The Crispin Colloquy

Janne,

Yeah, that's what I do too...I was at a loss to explain how to do it, though. It's essentially the same thing as a "jump stitch" as done on the patcher but easier to close curved edges.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
I glad to know my posting maked sence, I wasn't sure about that.

Janne

I was wondering if someone could post a picture or elude to the making of a whole-cut pattern. I am looking at an oxford pattern I made (where the faces cross the crease-line) and I don't understand how a whole-cut makes room for facings and folding allowances.

Nick,

It can be done as a flat vamp pattern but I crimp the vamps/shoe.

Either way I think it would be difficult if not impossible to fold the facings. You're pretty much stuck with bead.

What I did for my first pair...which not only turned out successful but I'm still wearing...is layout the "standard" and make a crimping board the same size and shape. Well, I take that back--I made the board somewhat bigger but the "centerline" was the same. No, I lie...I actually made the angle between the facings/instep and the vamp on the board a little smaller than the standard was(decreasing the number of degrees between the vamp and the facing lines). The idea is to have a bit more "spring" in the vamp/instep so that after the blockers come off the board and begin to relax, the angle can slip a little and still be the same as on the standard.

Then make a pattern for the "blocker"... a little like a big "U". Don't cut for the facings. Make the pattern bigger than the standard.

Crimp.

When the blocker is dry and off the board, fold it along the center fold and mark a centerline.

Add seam allowances and the standard/now pattern free and use it a a cutting pattern. Align the pattern on the blocker with the centerline. Cut each side separately. The facing edge(s? are cut free last thing.

Close and line.

Just one way of doing it but so easy I generally line all oxfords with a whole cut lining.

Hope that helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks DW.

As mentioned in the Lasting forum, I had trouble with the heel, in part because I had the lining seam and upper seam right on top of each other. In the shoe below, you can see a bulge at the heel in the back where the seams are bunching up...how would I make a pattern that moves the lining seam to the side?

As drawn below, there is now an excess of material at the counter point of heel, so not sure how to deal with this issue?

Nick,
I use the same pattern for the lining as for the upper on one piece shoes with one change. I add about 1" on the out side and take away the same amount on the inside. Doing this the seam will not end up on top of each other.

Nick

Mark your lining as usual, in 2mm at the top, and rule a line straight from there to about half way down to a mark placed in 5mm from the upper, so you can start to fit a stiffener in. Rule a straight line between these two marks,this is your fold line.

Now draw in a curve from the lower mark to a point 7mm in from the bottom of the upper. Add a 2mm allowance starting from the bottom and tapering to nothing at the top of the vee, don't make the seam allowance go all the way to the top or you will have a lump.

When you have cut out your lining, fold the two open edges of the vee together and sew from the bottom to the top of the vee. Rub the seam down and you should be right.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Thanks, Janne. I think this new image is the correct way to pivot the lines, with +1" on the outside and -1" on the inside. It was a little misleading to show the pattern as a regular quarter, when, as you mention, it will look the same as the whoe cut upper.


Tim - thanks, I will try this 'vee' technique on the next pair of oxford or derby.

Nick,

I'm not sure I understand entirely what you're wanting, but if you simply want to move the seam from center back to the, say, medial, side, I don't believe either of those patterns will work--not for lining nor for quarters.

The most important thing is that the topline be continued with no break and no additional material being added. On the last pair of shoes I posted in the Gallery, I used a side seam for the quarters. One of a number of pair I have done like that.

Fundamentally, the pattern has to be designed such that the line from the topline towards the featherline at the back of the heel, is straight...not curve the way the last and the formes are. That straightline then becomes a fold line and the wrap-around part of the medial side is designed as an addition to the lateral pattern.

Does that make sense?

If it is the lining the same concepts apply but of course you must design to make enough room for a heel stiffener. Making room is ordinarily done on the standard by making the curve at the back of the heel on the quarter pattern stand away from the curve on the form and the liner is done such that the curve is inside the forme curve.

If you replace these curves with a straight line, again you must respect both the length and the angle of the topline first and foremost.

Sure it will be harder to last the quarter or the liner around the heel--you'll have excess that you wouldn't have with a centered seam that curves to match the last. But if you keep all that excess down by the insole and featherline it is easy to last out.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Nick,

If you followed the above let me add one other tip--if you feel like you just have to have a fitted heel/counter...either for the liner or for the upper...you can create a bit of a curve at the bottom by altering the pattern along these lines:

oops...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on December 21, 2010)

Try again...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Gotcha, that is what Tim was also describing, right?

Here is a better picture for a whole cut lining, with +/- 1" as Janne described. Is this the correct fold line?

Nick

Yes, the image DW put there is exactly what I meant.

I am not sure about the whole cut lining pattern, the seams are straight and the back of your last isn't. It would be better to use a counter lining like DW's, overlapping the lining for the front of the shoe. 1" is more overlap than I would use, 10mm is enough. And skive the lining where it overlaps/underlays.

Tim

Nick,

There are several other way to solve the back seam bulge problem as well...

A moist, reasonably thick, veg-tan heel counter will allow you to hammer the seam so it sinks into the thickness of the counter. Make sure your seam has been trimmed as close as possible and then you can soften the jutting raw edges by scraping with a knife.

You can eliminate the seam all together using a backstrap approach (left) and/or minimize the seam with a larger back foxing (right).

In the middle example, the bulge is eliminated by skiving the ends before sewing, then folding back the edges, adding reinforcing tape on the inside and sewing up either side. There is a name for this kind of seam but I don't remember it off hand.

Rick,

I like the middle method, I will try this. Does this picture look about right? Red lines are stitching.

EDIT: The tape should be between the lining and upper, sorry.


(Message edited by producthaus on December 21, 2010)

Nick,

Close. Do the outer and the lining separately. Or just do the outer. The lining bulk is usually much less.

Nick,

I happen to have a series of photos that show this pretty well..





and a bonus,,, off centered liner heel.

I am having a hard time figuring out how to make patterns for a vamp with an apron.

In the past I've measured up the side of the wall of the last following the wall exactly.

This works but makes a very asymmetrical pattern.

Jan-Erick Melkersson posted some shoes in pattern making 825-850 that show a pretty symmetrical plug but you can see the outside of the shoe on the lateral side does not follow that shape.

I have seen this on alot of shoes but dont know how to do it.

Do you just ignore the shape of the last on concentrate on making a symmetrical apron?

I know Rick Roman made those kind of shoes before but couldnt find a pic.

I have my lasts taped up right now but dont want to do this wrong.

I need to make these pretty quick for a wedding.

Any help so much appreciated!

Courtney

Just draw your pattern on the last and when you are happy with it cut it out. You may need to shorten the sides and toe of the plug by 2mm so it doesn't stretch out over the edge of the wall during lasting.

You can make it any shape you want really. Away from the toe you probably don't need to follow the shape of the last if you don't want to.

Tim

Courtney:

When I did my apron derby, I did a symmetrical plug by using a folded sheet of paper and cutting through the two sheets, then transferred the unfolded shape to the taped last when I was happy with how I thought it would look. I then cut the pieces off the last after I transferred/traced the plug's shape.

Don't forget to add a bit of sewing margin to the apron and the vamp (depending on how you're going to sew them together).

My shoes are in the gallery archive #426 - 450.

Lance

Thanks so much Tim and Lance!

So, when you do this kind of stuff, I guess cutting the pattern pieces directly from the last is more common than drafting them on a standard?

Lance, did you pretty much just ignore the outside of the shoe?

I would still love to hear anyone else's input.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney:

I generally draft off of the formes (though not a standard, I keep and use the inside and outside formes separate), rather than right on the taped last, since once I have a forme I can re-use it, whereas taping the last is a bit of a pain.

However, in this case I wanted to make sure the pattern worked, and I hadn't previously done a shoe with an apron, so I did the pattern on the taped last. I worked on modifying the symmetrical vamp plug til I was happy with how it looked when laid on the last, then took things from there. I guess I did 'ignore' the outside of the shoe, except that it did figure into my assessment of how the modeled apron and resulting vamp would look. Also, remember that the apron needs to end at the bottom of the facings, and most lasts will not be so symmetrical that the inside and outside of the shoe where the facings start will be symmetrical, so somehow marrying a vamp plug that keeps the outside consistent while also meeting the bottom of the facings seems challenging. (hope that makes sense).

Finally, it was my thinking the standard has a straight center line down the front, and thus incorporates some excess material above the hollow of the last. When you last this excess material, where does it go? To the sides, which, it seemed to me, would result in the apron/vamp seam moving further to the sides than I had designed. I'm sure one could accommodate this in the pattern making, but I didn't want to have to do so.

Lance

Courtney,

My suggestion is to tape the last and draw the pieces onto it. Depending on your last the apron may need to be asymmetrical to look right, and sometimes it will need to be asymmetrical in order to appear symmetrical. Take your inside and outside formes and create a mean forme with different lines for the pieces of the inside and outside of the upper.

Then make a test upper and pull it over the last and make any adjustments. I make a test shoe for clients to try on before I work on the finished shoes and use this as an opportunity to test the pattern, with new or unusual designs I often cut an upper (from cheap leather) just to pull over and check my pattern.

Lance, have you seen the tutorial that Janne posted about how to take a forme from the last, it works great and because it's made from scrap leather it takes into account the extra dimension that an upper has over a paper forme. That said, I have gone back to taping the last, for me I find it is the most reliable way to make precise patterns.

Thanks Jon,

So, after I draw the pieces on the the taped last, cut it down the middle and make a mean forme?

How do I transfer the apron from the mean forme to the final pattern?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney

Just fold a piece of paper in half and put the cut top edge of each side of the formes in place and transfer the pattern to the folded paper. Make sure the pattern from one side is transferred to the other side of the folded pattern, open it out and smooth out any apparent glitches. Add your allowances or remove material and you should be good to go.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com