Pattern making

[dw]

Nasser,

Ah...my mistake. I addressed my last post to you when I really meant to speak to Jeff's concerns. Sorry.

But just to clarify...every boot or shoe that needs, or could use, crimping benefits from cutting the blocker pattern larger than the final piece that will be used. That's exactly what a "blocker" is.

I agree with you about using veg tan and I have some irons in the fire (that should resolve soon) that may make using veg for high quality shoes even easier.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

Don't mention it,i realized you were addressing Jeff,OK, "blocker pattern" if by that you mean to produce the casting or the castor pattern as Golding refers to it when making jockey and Coachman boots,than the only reason for making the pattern larger is for the purpose of tacking to crimp,but cut out to actual size when crimping is done.

Nasser
HCC-Member

[dw]

Nasser,

Exactly. But don't forget folding allowances, etc..

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

yes, of course,i was being single track here, thinking about the new jodhpurs i am working on,using some left over shrunken calf i have which are going to be made without folding,but for sure if folding is intended,than it has to be added.

Nasser

[dw]

I might add that one of the nicest leathers I've yet run across for lining shoes is a 2+ ounce veg tanned calf from Waterhouse Leathers, Peter Bentley. Tell him I sent you.

I even use it for lining full wellingtons.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

Thank you,that's good to know,I will call them as soon as i pay my card balance from last month purchase of some sole and insole leather.

Regards
Nasser

[courtney]

I just finished my new chukkas which unintentionally but not completley unexpectedly are fitters.

My question is,
I want to widen the spacing between the facings to keep them from bridging up and also I think it will look better a little wider.

if I make a smooth transition from my ankle measurement to where I want the point of my quarters to be it is pretty far back from the standard vamp point.

If I try and make it closer to the VP I think it might look kind of ridiculous having all that unlaced length.

So, I guess my question is, are chukkas immune from VP rules?

Heres a pic of an alden chukka that looks like the VP is behind the ball probably about where mine would be.

What do you think?

I'll post my fitters soon.

/image{alden}

(Message edited by courtney on March 01, 2010)

[courtney]

11052.jpg

[paul]

Does anyone have any suggestions for making patterns for my three year old Grand Daughter whose $1000 away in NY?

I just want to make a pair of slipper mocs for her little size 11, before she wears a bigger size.

TIA,
Paul

(Message edited by paul on April 10, 2010)

[1947redhed]

I'd start by gifting the family with a Pedograph stamp pad etc. It could be the start of a fun correspondence with grampa of how the footprints change and you'd have some info for patterning. Or I'd make the footwear a size or two ahead so she could grow into them.

[paul]

That's a good idea Georgene.
I'll talk to my son to get his cooperation.

I was planning on working out ahead a size or so. I just need somewhere to start.

Just last week Gracie told Daddy that Papa Krause was making slippers in lots of different colors for her. So I figured I'd probably need to get them started soon, before I fall from my pedestal. I laced up a pair of Tandy mocs with her on my lap last December. And she's been waiting for the next ones. She says her feet keep getting bigger and bigger and her slippers keep getting smaller and smaller.

Maybe I'll order a size 11-12 kit and make up pattern from that for this pair.

But I like your idea of send them an imprint kit.

Thank you,
Papa Krause

[lancepryor]

DW:

This thread is in response to your question about 'springing' the pattern, which was raised in the gallery gossip section.

Here is a series of pictures. First, the tape forme is traced, and the desired shape of the vamp is drawn on and cut. This picture shows the two pieces of the 'forme' after the vamp is cut.

11287.jpg

Then, a second quarter pattern is cut, using the first quarter pattern shown above, but with additional length in the front of the pattern. The vamp point is marked, since this location needs to meet the vamp for stitching. In the following picture, I've drawn on the shape of the original quarter piece, just for sake of reference for those viewing these pictures.

11288.jpg

Then, this second quarter pattern is laid on the last, with the vamp point of the pattern lined up with the vamp point marked on the last. The cut vamp piece is laid on top of this (again, with the vamp point at the proper location), and everything is pulled tight to the upper, with the back of the quarter pattern lined up with the appropriate point on the back of the last. Once everything is correctly in place, you can trace round the vamp piece onto the underlying quarter pattern to get your new stitching line. It feels like you need 3 hands to do this, but after a while you'll get the hang of it. Also, a bit of saliva on the front of the last helps hold the paper there, and you want to hold the two paper patterns on the last at the vamp point.

11289.jpg

After separating them, you can see how the 'new' stitching line [the dashed line] on the quarter is different from that originally cut. The new pattern should fit the last better but will require a bit of manipulation when you are fitting/sewing the pieces together.

(Note -- you would need to then need to add a stitching/underlay margin to the quarter pattern.)

11290.jpg

Hope that helps.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Thank you for going to this trouble. I understand what you are talking about now. But, I have to tell you, it scares the bejabbers out of me.

I don't understand what the purpose is....??? Can you explain?

It seems like you're just shooting in the dark. I mean, if you pull the paper quarter closer to the last you're gonna get a different result than if it is a little looser. Am I wrong?

And if you pull the paper quarter tight enough, you might get back to the original vamp line. So what's the point?

What if you use heavier paper?

And surely, the leather you cut for your shoes...the vamps and quarters...isn't going to behave like the paper.

So...dumb bootmaker...I don't get it. Help!!

Jeeze, I hate it when it doesn't make sense--real Alice in Wonderland!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

First, to clarify the process, you want to pull the pattern pieces tight to the wood, with the back of the quarter piece lining up with the center line of the heel and the rest of the patter piece as tight to the wood as you can get it. Likewise, the vamp piece should be lined up with the center line of the forefoot and held tight to the wood. We're not just laying the pattern pieces gently on the last.

However, I understand your reservations. Furthermore, I've had similar concerns and have tried to figure out what is going on, to see if I can address the process intellectually. Can't say that I've really succeeded!

However, I came up with this method on my own, and then I saw Terry doing the same thing, so I think there is something to it. In my case, I did it after I cut a flattened tape forme and laid the different pieces back on the last, only to discover they didn't line up perfectly.

My suspicion is that it has to do with restoring distortions created by the flattening of the 3D shell to a 2D pattern/forme. If you read pattern-making books (in particular, Sharpe comes to mind), they talk about the ripples/compression and the wedges/slits that come about when the forme is flattened. Perhaps you know how to 'read' these and adjust for them in the pattern cutting, but I sure don't. I believe that laying the cut pattern pieces back on the last is another way of addressing this same problem. It seems to me that, by definition, the forme is inherently imperfect due to these distortions, so why worry about changing something that is flawed?

Just try a couple of experiments, with a paper-backed tape forme -- first, simply try to lay the forme back on the last; my experience has been that it won't go back on perfectly, but rather there will be areas (e.g. in the outside waist) where it doesn't lay perfectly [and note that this area is where the vamp/quarter intersection occurs]. Next, cut one of your tape formes after it has been backed with paper into a vamp piece and quarter piece, then lay the pieces back on the last and see if they meet at the edges. I'm guessing they won't. (Or another way of doing it -- place the vamp piece on the last and trace around the back edge. Remove. Put the quarter piece on and see how it lines up.) If not, then a pattern taken straight from the cut forme is flawed/imperfect.

Now, that is not saying the 'sprung' pattern will be perfect, or even necessarily better. However, I think if done reasonably attentively, it will get you closer.

As to how hard to pull the paper, what weight of paper, etc., we are just trying to get closer to the correct pattern. Perfection may not be attainable, but improvement certainly is.

FWIW, seeing Terry do it with the paper he uses, that paper is pretty darn tight to the wood. He uses some sort of kraft paper, I think, but don't know much more about it.

Maybe when you get a chance, you can try out two different patterns, one done straight from the forme, the other doing it sprung. See which one lasts more easily and fits better to the wood. It would be interesting to try this on an identical pair of lasts.

By the way, Frank Jones, are you out there?.....

Lance

(Message edited by lancepryor on June 03, 2010)

[dearbone]

It should be common sense that when removing the tape of the last and than mounting it on hard paper at least 3 or more times thicker than the tape itself,of course it can't go back to the same place as it was taken/cut and little distortion will take place,but there are ways to minimize the distortions,first, care must be taken to preserve the correct shape of the top line and the facing of quarters and vamps and allowing the wrinkles to fall to the bottom/allowance,hence the creases we make to the bottom of the tape forme in the front and back,but i suppose if other technique works,who is to say otherwise.

Nasser

[dw]

Lance, Nasser,

This whole business is where one really needs a mentor...and maybe for a fairly long session too.

See, I've been making my formes with canvas. My rationale is that it won't stretch like leather but it won't "pile up" when flattened like the tape will. Now, the reason I mention this is that I can...at least so far...put the forms back on the last and they will fit. If I cement them down to a piece of manila folder, well, that's another story.

But I have followed Franks/Sharpe's instructions to the letter when taping up a last and I have never been able to get it to flatten out lengthwise to the full extent. In fact, if I had my druthers I would probably go with the slotted paper formes before the tape method. In the end, I like the canvas method. It's not necessarily quicker or cheaper than any of the others but it does seem adequate and understandable.

I admit it, without a teacher, I just don't know what to do with all those slots or with all those heavy unflattenable wrinkles that build up in the tape.

I do envy you your time with Terry.[I don't know how long you spend with him but you've been over there half a dozen times?]

But both of you observations help a lot...Lance Nasser...I almost always try out the techniques you talk about. I usually end up feeling a bit stymied but I try them. So thank you, both.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

Lance et. al.

When a tape or other form is flattned the ripples/compression and the wedges/slits represent areas where the leather will need to stretch.

When I make relief cuts in the tape to allow it to flatten, I know that these are the areas of leather stretch.

The boundaries where the quarter and vamp join do not impinge on these stretch areas.

Sounds to me like you are saying that by modifying these boundaries, you can reduce the amount of stretch required. But, because the join areas are not the same as the stretch areas, I don't think this will have a big impact.

Of course, the joins are more rigid than the non-sewed leather and this will affect the overall stretch capabilities. But I would rather that my joins were precise than get a very small advantage (IMHO) from changing or springing them.

[lancepryor]

DW:

The canvas method certainly sounds interesting and would seem to merit experimenting with.

When you flatten the canvas, where does the distortion 'go'? I assume the canvas is put onto the last with minimal stretching or other distortion, so something must happen to the canvas forme when it's flattened, no? If you were then to transfer/trace the forme onto a new piece of canvas, cut the vamp and quarter line on the new canvas, and try them on the last, I'd still be curious to see if the two edges line up. It seems to me that if a flattened forme has distortion, then the resultant patterns by definition also have distortion. If you try it, please let me know how it turns out.

If Bill Tippit were still around, I imagine he could do an image displaying the distortion of the flattened shell, which would no doubt be interesting.

Rick:

I understand your point of view, and it is certainly valid. I will admit that I don't quite know what you mean by the joins being more or less 'precise.' Using the springing approach doesn't lead to a less precise join, by my way of thinking; the join line still results from a tracing of the vamp edge onto the quarter pattern, the tracing is simply done on the last rather than on a flat surface.

I do think you are right that the springing method in essence adds back in the amount of leather (or stretch in the absence of the additional leather) that is necessary. If you look at the results of the example in my pics, the variation goes from zero halfway down the last to about 1/4 inch at the feather line (where the distortion due to flattening is at its maximum).

However, why don't you try out the cutting and laying on the last the two pieces (be they of paper, leather, canvas, or whatever) cut from the flattened forme and see what happens? If you do, I'd love to hear the results.

Clearly, there is not one right way to do things. In 'defense' of the springing approach (not that I really need to or am defending it), what I can say is that somebody who has been cutting bespoke patterns for 45+ years, and who learned from people trained at Peals and elsewhere in London, does it that way. Perhaps there is something to it after all....

This whole pattern cutting topic is certainly challenging. I'm enjoying the discussion.


Thanks,
Lance

[dw]

Lance,

I'm not sure how we define distortion. I know it must be there especially when we wrap a last with tape--I see the bubbles and creases developing even as the tape is being laid. And it is definitely evident when the tape forme is flattened.

Paper doesn't distort much by itself but cutting those slots and wedges seems to indicates a distortion of some is a given.

On the other hand, when canvas is used...avoiding stretching the canvas in any direction...the curves and contours of the last are "sublimated," as who should say in the weft and warp of the canvas. The weave compresses or opens up. Those contours flatten out when the canvas is taken off the last--the weave goes back to it' relaxed state. And if the canvas is heavy enough you don't even need to cement it to paper, you can use it "as is."

I'm not advocating. I'm not defending. I am just explaining what I think is happening and why it seems good to me.

More than that, Lance, I wouldn't doubt Terry's experience and insights for a minute...I just don't have access to to them.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

One variation of this whole discussion...how do you fellows establish the center-line going down the forepart of the last?

With the tape method, I use Frank's suggestion and draw a straight line on the masking tape....while it is still on the roll...and try to stretch/lay the tape from one end point on the cone to the center/end point of the toe. But that's not foolproof...it's not hard to distort that line to one side or the other especially over the joint and waist.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

Lance,
very instructive photos of how you spring the pattern.

To avoid the need of the third hand, what you do on your third photo could be done right on the cutting table. I put the mean form on top of a new quarter and secure the vamp point on top of each other by punching the peg awl trough it and then I lift the toe of the mean forme up to create the spring I wish.


(Message edited by janne melkersson on June 04, 2010)

[artzend]

DW

You can mark the centre of the toe and the centre of the top of the cone, lay a pencil on the bench top and line the marks up with the pencil which is slid along the benchtop. When you have the last at right angles to the bench, you can draw in the line up the centre of the front and do the same at the back. That's the way I did it for years.

Tim

[lancepryor]

Tim:
That is a great approach.

One can also use a bendable plastic ruler, which will conform to the curves of the last but not distort side-to-side, so you'll get a straight line on the last. But, I think I'll use Tim's approach from now on!

Janne:
Good idea to use the peg awl to lock the two pieces together on the last at the vamp point. Do you find springing the pattern on the last helps to improve the resultant pattern/upper?

Lance

[dw]

Janne,

Why is it necessary to spring the patterns? What does it accomplish?

How do you control the springing? As I suggested in my response to Lance, wouldn't the weight of the paper or how closely it is pulled to the last affect the result?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Tim,

Thanks for responding...

Unfortunately, I'm not getting it...you guys are making me feel old! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Could you post photos? I've been struggling with this issue for some years now.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member