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Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:45 am
by dearbone
Lance,

This issue is really a balancing act rather than a scientific one,If you like to obtain your folded vamp from the actual last/shell cease line TB,than you need to drop it below T,about 1 or 1.5mm.put a ruler between B and T and move up or down the cease line and see how it effects the slack above the joints.By lowering the top/tongue area about 1 or 2 mm below cease line,you give some relief to the toe(not dug in much).

Nasser

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:04 pm
by courtney
Is a lapjack or lasting pin really usefull?

I've made 4 pairs now and I see definate value for the lasting jack for inseaming and prying the last out, but it seems to not do much for lasting the shoe and I just end up holding it in my lap or between my knees.

What do you guys think?

Courtney

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:44 pm
by artzend
Courtney

Some people last standing up, and a lasting pin is used for that, as well as taking the last out of the shoe/boot.

The traditional method is to last sitting down, and from that standpoint, (sorry about the pun), a lasting pin is only used for last removal and specific jobs that require more leverage.

Others may disagree, but that has been my experience, and I have used both methods at different times. It's a relatively cheap tool and doesn't take up much space, and you never know when it will be required.

Tim

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:51 pm
by courtney
lasting standing up never occoured to me, but I think that would probably be better for posture and neck problems like I have. I'll have to try that.

Thanks.
Courtney

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:54 pm
by dw
As Tim says lasting is traditionally done in the lap and sitting down. One of the reasons...mentioned in Salaman, IIRC...is that if a tool or piece of leather is dropped is is easy to retrieve it without letting go of the shoe. Or loosing your place.

I have always used a lapjack. That's the way I was taught and frankly after having done it both ways--in my lap and on the jack--you couldn't pay me enough to give up the lapjack. Just a matter of what you get used to, I guess.

Similarly with an inseaming jack. I have inseamed in my lap with nothing for support but my knee and a stirrup but it's a big pain for me. I can also inseam with a lapjack and that's an improvement but it's like riding in a Cadillac to inseam on an inseaming jack.

And of course if you're gonna welt stitch by hand you nearly have to do it in the lap with a stirrup and sometimes even drop the stirrup.

My criteria has always been that it is useful and interesting to know and try as many of the old techniques as you can but when all is said and done, if the results...after you get done sweeping up the floor...are identical or better with a tool than without, I'd be a damn fool to do without.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 24, 2010)

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:13 pm
by producthaus
DW,

I have not purchased a jack yet for inseaming, welting, or even breaking the last to remove the shoe, so I am in need of something.

I am thinking about Dick Anderson's inseaming jack, and it looks like I could (by removing the forepart metal arm) also use it for breaking the last.

Can you explain why an inseaming jack cannot be used for welt stitching by hand?


Also, do you have a picture of a "lapjack", as I have never seen one, and maybe contact info for a supplier so I can call them and learn more?

EDIT: Ok, I found pictures of the lapjack on this forum, question about contact info still stands though.

(Message edited by producthaus on December 15, 2010)

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:11 pm
by jon_g
Nick

I'm just going to jump in here. If you mean sole stitching when you say welt stitching, then it is because you have to hold the shoe in a different position.

I use a stirrup for both stitches and it works great.

Of course you will still need something to break the last with but you might prefer a taller jack for that anyway, it allows for better leverage when you have those tough to pull lasts.

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:12 pm
by courtney
I think you have to make it, Tim's book tells you how to make a last pin which is about the same thing, D.W.'s book tells how to make it out of an axe handle.

Inseaming jack is for sewing the welt on with the bottom of the shoe facing you, the forepart arm swivels out of the way.

To sew the sole on to the welt you need to have the shoe sideways.

I have Dick's sit down lasting jack, it was the only piece of boot or shoemaking tools I bought about 12 years ago. It held up my christmas tree a few years, I tried to sell it, now about two years ago I finnally started actually making shoes. It is GREAT!

I think you could use it same as a lap jack, I cant because im 6'3" and its a little short for me to do that. and you dont need to move the arm to break the last you just move the last, but the arm swings up or down with the twist of a screw.

Courtney

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:51 pm
by artzend
Nick

I used to use my lasting pin as a sit down device for handsewing by using a bar stool to sit on which put the last right in my lap, and I could use a strap on it as well.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:11 pm
by dw
Nick,

If you're gonna do shoes, or mostly shoes, I'd recommend getting one of Dick's new lapjacks. An inseaming jack is good especially for boots but you can do everything you need to do...except outsole stitching...on a lapjack.

Dick does have a jack or an attachment for the inseaming jack (not sure which) that allows the shoe/boot to be held such that the insole is vertical. I don't know what one does when you get to the toe but it seems like having the shoe held firmly and steady when stitching the outsole would speed things up considerably.

That said, maybe it is well to learn to do as much of it in your lap with a stirrup as you can. And having said that, I will admit that I would probably not be able to last a shoe or especially a boot without the lapjack. Just never learned it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:31 pm
by producthaus
Thanks for the answers.

I lasted a test fitter with 4-5oz horween upper and 2-3oz horse front liner. It seems that the materials run out of space to go, and the pleats run over the feather edge. Any suggestions?

The same issue happens at the toe.
12566.jpg

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 pm
by dw
More lasting allowance and better control when lasting the heel and toe--sometimes lasting the liner first and then the upper helps especially when working with heavy materials.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:51 pm
by producthaus
Thanks DW, I will try lasting the liner first. I wasn't sure if a 20mm lasting allowance was a hard rule, and increasing that amount meant one is cheating or ignoring a problem somewhere else.

For example, I added a small buildup to this shoe on the lateral side, could I have re-used the original pattern (drafted with no buildup), and just added a bit more lasting allowance?

I also need to get some thin lasting pliers. I bet I could have made the pleats closer together at the middle line.

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:05 pm
by dw
Well, it may be an old bootmaker's stubbornness but I always add a full inch lasting allowance. I'd rather be sure, I'd rather trim off excess than be scraping for enough.

And yes, you probably could have used the same standard/pattern.

Several tips...a very thin nosed lasting plyer is a mainstay in my shop...I wouldn't be without it. But if a person knows how to use the pincer to create pipes and how to use a shoemakers hammer to tighten them up, and even drive them away from the feather, a really narrow pair is not needed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:09 pm
by artzend
Nick

last the lining first, that makes it much easier to deal with the big pleats, then come back and approach them. Wet them if need be.

You can add extra to the lasting allowance, it's not cheating. If you have added a large buildup it makes sense to add a bit to the lasting allowance.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:03 pm
by producthaus
What are the details of "lasting the lining first"? Do I glue/nail then wait for the lining to dry?

Do the pleats need to be skived off before lasting the counter and upper? Seems like the lining will be in the way and needs to be managed before lasting the upper?

I may be branching off into another area here...

...I understand how the toe upper is peeled back, but I haven't grasped how the heel upper might be pulled back to gain access to the lining or counter for gluing for skiving.

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:16 pm
by artzend
Nick

I put 3 videos on lasting on Youtube, under Tim Skyrme that show how I last up if that helps. I don't peel back the heel, but you can do that in two parts too.

Tim

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:55 pm
by courtney
This question is mostly for Tim Skyrme, but anyone with an answer please do so.

I made some chukkas, before putting soles on I tried them for fit, which they did not.

If I was to modify my last and insole how can I remake this same pair?

Do I have to remove the counters or just wet them real good?

Anything else?

Thanks,
Courtney

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:13 pm
by courtney
Also, I have wrinkles on both boots right across the bottom of the facings, is this from not crimping?

Re: Lasting

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:28 pm
by artzend
Courtney

It would be best if you remove the stiffener and re-last. Take your toe puff out too, you will have to probably re-last the toe too by the sounds of it.

Pull up on the tongue and see if that removes your wrinkles. If it doesn't then maybe you need to pull the toe over a bit more before pulling the back down into place for re-lasting the seat. You can lift the back of the boot up above the swell of the heel area, and after tacking the toe (first 3 tacks) pull the seat down, this will help pull out wrinkles.

You may get away with just wetting the stiffener but re-doing it is best.

A photo may help.

Tim

Re: Lasting

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:10 pm
by courtney
Thanks Tim. I will post pictures soon.

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:22 pm
by courtney
here are my latest problems,

image{1}
image{2}
image{3}
image{4}

when I lasted these they both had a little wrinkle above the stay stitch that I couldnt get out.

When I put them on and the tounge raised up it caused them to really distort and be uncomforatable.

before I closed them the vamps were already a little distorted from where I cut and laced them, especially after I tightened up the lacing.

What do you think caused this,

And, Do you think its possible to fix it?

I had some other problems too for another post.

Thanks,
Courtney

Re: Lasting

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:26 pm
by courtney
Sorry, heres the pics.

I pulled really hard on the tounge, Maybe I needed to pull the vamp more?

Courtney
12674.jpg
12675.jpg
12676.jpg
12677.jpg


(Message edited by courtney on January 09, 2011)

Re: Lasting

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:19 am
by artzend
Courtney

I think you may need to add an eyelet further down the facings. That sometimes fixes problems like this,it will stop the tongue riding down in wear, which can happen when the eyelets are too high up.

You can't pull the vamp further forward or the mudguard will not sit right. That is nice fancy work on your vamp.

Tim

Re: Lasting

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:09 pm
by courtney
Thanks Tim,

I dont think thats going to do it though.
Once they're on my foot I can pull on the tounge and push the toe down and the problems still there.

I know the position of the tounge sits back farther on the last than it does on my foot.

maybe I need to crimp it?

I dont know much about good shoe leather but this stuff is pretty stiff, maybe the leather is the problem?

After lasting these at the toe I seriously wondered how it was physically possible for smaller woman to do this, absolutley no offense intended but I am a 6'3 male and weigh around 195 and these almost killed me. So maybe the leather is the culprit? {that being said, I'm also kind of a lanky artist with chronic pain, so...}

I know that I wasnt able to get the vamps to lay tight to the wood on the lateral side,I think.

Maybe the lasts? I had some issues with those too, building up for orthotics, I'll post those questions soon.

Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on January 10, 2011)