The Crispin Colloquy

nickb1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:59 am I'd be interested to try wiping as a means of cutting down on nails and holes in the last. It seems from your pictures (and video) that you use either glue or paste so that the upper remains in place once the wiping strip is removed. Is that right?
Thanks,
Nick

I've used both paste and cement--depending on the footwear I'm making and my mood (more mmod than anything else). But I gravitate towards paste more and more--just in the feather of both the insole and the toe stiffener.

>a closer might know leather well enough to have avoided the problem you've described , but if you rely on outworkers, how will you ever? This applies across the board.

Point taken, but next time I will know somewhat better as a result of the trial and error. On subsequent uppers I've been rough cutting the patterns myself before sending them for closing, which has given me just a bit more insight to how it all works.
But I still have my original question - is it best to keep the linings dry? I think I'll have to soak the upper part as I tried spritzing and it did not make enough of a difference.
Thanks,
Nick

nickb1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:15 am But I still have my original question - is it best to keep the linings dry? I think I'll have to soak the upper part as I tried spritzing and it did not make enough of a difference.

I don't know...who could? I haven't seen the leather, I didn't draw up the patterns and not to put too fine a point on it, you haven't really even describe the problem all that specifically. I suspect that the problem might be as I described above but....

Frankly, I'd rather things were the other way around--I'd rather the lining was moist than the upper. Linings can be a little large because of the 'orange peel effect' and spritzing allows some movement and adaptation that dry doesn't.

dw wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:22 am I don't know...who could? I haven't seen the leather, I didn't draw up the patterns and not to put too fine a point on it, you haven't really even describe the problem all that specifically. I suspect that the problem might be as I described above but....

Apologies, I was labouring under the misapprehension that this is a standard-ish problem. James Ducker mentions it on his blog as something he occasionally has to do in this situation. Perhaps with cowboy boots they are not generally lined, so the question does not arise whether to soak both parts?
I could post a pic of the leather crinkling (*embarrassed*) but not sure it would help much. The leather is 1.1-1.2 mm thick black Italian calf. I'd been a bit dissatisfied with the calf leather supplied by the closer because it's not very dense - very light and stretchy, which is relatively easy to make with but not necessarily what you want when wearing them. I was hoping to get something more like boxcalf. When I handled it in the warehouse it didn;t seem much less supple than what I had been using. But it seems I've mistaken tough for dense...
Nick

Cowboy boots...as made today, esp. bespoke...are always lined.

What I don't understand is where your problem is and and what it looks like. Is it in the waist? is it excess leather that won't pull down? Just describe it...you don't need to post a photo.

As for "standard-ish", I can't speak for everyone but I've made a few pair of oxfords, johdpurs, George boots chelseas and derbies and I simply have no experience with these kinds of problem. So, no way to evaluate them without more information.

Regarding linings---one piece of shoemaking kit has been the lining plyers. Indicating, or implying, that the lining be pulled separately from the uppers. For whatever that's worth.

Hi dw,
The problem is lasting the heel and toe areas. The leather seems too inflexible at least when dry to pull out the cleats in the normal way. I managed with effort to last around the heel with spritzing the upper, but it is somewhat crinkled, perhaps the grain part has started to separate.
Here is the lasted heel in all it's ugliness ;-) It also forms a large blob under the feather edge, worse than I've had before.
The toe area feels just as problmatic and will presumably be more so because of the tighter curve. Nick

@nickb1

First, the heel...if it were me, I would open it all up about now and clean up the pipes in the lining. Cut them off flush with the surface of the insole. You can use a side nipper for that or just a knife. Then paste the lining flush on the insole.

Then cut notches (if you haven't already in the lasting margin of the heel stiffener. All the way to the edge of the insole. Leaving tabs. Then lay them down and paste them flat on the lining. With a French edger you can skive the stiffener where it turns over the edge of the insole....to make everything level.

Next I'd re-draft the upper around the heel. A wiping strip would help but it can be done with nails.

If you reduce the thickness of all the layers under the upper in the heel area, It will lay down flat and look 100% better.

Now the toe: There is nothing about the leather in that photo that worries me. You can last it tight.and with small pipes, removing all excess on the vertical surfaces of the last. Do it in stages as with the heel--draft the lining and paste it down. Add your toe stiffener with paste or cement. shape and re-draft the toe. A wiping strip is useful...more than useful--elegant...here. but it can be done with nails

Remember that everything from the inseam inward will be cut off if you are making a handwelted shoe. So pipes laying on the insole surface that faces you are not important. All you really have to do is clear the vertical surfaces--toe and heel.

You can talk about dense and hard leather but I have made boots with narrow box toes out of alligator and moved every pipe and wrinkle beyond the inseam. You won't find a denser less flexible leather on the planet than alligator. And yes, I used a wiping technique.

I didn't invent wiping. My teacher didn't invent it. I suspect that the photos you see on the internet of shoes near-as-nevermind fully lasted with a multitude of nails are for show more than anything else. Yes, it's a useful skill if you can do it and the leather is cooperative, but not necessary.

Nor, given the sometimes mind-numbingly excessive number of nails, necessarily 'best practices.'

Thanks DW,
I'll give it a go as you suggest. Thinning the layers makes sense. I did notice that this lining leather is thicker than usual, which was not helping...
N

well after an over-long day-job-induced delay, back to work on these. I did as you suggested @dw and lo and behold, the heel looks fine now. :-) Thanks for the tips. I think this leather is fine after all, though it's not the easiest to work.
N

nickb1 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:14 pm well after an over-long day-job-induced delay, back to work on these. I did as you suggested @dw and lo and behold, the heel looks fine now. :-)
heel2.JPG Thanks for the tips. I think this leather is fine after all, though it's not the easiest to work.
N

Glad to see you tried it. Looks great! I knew it would work and I knew it would satisfy you.

Looks great @nickb1. Assuming that you are not going to sew the welt all around, what are you going to do later at the heel section? (That is just where i am at the moment) Initially I only attached the first heel lift by means of wooden pegs to keep the whole heel section together. So far none of my shoes has disintegrated at the heel, however, there are also a lot of folks sewing the upper to the insole directly without using a well formed holdfast. With the last couple of pairs I did the same and maybe this results in a better defined heel shape, but my worry is that I kill the seam with the wooden pegs I use later to attach the first heel lift. In that case I think there might be no use of sewing the heel as well. How do you do it?

Hi @carsten, This is how I'm doing it. no doubt there are other ways. I'm welting only to the heel points that you can see in silver pen. I keep saddle stitching around the heel but without a welt, with slightly larger stitches, say 1 every cm. The inside line of the holdfast is carved around the heel, but only the inside since there is no welt. I was taught to make a leather shank piece that fills the cavity formed when the leather has been trimmed back after stitching. This extends up to a line drawn behind the joint line, not too far forward or it will interfere with the 'spring' in walking. Insole leather is used for the shank. There is no metal shank, which I was told is fine so long as the leather shank piece is thick enough, so the shank shouldn't be skived too thin when blending with the other leathers around the edges. Though if it's for a larger person or e.g. a workboot a metal shank is advisable, which in this construction would go under the leather shank. The shank is glued and hammered in place and is worked dry, not mellow; it should fit tightly into the cavity. The first heel lift goes on top of the back part of it once the sole and split lift have been added (i do the split lift first) and is nailed (alas!) or pegged through the sole, split lift, shank and insole as well as glued.
Re. the way you are doing it, I don't think it matters that much if the pegs go through some of the stitches. Try deliberately driving a peg through the welting thread. It probably won't break, just the peg is parting the fibres. So I think stitching + pegging will be a lot stronger than just pegging.
Nick

Thanks for the explanation @nickb1. I am surprised about your comments on the shank. Up to now I have read that wooden and metal shanks are used. Until now I have used metal shanks exclusively- even with sandals and never dared to use only leather. (So hard to stay within one topic - this surely is not lasting anymore). I am currently working on some high heels for my wife for Christmas - through I can't remember that I ever agreed to do Santas job ... :-)

A few comments / observations: First if you sew around the back part as Nickb1 suggests, then just be sure that you use a needle point (or 'round point') pegging awl. My preference anyway. The awl will pierce the threads without cutting them. Round point awls can be round in diameter or oval or square...I prefer a square shank on the awl...although esp. here the awl must be fairly significantly smaller in diameter than the pegs.

Also, wood and even leather shanks are OK (i prefer metal always, as well) if the heel height of the last is low. Once you start making shoes or boots with heels above one inch (and maybe slightly lower--5/8"?) such shanks will not support the foot the way they were intended over a long period of wear. And the shape of the shoe or boot will suffer as well.

@carsten and @dw
Yes I forgot to add that the metal shanks were advised for higher heels. Though my last teacher who makes for Lobb was of the view that up to 1 1/2" heels were fine with a leather shank on smaller sized women's boots. Perhaps the size of the woman is equally important! I doubt the average Lobb ankle boot gets heavy wear however, in view of the "genteel" clientele. In future I'll be putting a metal shank in just to be on the safe side for anything over an inch. Carreducker also reported that on mens shoes in larger sizes the leather shanks were not wearing well, so started using metal shanks as standard.
N

carsten wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:54 am

das wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 am A stout single thread (a double works too) was passed zig-zag or crisscross fashion through the lasting margin on either side, and drawn up to pull the upper down tight to the last. After the sewing, the zig-zag "bracing" thread was cut, removed, the lasting margin trimmed down and the result, voila, zero tack holes or iron stains in the sole.

Wires appear to be used as well for lasting. Bertl, who makes very rugged double stitched Haferl shoes, published a picture on this method in his book. The wire is rather strong, looks like a 1mm diameter or so and is attached by only two nails. This way, he states, better wrinkle free tips can be realized and also tac holes are avoided. Furthermore he says that lifespan of the last can be extended significantly.

I am just not sure how this works exactly. The photo he published looks more or less like this. Unfortunately there is not much more description in the book. Maybe it works best for very strong upper leather and double stitching as the regular welting might interfere with the wire.

Does anybody know how to apply this method?

There is a gentleman that makes boots in LA that has a video on his YouTube channel showing this exact technique. His channel name is “Brian the Bootmaker”

Obviously wire will work, but historically they used thread. Steel wire, or copper or brass for that matter, would have not been as economical to use, say, Medieval-18thc.

Thanks for the info @Dave_S. Yes that looks like what Bertl had described in his book. I would be curious to see how he sews the welt on. Looks like he did not post that part or I can not find it.

@carsten I’m not sure I’ve seen how he sews his welts, but it looks like he uses the same techniques for boots and shoes, so there may be video of it in one of his other process videos.