The Crispin Colloquy

Courtney,

Tim said it right, in the picture below you would place the folded edge in line with the top edge of the vamp and trace the inside and outside lines onto it. This pattern is different then the apron type shoe that you want to make but it illustrates how to make inside and outside patterns from the same forme.

Since you are talking about apron shoes,i like to share with you this invention of shoemaker Teofil Luzenski of Berlin Wisconsin from1914,(Victory to the brave people of Wisconsin).

"The invention contemplates the formation of a seam by overlapping the edge of the vamp by means of the edge of the upper(apron) and stitching through the two thicknesses of the upper and the edge of the vamp therebetween so that the line of meeting of the two pieces of leather is protected by the overlapping edge of the upper(apron)".

The invention/technique was intended as an improvement to Moccasin of 1914, As far as i know all apron shoes are derived form the moccasin.

Nasser

Thanks Tim and Jon,

Would you use tracing paper then?

It looks like if you folded a piece of paper to the straight line of the vamp you would not get the area of the vamp below the quarters?

Jon, I am not sure exactly how you got to the picture you posted,

You taped the last, drew your pattern on the tape, cut the forms, made a mean forme, and then traced the pieces from your formes onto that?

I actually used a piece of slotted paper to get the apron shape off my taped lasts before I read these posts, seems like it will work.

I made some modifications to my lasts before I started working on these patterns and I keep wondering if I could get away with modifying my old patterns. I think its probably a bad idea, but it sure is a hassle starting from scratch every time. someday I'll hopefully get this all dialed in and then I'm gonna be cooking.

I really respect you guys who do this for real, I've been trying to fit myself for about 2 years now and its still not right. Each pair was kind of like a new customer though because each time I found out some new problem I've got.

Courtney

Bristol board. Score it with an awl, using a straight edge and fold along this line.

You are correct in describing how I got to this pattern.

As for modifying patterns, it may seem like a chore to make new ones, but every time you make a new pattern you will learn something and get a little faster, it is time well spent.

Thanks again Jon,

I'm now risking coming off a little slow maybe, but.

How can you trace through bristol board? the only thing I can think of is doing a heavy pencil outline on your pieces and then rubbing the backside of the paper and maybe it will transfer?

Also, I dont see how you can get the full vamp pattern with the folded paper,I guess you could cut it where the vamp meets the facings?

It's hard using words to ask visual questions.

Courtney

Jon,

What I don't understand is why or how you altered the patterns for each side...or even, for a certainty, which side is which.

For instance, what tells you to make the inside curve of the toe cap wider for one side than the other? And how much? And if you do that, won't the inside curves be different?

And why and how much to alter the quarter curve?

Finally, why is it necessary? Can't you control the placement and even the shape of the quarters or the inside curve of the toe cap by how the shoe is lasted?

Like Courtney, I admire your work and wish I had the insights that seem to come so easily to you.

Perhaps a presentation at AGM on the ins and outs of pattern-making?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

It depends on the style and the last. Some lasts are more symmetrical than others, and the same goes for some patterns.

With this pattern and last combination, in order for the lines to appear in the same as well as "right" place on each side it required an adjustment, otherwise the line where the quarters meet the vamp would ride high on the outside or low on the inside (or worse yet, both) the same is true for the toe cap. The higher lines are the inside lines, as for how much, it's all subjective.

This toe cap is an example of a pattern made asymmetrical in order to look symmetrical. I can't see making up this difference during lasting.

I'm hoping Courtney is finding this information transferable to his project. In the next couple of months I have a project to make a lakes and apron type shoe and I'll be relying on some of the information that Janne has posted on the subject.

Thanks for your compliments. If some thing seems to come easy to me, I assure you I work hard to achieve these results, but thanks.

Courtney, cut through the pattern along the lines, leaving uncut spaces so that the pattern will hold together, then use an awl, or fine leaded pencil and transfer through to the pattern paper.

I don't have the writing skills to tell you how to manipulate your pattern where it begins to rise at the base of the tongue except to say you need to lower it a bit and mark it, repeating this process until you've reached the top of the tongue/apron piece. Then make test upper, then repeat the whole thing again, and again and try to learn something every time until you become comfortable with the process.

That's a record, my longest post ever.

thanks again Jon,

the cut lines is the answer I was looking for.

I didnt mean how to spring the tounge down, I just meant if you folded a piece of paper and layed it along the straight edge of the vamp you wouldnt get the wings of the toe cap or the part of the vamp under the quarters unless you cut like a"L" in the paper.

Yes, I'm finding all of this very helpfull. thanks.

Courtney

DW
"What I don't understand is why or how you altered the patterns for each side...or even, for a certainty, which side is which."

I am not sure if I understood your question to Jon or if you already got it answered so if I out in the blue please forgive me. In most cases on bespoke shoes I use the lateral side of the left last when making a pattern (habbit only) even though the medial side is mostly a coupple of millimetre or even longer. But when the inside gets much longer you can not compensate that by lasting techniques only. The upper will not fit right either will the back seam or the facing end up of track. I seldom cpmpesate for the toe cap though but for a lake you will need to copy the medial side too.

Jon,
I am glad to hear my posting about the Derby lake shoe could be helpful. Please ask if there is something you think I could assist with

Janne

DW,
I reread my posting and I saw I was not clear. What I tried to say is that I agree with Jon that somtimes you will need to make the pattern as Jon showed us on his photo. Actually, that is the way to it "by the book" for every pair. However many bespoke makers, including me, have found that minor differences regarding asymmetricality could be compensated by using the lasting pincer. Sometimes this is a bad habbit because the pincer will not fix everything.

The tricky question is the one you asked;

"For instance, what tells you to make the inside curve of the toe cap wider for one side than the other? And how much? And if you do that, won't the inside curves be different?"

I am afraid there's no formula for that, it is one of those "trial and error" things we have to learn. But the proportions on Jons patterns seem to be "right" för a normal bespoke last but in the orthopeadic trade the difference on the medial/lateral side could be way more.

Hopefully this posting where more understandable


Janne

Athan

You can use a glass cutter to transfer lines through from one side to another. If your patterns are complicated then the slotting idea can cause problems I found.

Tim

Tim, I know your response was intended for me, Thanks.

Thats brilliant. I know in your book it says you can use the glass cutter but I didnt really get it.

Hope you werent effected by the floods much, that looked pretty horrible.

Courtney

Sorry Courtney

I wasn't thinking, yes, it was for you. The little wheel on the glass cutter doesn't damage your paper patterns too much and can work through light cardboard too.

Where I live was spared the worst of the flooding, thanks.

Tim

I'd like to try a true moc construction version of a chukka or balmoral, does anyone have any sources of learning - i.e., books, videos etc of this type of pattern? An actual flat pattern would be the best.

The main part that is tricky is the vamp, as I can't really see the underside of it when I view shoes in the store. After that, I can use knowledge from Pattern Cutting as it's the same as the respective boot style.

I had thought one of Koleff's books talked about moc construction, but I am not sure how in-depth or what kind, I am awaiting a response from a seller of this book to see exactly what it's about.

Hi;

I've been following this thread for some time, even going back into the archived conversations because I am interested in how you guys design your shoes. I'm wondering if this You-Tube Video by "skomark1" is helpful to the discussion .... it sure has helped me in trying to understand what you folks are talking about - I still haven't figured out what medial and lateral are, but I'll get there <|;^)

There are 10 videos total in a series on how to make patterns from a last. This link is number 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwBaOQJULtw&feature=related

I am still looking for a source of learning about true-moc patterning. Here is an image I found of the underside of a vamp...perhaps enough detail to draft a pattern while not completely stumbling around in the dark.

http://www.feitdirect.com/blog/2010/05/in-production-hand-sewing-the-moc-mid/
http://www.feitdirect.com/blog/2010/05/in-production-hand-sewing-the-moc-mid/

(Message edited by producthaus on March 16, 2011)

Nick,

Frank Jones revised Pattern Cutting step by step has instructions for making moccasins.

Courtney

I am looking for cap toe and wing tip medallion style perforation patterns. I would appreciate sample patterns for mens dress shoes.

Ruben,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy.

Of course eventually you may want to design your own but several good sources to get idea are;

Handmade Shoes for Men, Lazlo Vass(?) I believe you can buy this book on Amazon.

Also go here

And here

Plenty of shoes and designs to look at.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Hi Ruben,

I'm fond of making these patterns myself, usually based on those I see on various shoes.

I posted one here: http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1545

Given current reasonably obtainable materials...

What material would be best for making PERMANANT TEMPLATES for often used patterns?

I have read Nickle. And I know some here have used formica. But both seem to have good and bad characteristics. The Nickle sheeting would dull the blade quickly but remain true...and the formica can be 'trimmed' out over time, changing the basic lines of the template, but save the blade.

What are you using now for oft used templates?



Shane

Shane,

Zinc sheeting works great. It is soft enough to cut with a clicking knife (if you are determined) without markedly dulling the blade or you can use a jeweler's saw or a coping saw. And yet firm enough to prevent casually "trimming" the edge of the pattern.

Formica works great...it's about the same as the zinc as far as "trimming out" is concerned--that's just something you have to learn: cutting leather without cutting the template. But if you sand formica it releases a toxic gas. The zinc won't do that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Hi Shane,

Jeff Mosby at Grey Ghost Graphics laser cuts plastic of some kind that makes good templates, and of course Heather Kinnick at Texas Custom Dies can make hammer dies or clicker dies for darned near anything.

Art

How does someone obtain a copy of Patrick's Modern Patternmaking and Design?

Thanks in advance!

Jake,

First, my mistake, it's actually Modern Pattern Cutting and Design by H.J. Patrick.

I don't know where you'd find or get a copy. It's out of print and highly regarded. I missed a copy on Ebay last year because I was out of town. The final bid was double what I had thought to pay and I bid high thinking I would surely get it.

All I've got is p-copy...and not a very good one at that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]