The Crispin Colloquy

I'm not lasting wet, I sprayed the veg tan lining with water but not the chrome upper as I've not seen it make much difference in my, very limited, experience. I think in this instance the shortfall is too great anyway.

The distance from the point of the facings to the feather edge is very short on this pattern, I've moved the opening down from VP by about 20mm (0.75in) in order to make the shoe easier to put on and off. The client (my great-aunt as it happens but we're treating it as a real commission) has very dainty feet but stonking bunions so ease of entry is an issue. Perhaps this explains what you're seeing?

As for the heal I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. The seam is on the inside "quarter", just behind the arch. Are you suggesting adding a small seam, as you might have at the bottom of the heel of a counter, or between quarters, to contract the feather edge and make lasting easier? Or are you saying to modify the present seam line to expand the feather edge thereby curving the heel up?

Thank you all for taking the time to help, it is truly appreciated.

Idris

Idris

I missed that before, but yes you do need a small V seam at the seat with leather of that weight. You can get away with no seam there for pigskin linings but I wouldn't do it with those uppers.

That should allow the heel to slip into the back of the curve and that could release some material to pull over the toe.

Tim

Not sure what went wrong but yes, I suggest you do both, add a small seam in the lasting allowance about at the center of the heel and modify the seam line to "add" more material to the feather edge. I also expect it will be a better fit if you rotate the inside quarter up compared to the outside quarter at the center heel point.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on May 22, 2012)

I have a problem with pattern making + lasting:

1. When I want to sew the upper and lining together it is always hard to flip over the seam allowance at the vamp because ist makes a curve and it builts up a little..
Is it a question of skiving?? WOuld it be better to skive more?

2. my lasting problem:
how do I last the top part of a narrow toe part (in a ladies court shoe) without getting the problem of getting a big bump of upper,lining and toe puff? I usually cut off a lot afterwards with a knive but there is still to much material...
Any advice??

Thanks in advance
Marlene!

Marlene,Yes,skiving the overlapped parts will help and also not putting the seams of the lining and upper in one location,for instance the lining quarters for an Oxford shoe is cut longer than the upper quarter so that when you sew your upper quarter to vamp to lining,the seam of lining quarter+vamp should be below the upper quarter+vamp.
2-To last a cemented shoe is best to last lining first,cut notches(V-shape), glue and last and skive, not too deep close to feather edge, put your cap and skive thin the overlapped material,follow likewise for the upper.

Nasser

Marlene,
I also find it helpful to last the lining first, then last the toe puff, and trim it off at the feather line when dry. Then I last the upper.

Nasser, I like the idea of notching the vamp, especially for heavier or firmer leathers.

Paul

Paul and Nasser
We always notched the vamps and the heels it leaves you with a nice flat surface for your toe and heel.You have to watch that you do not place them too close to the feather edge of the last or you will not have enough left to sew your welt to .you have to remember that by notching you are just removing the part that you cut out anyway .Your heel and toe seat fill be flatter and tighter than you could get normally .My notcher was a sharper angle remember you only have to cut out the thickness of the fold in the leather .Try it you will be surprised how much faster the lasting process Goes.And it doesn't affect the quality of the construction at all, it just saves some time and work .I would be interested in hearing how this works for you .

Larry
www.walrusshoe.com

Marlene, I suggest that you make sure that your lining and toe stiffener have been neatly trimmed and skived. Then work carefully when lasting the upper leather so that the darts are evenly spaced and with the proper space between nails depending on the leather, wide spaces for thick leather, narrow spacing for thin leather. When you've glued this down and pulled your lasting nails you can put another nail into each dart and bend this back towards the middle of the sole flattening the bottom. The next day pull these nails and skive down the upper leather. This takes practice but has worked for me for all kinds of leather.

About the only part of the shoe I notch is the heel stiffener.

I'm with Jon (if I'm reading him correctly)...not that there's anything wrong with notching, it's just that I think it can be finessed a bit.

Of course the lining and the stiffener need to be dealt with separately so that a flat foundation is created, but after that it is a simple matter of creating evenly spaced pipes.

If your tacks or nails are set back away from the featherline some, it will be possible to use the pane of a polished shoemaker's hammer to drive the base of the pipes further inward. Which can then be tacked or nailed as Jon suggested.

The pipes can be driven sometimes as much as a half inch...creating a comparable margin of flat leather around the heel seat.

If you are lasting wet or have spritzed this area, when it all dries that flat margin will remain stable as you pull the tacks. Especially if, as I do, you glue or cement the counter(counter cover)leather to the underlying heel stiffener and lining.

The flat margin can be further accentuated by using a half-inch wide wiping strip around the heel seat.

Most of what remains of the pipes is usually trimmed away or the pipe itself may be skived/shaved off. This effectively creates a "notch" or dart but it is far shorter...sometimes less than an eighth of an inch in length...than if the leather is notched beforehand. What's more the edges of the dart butt up against each other so closely that they are almost invisible.

In the toe area, a wiping strip...even (as I've taken to using) a stout, round shoelace...can make notching or even skiving pipes entirely unnecessary as all the excess will be trimmed off flush with the welt.

Not saying one way is better than the other...just another way of doing it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

DW,
"The flat margin can be further accentuated by using a half-inch wide wiping strip around the heel seat."

I have not tried that method yet but I have seen other using it with a good result at the toe area. Maybe it works as good at the heel area too.
Anyway I am doing it with another technique.
The first photo shows how I last lining, heel stiffener, and two layers of upper leather in one go. This is a riding boot thats why it is an extra layer of upper leather. The stiffener is a heavy shoulder of 6 mm and is skived down to half thickness in the lasting allowance.
The second photo show how I use an hot heel iron to iron down the lasted heel seat. The iron should sizzle and can be done a couple of hours after lasting when the Hirchkleber is about to harden and.
The third photo shows the result when done.

Very nice Janne. The magic of leather in a skilled hand.

Ps the good thing with using this method is that the heel seat will be intact no leather will be needed to grind away. I just scrape the surface of the upper leather about an half inch with the knife and then cement and put the sole on.
Janne Melkersson

Pretty!

Do you have to keep the iron moving in order to avoid burning leather, or is it not a problem at sizzling temperature?

Regards,
-Nat

Jon,Nat thanks for the compliment!

Nat, I am glad you asked because I forget to mention that there is a risk you burn the leather if not moving the iron around the heel seat all the time.

Thank you all, especially Nasser so much! Your professional advice helps me so much!!

Here another problem / question concerning the topline of the pattern and in the final shoe..:

I usually get a nice topline on the last by cutting of the extra tape (picture).Normaly I take off the tape from the last,put it on cardboard and I then add a lasting allowance on the bottom but also a sewing allowance at the top. I prefer a closed seam for the upper and the lining, therefore I skive in both the seaming allowance, flip the leather over, put some glue under the allowance and do the closing between upper and lining.

My problem: when my topline on the last was nice and perfect, once I am at the point of creating the closed seam by fliping over the edge I don´t know exactly how much I have to flip over and after I have completed the closed seam, my topline doesnt look like the one on the seam...

How do you make sure to flip over enough of the seaming allowance of not too much of it so that the defined topline stays the same?? Any suggestions??

thank you all so much!! you are magnificant with showing all these illustrating pics, nit helps so much!!!

XXX
Marlene

This is a picture of m y latest pattern:

but also a sewing allowance at the top. I prefer a closed seam for the upper and the lining, therefore I skive in both the seaming allowance, flip the leather over, put some glue under the allowance and do the closing between upper and lining.

Marlene, you lost me there,explain by words or photo,"closed seam for the upper and lining" is it the back seam? are you sewing both upper and lining back seam togather in one go? In general,Obtaining correct patterns from the taped forme/last is not always easy especially for higher heel shoes/boots
The taped frome from the last is not %100 correct,it changed a little when you took off from last and put on cardboard,most effected areas are back line and toe line which will result in loose top line,learn to use the geometric system to place your taped forme to make further reductions or negotiations/manipulations to it from 2D to 3D in mind.

Nasser

i mark all my seams with silver pen so that i know exactly were my stitching lines are how much to skive away and were to turn and glue if im reinforcing the seam by tacking down the seam alowences. if your using top line tape you can place it carefully and use its edges as the guide for sewing. all the tricks i use for closing are just the same as you would use for sewing any thing a shirt pants jacket it all the same kind of technique. learning to be vary precise in stitching is the best thing any one can do to make good seams sew slowly and acurityly on inside seams i use smaller stitches so my pace is slower. top stitching is something one has to practice there are many many guides and techniques for learning to do this well. pick up any sewing book and it will have practical tips for top stitching doesn't matter if its a shoe or a coat its all the same

What is the name of this closure? Specifically; where the facings meet the vamp at the front.


-Nat

Nat, I think its a galosh?

In the sneaker world it is known as a 'lace-to-toe'. The toe cap/mudguard overlay is a variation but I still believe the name apples here.

If this is a Golosh, (which I think you're correct) then what's it called when there's also a quarter seam?
If I'm not mistaken: one of the defining characteristics of a Golosh = 1 piece vamp from toe to heel.

-Nat

Same closure in the front, but vamp doesn't extend to the heel. Instead it's seamed, like this:



Is there a specific name for this closure, or is it a hybrid of some kind?

-Nat

(Message edited by Kemosabi on June 15, 2012)

Greetings all,
I need a little help from you.
still not very good in designing models for shoes and often make mistakes evaluation.
So it was with this pair of sandals that I did:
As you can see from the photos the sandal I am not quite cover the foot at the toe, which makes it uncomfortable.

I would like to redo them because I needed a pair of sandals and I promised myself that I'd never bought a pair of shoes once i learn to make them!

This is the redesigned model to solve the problem to toe:
I would like to hear from you if this time is correct and does not create problems in the fingers.

I would also have a second question about making the sandals but it concerns the phase lasting.

how do I know that I'm not pulling too much leather with pliers to avoid then the shape of the sandal is not deformed? I refer to the lateral areas of the foot.

I draw the line to take on the last?

thank you very much for your help and sorry if I do such basic questions but I know of no shoemaker who could help me.

greetings and again thanks
simon

Simone

That pattern looks better than what you had I think. The throat looks to be better placed. the sides may be a bit low, but it should be ok.

Leave your linings untrimmed in the throat area, you can make your initial pulls and when you pull the back down, before you start pulling the sides, just tack the lining to the last.

Then carry on lasting as normal and trim the lining later.

Tim

I made a pair of chukka boots for a friend and as you can probably tell from the picture, they didn't fit. Instead of being looser around the ankle, they dig in at the top. Luckily he's a very patient guy, and this is all part of learning.
Since the same thing happened on both boots I figured that this was a pattern issue and not a lasting issue. My leading hypothesis is that I made the back piece too much of a "U" shape and that if I straighten that out it would add length? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.