The Crispin Colloquy

Jake, I think Frank Jones Practical pattern cutting is just a revised edition of that book? You can order that from Walrus I think.

Tim Skyrmes book has instructions for pattern making too.

Courtney

Jake/Courtney,

Though both these are excellent, and I now Frank's is very comprehensive and as to a book dedicated to pattern making a must have, neither have a jodhpur pattern. So if you are looking for that specifically relative to the other posts on this site, the only book I have seen was the one DW mentions above. I am lucky enough to own a copy of the Modern Pattern Cutting, but since my copy was published in the 1960's it is a long ways away from being something I could PDF and post.

Terry

Hi guys,
George Koleff's wonderful book 'Shoe and Boot Design Manual' has Jodphur boot pattern's in it. People that ride horses usually refer to them as jodphur boots. The Aussies call them elastic sised boots and Brits or townies will call them chelsea boots ala the Beatles.

Thanks Everyone! I believe I have enough to go on now.

Much appreciated!

Jake

Yes, as I understand it "Pattern Cutting Step-by-Step patterns for footwear" edited and revised by Frank Jones is the most current version of Patrick's tradition of patternmaking. I use both extensively. Though the books feature a few different patterns, they adhere to the same tradition of pattern making. But I must point out that Frank's book is far easier to follow with very detailed instructions, guidance, and even warnings of common pattern making pitfalls, which were lacking in Patrick's book.
I have several copies of "Pattern Cutting" for use with my classes at F.I.T. and am offering them (new) at an introductory price at this time.
Private email me for more information.
David

I have a scan of the Patrick book. It's hi-res, pdf format. About 10.5 MB when zipped. If anyone is interested, let me know.

David,

You may have some information that I don't have but as I say I've have both of Frank's editions and the Patrick book. I see the similarities, certainly, but I see similarities between Golding and Patrick and Thornton and Patrick...it's all a continuum.

Maybe Frank will weigh in on this and let us know if his Pattern Cutting is a re-write of Patrick.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Jake,

You might want to look aty Koleff's book if you're set on a geometric method. Patrick begins by making a "mean forme" and then adds a little geometry on top of that. But it is not, at heart, a geometric method for generating patterns.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

We'll do....Thanks once again!

Jake

DW, I don't think I have any information you don't. We are in agreement. I was pointing out the similarity in the pattern making tradition presented by Frank Jones and Patrick, and as you say the continuum from earlier books - Thornton, Golding (both those author's work I would likely never have read without your devotion to scan and post here, thanks). My first pattern making was by deciphering of Patrick's book and he expected a basic vocabulary/understanding from the reader. Not an easy task for the newbie. But for a newbie Frank's book is much easier to follow and once the reader gets the basics of copying the last (surface) or deriving a mean forme, more technical trade oriented books become easier to understand. Including geometric methods. Throw in good visualization (maybe a little xray vision)of style lines and assembly order you got the basics for good patternmaking. Even on never before tried patterns.
respectfully,
David

I got my copy of Patrick from www.bookfinder.com maybe 10 years ago.

David,

My apologies...I misunderstood...I thought you were saying that Frank's book was a re-write of Patrick the way that Korn is a re-write of Golding.

I have to agree with you, the first patterning book I really looked at was Patrick...oh, years and years ago...and I decided, right then and there, I needed to stick to bootmaking.

Frank's book really opened my eyes. And then I went back and looked at Golding more closely and Thornton and Patrick. And suddenly it made more sense.

I wish Frank's book contained more standards. I suppose a really good shoemaker doesn't need that kind of hand holding but as you suggest, a person needs something...experience?...as background, so to speak, before you feel comfortable conjuring styles out of mid air. Patrick gave me the jodhpur. I would have thrown away a lot of "trials", otherwise.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

There has been some discussion about the relationship or link between H.J. Patrick’s - Modern Pattern Cutting and Design and the book that carries my name. The original Pattern Cutter’s Handbook started out as a selection of course notes, we used at Accrington and Rossendale College, where I worked from December 1983 until January 1996.

Late in 1989 we started to run two week intensive Pattern Cutting courses which attracted people from all over the UK, as well as overseas. Each course member went home with detailed printed notes for five or six different styles of footwear.

To produce these notes I scoured everything that was available. This included all the usual culprits such as Swaysland, Golding, Plucknett, Thornton and Patrick but there was also other stuff from Satra, BBSI Journal, and the work we had been doing at the College to produce Open Learning modules for the industry nationally. I quickly came to the conclusion that most of the above was written for students of footwear who were attending extensive courses at the twenty plus colleges in the UK teaching shoemaking.

We wanted something that would be easier to grasp for somebody without the support of a college tutor. Having tried hard to identify what exactly needed to be different, I came to the conclusion that pattern cutting was actually all about the shapes of parts of the upper. This, like most useful ideas, was screamingly obvious!

I decided that anything we produced had to have more space for illustrations than for words. Using the rough teaching notes from our pattern specialist - Michael Sharpe, I produced a story board-type of draft notes which included detailed references to the illustrations needed. Then the hard work started to produce really good illustrations, all done by hand because at this stage we had limited computer support. The end result was quite good but was only intended as notes to take away at the end of an intensive two week course.

Have to break off for now, so to be continued ......

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

Episode two

Then we started to get people asking if they could buy a copy of our pattern cutting notes. I was not prepared to do this because the notes were written as an extra for people who had the benefit of attending our course. Without that, the notes would be of limited value.

Then came the obvious idea to expand the notes into a full-blown pattern cutting textbook. This took two years but the result was the Pattern Cutter’s Handbook. This was well before the availability of small print runs and there was no budget to print 1000 copies, even assuming they would sell. So we scraped together the funds to get fifty of the original grey covers printed on glossy card and produced the internal pages on the college photocopier. These were put together using plastic comb binders.

To our delight, these fifty all sold in less than three months and generated enough income to pay for the first 1000 copy printed production. The was reprinted in 1992 and a revised version (mainly with better quality illustrations) was printed in 1994. When the new book was produced in 2006, we increased the number of chapters and in particular added three extra styles of footwear as well as a large number of new and improved illustrations.

Assuming I have not sent everybody to sleep, back to the questions raised above.

Like all things in boot and shoemaking, we all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. Having said that putting a new book in print should always try to bring a little more to the table. This can be new material but if it is easier to grasp than what went before, I would argue that is an improvement. My aim was to do both. For example, nobody before or since, as far as I know has included details of patterns for Training Shoes or Basketball Boots, as well as lots more illustrations and stuff about how to spring patterns in great detail.

So were either books based on Patrick, well as the most recent pattern book I had to hand, it was influential, mainly because it was, in my opinion, the best pattern cutting book available then.

So, there is nothing on Jodhpur Boots or English Riding Boots. The problem was partly about where to stop - Ski boots, Ballet shoe, Thigh boots, etc. But the truth is decisions have to be made and I thought we had the right priorities at the time.

Suggestions, corrections, and new ideas are always welcomed. They will be filed for when the current print run is soon to be exhausted and modifications can be considered.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

Dw,
No apology necessary. I understand, and I also know I was slightly off subject in skirting the issue of Jodphur boot patterns in Patrick, but not in Jones' book. But wished to stress the relationship of that tradition, and ease of following Frank's book first.
I also look at other pattern making methods, and even though usually the last is primary (a little paraphrasing) there are some quite disparate traditions around. I remember reading more than one of your posts warning against mixing methods, and hope anyone reading this thread heeds that warning.

Frank,
Thanks so much for your detailed description of the evolution of writing/publishing "Pattern Cutting Step-by-Step patterns for footwear". As much as you and I have talked, this narrative reveals even more of your approach than I understood. I favor this book as a modern day guide into a fringe technology (in the 19th c. shoemaking was, in it's day, high industrial technology). Today we shoe/boot enthusiasts strive to recapture, find and maybe even reinvent shoemaking technology using some modern materials (since some old materials are near impossible to find) to preserve and more importantly advance our precious gentle craft in today's modern world.
Your description above is in keeping with these principals.

I'm looking for some help with a wholecut pattern.

I'm trying to make a ladies shoe, somewhat like a court shoe but with an entry to make it easier to put on and off and I'm having terrible trouble getting the pattern right, I always end up with too little lasting margin on the toe and baggyness across the top of the joints.

To make the pattern I tape up the last, draw my pattern on then cut the seam on the inside arch and up the front and flatten. I then place the formes onto paper with the instep cut aligned allowing the points at the toe to overlap. Then I draw around the whole thing and cut out, transfer to new paper and add allowances.

I've tried this twice now and after the first try failed when I tried to last I took the completed pattern, cut up the toe centreline almost to the top, opened it up about an inch at the point and taped a scrap in. This helped but I still was left with very little margin for lasting and still had the baggyness over the joints.

Here is a picture of the pattern and one of the second practice shoe.

Any help would be much appreciated, this is my first commission and I have to get it spot on.

Idris

Idris im no exspert but i would think you are not stretching the leather enough at the toe. when you are lasting tough this is not a true hole cut the point in lasting a hole cute is controlling the stretch and compacting the leather in all the right spots to eliminate the fullness that ocres on ether side of the joint and on the backs of the heal. Lesa Sorrel says to cut the edges with a wavy pattern this add surface's area and aides in lasting a smoth upper. iv not tried this she has a video on Youtube showing how she brakes the upper toe for a boot maybe this is not the same but i would try it.

Idris,

Have you tried lasting the shoe "seats up"? This might allow a draft that is "closer to the wood" in the forepart and the wrinkles in the joint may pull out as the heel is hoisted.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

When you say "Seats up" do you mean to roughly last the toe with the topline raised at the back half an inch or so up the last from where it will end up and then pull it down once the first few nails are in the toe? If so I do that as a matter of course to put tension in the top line.


It may be that the baggyness (not exactly wrinkles rather, as you suggest, that the upper is away from the last) in the joint is caused by pulling too hard on the toe when trying to get sufficient leather onto the insole to glue. I allowed 0.75in lasting allowance on the pattern but I've got less than 0.5in on the insole at the tip of the toe and that's after pulling pretty hard. If that is the case I can modify my patterns and hopefully the problem will be solved but I would like to avoid having this problem in the future if anyone can suggest how?

Thanks

Idris

That's the idea but I generally take the joint drafts at the same time.

I allow one inch lasting allowance. I'd rather toss a few thin scraps that the whole shoe. Most of the modern pattern books are aimed at manufacturing anyway, and they want to cut as close to tolerances as possible.

Unfortunately I don't make women's shoes so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Idris:

I'm not surprised about the lack of toe lasting allowance. If the pattern is cut from the tape, remember that in the finished shoe you have a lining that, in effect, lengthens the last relative to the upper. If the lining is 2 oz, you have that at the heel and the toe, plus some additional thickness for the toe puff at the front, and then you have the thickness of the insole, so it's no surprise you have less than 1/2" of lasting margin on the finished upper.

In terms of the bagginess, is your upper somehow laced or otherwise stitched across the facings? (I see the gray underneath in this area but don't know if this is the lining or a build-up). If the upper isn't somehow laced, I don't see how you will get it tight to the wood, as the upper will open up when you pull down at the sides.

The challenge with a whole-cut is the drum-head effect you get when there is a hollow in the last between the toe and the facings. Clearly, the tighter you pull the toe, the more difficult it will be to get the leather to the wood in the hollow. So, yes, perhaps a bit less length-wise tension will help.

Lance

I guess I was a bit mean with the lasting allowance, you make a good point that it's better to trim a small scrap off than to scrap a whole upper because you can't last it, I'll remember that.

It's not clear from the picture and I should have explained, the facings are taped together with topline tape sewn in when the lining was closed to the upper.

Back to the pattern for me then I guess. I'll add a bit to the length of the toe and increase my lasting margin and try again.

Thank you all kindly for your help.

Idris

Are you lasting with the leather dampened?

Idris

It looks from your paper pattern that you have not added enough lasting allowance. The area from the front of your opening to the feather edge looks too short, so the theory that you are pulling too much forward would hold true and that could be part of the problem.

You shouldn't have to wet, and your .75 inch lasting allowance should be fine, but somehow it seems to have got lost at the toe.

Tim

Idis,

Looking at your pictures I think your problem is caused by the heel, the upper does not conform well around the heel and without a back seam you can not get the tension in the upper and lower part of the heel evened out, there is too much material and no tension on the top line to draw the leather to the hollow areas on your last.

It looks to me that the pattern in the heel area is too straight, I would expect to see it curve "up" and your inside seam line looks like it will line up perfectly laying flat. You should try adding "spring" in that seam to account for the additional volume at the bottom of the heel. A seam in your lasting allowance will help you last a whole lot easier and help the fit as well.

Lasting "seats up" as DW suggests will help getting it on right. 0.75 inch lasting allowance should be fine IF you make the last copy with the insole on the last, if not allow for the extra thickness of the insole.

Good luck getting it done, nice looking shoe.

Rob