shoes. I have not made a large number yet, but every time I go to make a pair I think about trying an unfinished look and talk myself out of it (even on hiking style shoes) except for the gimped seams.

With boots it does make sense with the complexity.

It also seems to be less obvious that the edge is unfinished on boots. I was trying to determine exactly why this is and could only conclude that it was either the fact that on a shoe that is not of an oxford variety, the seam is exposed to the front and this makes it more visible than if the front overlaps with the top/back. Or that the location of the seam on a boot makes it less obvious. I just know that on a shoe if the edge is unfinished I can usually tell from a distance, where for a boot I have to usually get a closer look.

It makes me wonder how obvious an unfinished vamp edge would be on an oxford, though since those are usually more dressy it seems incredibly wrong to even consider it.

Your comments about a topline bead is interesting. I have considering using a bead on my next pair of shoes rather than folding. I was somewhat debating the proper look on a dress shoe if the topline bead should be of a similar color or a contrasting color to the upper leather.

Terry

Terry,

Your comments about a topline bead is interesting. I have considering using a bead on my next pair of shoes rather than folding. I was somewhat debating the proper look on a dress shoe if the topline bead should be of a similar color or a contrasting color to the upper leather.

I think that's up to you but maybe, just maybe a contrasting topline bead would looks a little more "casual" or "sporty."

Of course, anytime you gimp the topline you'll add a bead but in that case I would almost always use a bead that matches the upper.

I'm still learning so take this with a grain of salt.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I received a special gift from Santa, a factory made pair of lasts (2 pair to be exact)... Santa did have lots of help from Bill (thanks!). I hope everyone else out there had as good a Christmas

I decided since this will be my first pair of shoes not made on a plaster last, and the one part I really hated about my shaping of plaster lasts was the toe, I wanted to make a dress shoe that shows this off.

I decided on a one piece upper. I also wanted to try piping which I have only used moderately in the past.

Unfortunately this provides me with several areas I was not sure exactly how to construct. So I was hoping to find some assistance.

1) at the spot where the vamp is cut and the laces go, what is a good way to finish the piping going into the vamp. I have looked at some of the pictures of the great work posted here that inspired me to try a pair and the pictures do not show this well.

Below is a picture to help ask the question, though it is way out of proportion.

Is it best to cut a square section and run the piping under it? Does round work better; it seams like this would be stronger? Is there a better way to make this part look elegant?



2) If I wanted to put a back strap on the shoe, how is this best performed with the piping.

Here are two methods I thought of

a) over the top of the quarter back and piping



b) over the top of the quarter back but not over the piping


Terry

Terry,

I don't do this that often but here's my take on both problems.:

I looked carefully at whole cut oxfords--Gaziano and Girling, Green, Lobb, Delos, etc.. Very few really had a handle on that vamp point conundrum. and some were downright clumsy in my opinion.

Making whole cut oxford, it is nearly impossible...or at least nearly impossible to imagine...doing anything but piping. Certainly a folded edge would be difficult, to the point where I can't see how it could be done with any finesse, right there at the bottom of the facing. So right up front forget folded edges.

Piping, topline bead whatever you want to call it is pretty easy and there are some things you can do that make it even easier. But it requires some preparation. Along the edge...the full length..that you intend to bead, you need a scant skive.

As far as the termination at the bottom of the facing...here's what I do: I crimp whole cuts and although I don't believe it makes a difference whether you crimp or not I punch a small (2mm?) hole at the vamp end of where the facings will be cut. I then cut the facings and quarters and at the punched hole I cut the facings such that the punched hole blends right into the facing--so that there's a "U" shape formed by the facings and the hole.

When I mount the topline bead, the two sides will actually lie side by side, touching, in that "U" shaped hole.

When I mount the lining I do not cut it along the facing. I mount the vamp on the crimped but uncut lining such that the facings separate up at the top.

When I stitch the topline, I make no attempt to stitch around the hole (the "U" shape) at the bottom of the facing. I simply stitch across, under the hole, forming a tight little box before turning to run up the other facing. I almost don't even care if it is a perfect box because of what comes next.

When I am ready to mount my tongue I do a hand stitch across the bottom of the facing such that it covers and obscures any sewing done by machine. this is by far the neatest and most refined termination for the facing on a whole cut oxford.

As for the backstrap...well, on my navy saddle shoes I did it as you illustrate in figure "b". I think it works and looks good although one of the reasons it looks good is that the backstrap is the same colour as the topline bead.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...hope it helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Thanks for the quick response and all the great suggestions.

I like the word "conundrum" for this! I agree with you that using a topline bead seemed the only way to make the vamp point have that dressy oxford look that I was going for. Thats what drove me to using the topline bead though I had little experience.

The hand stitch is a great idea. I have used that technique on oxfords but it did not even occur to me to use it in this situation. As you point out this looks refined; to me it gives the shoe a look that says bespoke.

I'm glad you mentioned the mounting of the lining. I had planned not cutting the lining at the facing at least until after stitching. I thought this would allow the lining to be adjusted back/forwards and address the orange peel effect if I did not reduce the lining by the exact amount needed.

I had even considered not cutting until after lasting to help keep the facings nicely together during lasting. I have only made a few oxfords, but on one of the pairs, for only one of the shoes, the laces were not perfectly tightened when I lasted the upper and the left and right shoe showed a small but different gap when worn. That really bugged me! The person I made them for did not even notice, but it bugged me immensely.

I however could not determine exactly how I would trim the lining (especially if the tongue is hand stitched to the bottom of the facing) [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Terry

Happy New Year everyone!

I have been researching the shape of crimping boards and the process of crimping.

During this I started wondering about the toe shape of crimping boards. I created a few crude images to try to help ask the question.

The first image shows what looks like a fairly standard crimping board shape and it's use from various pictures I have seen both here and in books. I know that the leather is stretching in multiple directions, so it is not as simple as shown in this picture.

It would seem to me that the area around the toe has the leather stretched during crimping, and then when you get to the lasting process you do not want this excess leather and must un-stretch or compact it.

I was wondering why you do not see more boards like shown in the second image. Am I interpreting something wrong with the pictures I have seen, locations of stretch, or something to do with the stretching of leather to avoid wrinkles in the completed product when in use?



Thanks

Terry
HCC Member

Terry,

It's an interesting issue. I noticed this seeming contradiction too.

The only observation I can make is that the stretching in the crimp area is across a broad area through the instep whereas the toe lasting stretch and compression has always seemed more localized to me.

As such, maybe it's not so important that the toe area is pre-stretched a bit.


Nice illustrations, by the way.

- Rick

Terry,

I did a study of this some years back where I took a piece of leather and ruled out a grid of one inch squares over the whole surface...then I crimped it. I think that you would be surprised by how little stretching or compressing goes on over the toe.

But there is one caveat to that observation: some folks apparently think that crimping is a "pre-stretching" operation. They stretch the vamp as hard as they can in every direction. But, the reality is that crimping need not be so. Its whole purpose is to shape the vamp...period. And, believe it or not, that can, and should, be accomplished with a lot less force than is commonly applied. Parenthetically, if a vamp is stretched to its limits on the board, it won't have much resilience should it need to be stretched while lasting. There is a real risk that the leather can be stressed beyond its natural limits.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Terry,

I'd like to add a little to what DWFII said. Until I spent time with DW, I was always prepared for battle when I was crimping. I learned from DW that I could simply coax and massage the leather to shape. I almost don't use tools for crimping anymore except for a tack hammer for securing tacks. With the use of a little leather dressing, my fingers and a little extra patience I am able to do a much better job than through the use of force. I don't use the crimping iron to pull or shape the leather but only to take up the slack that I've generated by moving the leather around with my fingers.

I certainly don't have the level of experience that all of you have but I get much better results than I used to and I like that.

Warmest Regards to all for the new year.

Your posts definitely broadened my thinking on crimping. I hadn't visualized crimping as "pre-stretching", but I definitely was not picturing as just "coaxing". I like the image of using less force as an ultimate goal!

I missed the post on using the grid, but I just finished reading up on what looked like a re-post and found the idea wonderful.

For others who also did not see this and are listening in: post

I did not think in terms of compression occurring over the instep area as would appear in the grid pictures.

Does the amount of compression effect how much wrinkling occurs on the top of the toe over long periods of use? I have always wondered about the wrinkles that occur over time. I know that some of this is due to the amount of toe spring but I have also wondered about the stretch of leather, lining, reinforcement, etc.

I had visualized an optimal crimping as distributing the stretching as much as possible to minimize the amount of stretch in any one area. However this visual image did not take into account being able to minimize stretching by compression in the instep.

I will have to go through my stock of scrap leather and spend some time with grids. I like the idea of actually seeing exactly what coaxing causes which effect.

Terry
HCC member

Rick,

Small interruption; eating dinner, etc.

I wish there was a way to come up with a standard set of illustration pieces we could use for drawing pictures and post them on this forum someplace.

The ones I used above I created specifically for this purpose using a freeware program called open office; similar to Microsoft's Office package. It has a method of drawing lines, straight, curved, etc. fairly easily.

I like illustrations to help bridge the language barrier. In this case mostly a barrier between someone with little knowledge on the subject, me, and the people I very much appreciate answering the question.

Over time I expect I will develop a set of re-useable illustrations for myself; I already have a small group.

It sure would be nice if there was a standard enough format that was worth uploading the elements here. We could probably do it with JPG or some other image format, though this does not allow for modification later. I believe Scalable Vector Graphics is intended for this purpose but falls way short. I have tried to use SVG before and it often greatly modifies the results. It's possible something like Windows Enhance Metafile format could be used, but I am not sure how many programs can import/export.

The hard part is picking a format that just about any program someone wanted to use the format would be usable.

Terry
HCC member

Terry,

Inkscape, which is a great...free!!...vector illustration program will export any drawing you make into gif or png format. Both of which will load easily onto the forum. I usually use the gif format (although I am exporting from CorelDraw) because I can set the background to transparent and the parchment of the forum will show through where there was white.

And gif is a nearly universal format for illustrations as you're gonna get...every single smilie (even the animated ones)on this or any other forum is in gif format..

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

I will have to try inkscape for my next drawing. I tried a few things and it looks quite feature rich.

Terry
HCC member

While you can create an image to upload to The Colloquy with InkScape (or other programs), you cannot upload the editable SVG file. So, I'm not sure it matters how it was created from a community standpoint.

People tend to use what they are familiar with or what has strengths in particular areas.

I second your desire but it's a tough nut to crack, overall.

Hello all.

I am looking to more or less copy this boot.


Is crimping required, advisable, or unnecessary?

I don't understand how/if the presence and the placement of side seams affect the crimping question.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

I'd say yes, you need to crimp. Looks like basically a full wellington.

When moving from crimping on an easy board to a cruel board, do you completely re-soak the vamp as much as prior to the easy board?