The Crispin Colloquy

Good job.

FWIW, I generally dye the welt before I inseam. I also usually cover the shoe in shrinkwrap before I inseam as well.

Don't ya mean welt-sew? LOL

Whatever I'm doing when I pick up my inseam awl.

Which is more acutely curved sewing awl for welt sewing?

IOW, making the inseam?

das wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:38 pm
IOW, making the inseam?

Yes! AKA inseaming

Don't recall ever reading "inseaming" as a verb, just "welt sewing", or "the sewing". Afterward, the seam is called the inseam, but I'm mostly "living" in the pre-1950 texts/archaic lingo. On the Internet traditional usage has quite gone to hell IMO

Well, in fairness...to both you and me...I came up in a different 'shoemaking culture' than you. I learned my basics and much of my lexicon among American Western (cowboy) bootmakers--not as old and venerable as the auld English and Scots shoemaking cultures but one that is perhaps just as valid in that it is maybe the only really legitimately viable bespoke shoemaking community in the US.

I try to be as historically and politically 'correct' as I can. But old habits are hard to break, and often clearer and more specific, even to the layman, than the old terms--I suspect that's why they arose, in the first place.

FWIW, I don't put much stock in obscure terminology that appears on the Internet.

A good example of all this is the discussion going on, elsewhere, about edge irons. When I came up...and in the 'culture' that I came up in...'wire' was the preferred term for the beads that 'irons' impressed into the edge of the outsole. And the 'crease' was cut into the face of the iron.

Personally, I'm all for preserving the Traditions and the auld culture. But communicating ideas with people we are talking to takes precedence...every time.

And perhaps you'll find this ironic--if I'm talking to someone insists on using one of those made-up Internet terms, I will go along for the sole purpose of conveying the idea.

YMMV and IMO...

I think the crux of this is maintaining as best we can a grasp of the etymology of terms from older published texts we all read, or ought to read--which terms are old, which are British-English, which are Americanisms, which are recently revived archaic (e.g. Medieval) fun-sounding words, versus stuff simply made-up in the last 50 years or so, usually by folks who simply didn't know the traditional terms.

Conveying an idea, communicating, is grand. Language is fluid and changes over time, terms changed meanings. But IMHO it only renders what old texts we have more obscure when we abandon their terms/usage--they're already a hard read for many, and it would only make them less user-friendly if the traditional terms they are written in are abandoned for what The Bard himself called "fire newe words", not to be fond within their pages.

I agree with you 100%...as far as it goes. But as I said sometimes terms evolve or arise because the old words, which made sense in a very insular environment, aren't as clear or specific without additional modifiers esp. in broader context.

You and I have been thrashing this around for some time now. But, as an example, what is 'welt''? Is it a noun or a verb? Is it a leather strip sometimes used while sewing the inseam and sometimes used as a divider between panels of leather...in a side seam, for instance...or is it a process? What is 'welting''? A bundle of leather strips or the process of sewing welt?

I suspect, that when shoemaking/bootmaking came to this country, it mixed in with other forms of leather work such as saddlemaking simply because that was the nature of the small workshops--doing both bootmaking and saddlework and some harness work. No Guilds or holy restrictions to separate or define who could and couldn't do what. At some point, certain terminology came into parlance to convey the distinction between the sideseam welt and the inseam welt, as an example. Sure, we can say 'welt sewing' to distinguish it from 'welt' as a verb, but again it needs an adverb or adjective to make that distinction. And like it or not, over time, language always wants to be more succinct rather than more verbose.

I came up in the Trade using 'tickler' in reference to a tool used to separate stitches (as well as other useful processes). I know it today...and habitually call it...a 'stitch prick' but 'tickler' came from saddlemaking, I suspect. Same tool, however.

Similarly, 'heel stiffener'--that's the term I use, but I came up using 'counter'. My mentor never said 'stitch prick' or 'heel stiffener'.'Toe puff'-->'toe box'; 'shank pincers'-->'bulldogs', etc..

What is 'hole'? Is it an artifact or a technique? And how did 'hole' morph into 'holing'? If 'hole' can become 'holing' and 'welt' can become 'welting', why is it so unthinkable that 'inseam' can give rise...and legitimately...to 'inseaming''?

In any case, American shoe/bootmaking went its own way...long before you or I were ever born. It is/was a different culture than the British 'school'. But so is the German school of shoemaking; or the French school or the Italian school. And what are we going to do with the Japanese lexicon that will inevitably emerge? Hold on to the auld terms, surely, but make them prove their ability to communicate clearly and succinctly. Or forgo talking to anyone not in our 'school'.

Forgive me for if that's what it is, but I have yet another question:

If it is somehow wrongheaded to preserve, or even revive old words such as 'coad' or 'lingel' (and there are many more) how can it not be wrongheaded to oppose the...judicious...evolution of the lexicon? Esp. if the terminology is grammatically a proper evolution (such as 'inseam'-->'inseaming') that serves to clarify meaning? Seems obstreperous, at least.

Hard to think of another meaning for 'inseaming' but there's a plethora of meanings for 'welt'...not all of them connected with shoemaking.

Nice work Bob
There aren't many of us Full Hand Sewers around, so keep it up
Cheers
Duncan

thanks for the feedback/advice DW - Dying beforehand seems like the ticket. As for wrapping the shoe, I tried the shrink-wrap and then water was wicking in under the wrap so I got worried about it being trapped in for the duration and staining. I guess that worry was unfounded or trumped by the rogue dye doing the business.

@dmcharg , I'd love to say I'm that much of a purist. The handsewing of the uppers is out of necessity. While I AM growing fond of some of the handwork, I must confess that I ordered a post bed today. I think I'll still incorporate some handsewing on my uppers and will certainly keep the bottoming all machine free.

bcFour wrote: ↑Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:02 am As for wrapping the shoe, I tried the shrink-wrap and then water was wicking in under the wrap so I got worried about it being trapped in for the duration and staining. I guess that worry was unfounded or trumped by the rogue dye doing the business.

There's always gonna be that risk esp. if your 'inseaming' awl is too large or you wiggle it back and forth as you sew. When you wiggle a curved awl the point sweeps back and forth in a relatively wide arc, cutting the leather or the shrink wrap. Only time the awl should be wiggled is when the awl point has completely emerged from the leather (and/or shrink wrap).

Also, use a brush to wet the welt and the outsole when stitching. That will minimize and afford a bit of control with the water.

Several layers of masking tape on the shrink wrap, just above the welt, will not only help to seal any too-large-holes, but it will cushion the awl so that it does not leave imprints on the upper...if you're stitching close.

Just finished these tonight. First time for a 360 and a 'storm' welt. Again, all hand stitched uppers and bottoms. This should be last pair before 'the machine' shows up.

hat tip to @dw for shrink wrap method and advice to dye the welt beforehand. Both worked like a charm.

Nice job Bob! They look great!

I like them...seamless quarters, storm welt, nice looking suede? reverse calf?...what's not to like?

Nollaig Chridheil

WOW Dee-Dubb.....those are beautiful! Great job!

The upper and linen calf stiching by hand and vibram sol
sorry if they are mistakes i'm not a native english speaker

Look good me! Thanks for sharing!

4th pair done

first time closing uppers with a machine
first time beveled waist (medial side only) (was experiment and figured it was more hidden) (and i don't have a waist iron)
first time using horse butt as welting material
first time making for someone that isn't me

construction shots here

WOW! I wish I had been able to enter into this boot and shoe making culture at an earlier age. The level of skill development presented here is "Just Amazing." My life is well into the "fifth. quarter" and I make really bad mistakes sometimes but all in all I just love being a boot and shoe maker. I want to give a sincere "thank you" to you folks that have done so much to further this craft. LP

Horween Hatchgrain Split-toes. Milled kip lining. First 'shoes' closed on the new Pfaff.

Very nice! Keep them coming.