Lasting

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#551 Post by dw » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm

Marcel,

I like the way you use what is basically a wide welt--a straight strip of leather to make your heelseat, I've been doing that the hard way and cutting "U" shaped pieces.

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marcell · #552 Post by **marcell** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:06 pm

Well, for cowboy boots I couldn't imagine better solution, than that..

For shoes, it is more traditional.

marcell · #553 Post by **marcell** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:31 pm

I almost forget.. I promised to show some of my tools.

Awls: this collection is used every day. No student can touch them!

If you ever had any, you know why...

different curves for different purposes.

9736.jpg

And some other.. Not used every day, but I keep them close, as I use them sometimes.

So let me share you what are those different purposes...

1. welting at the shank
2. welting at the toe
3. welting at the heel (I don't do that so often)
4. heel seat stitching
5. sole stitchng at the shank
6. sole stitchng at the toe

This was English welted. I know some more hand stitched technology - you can imagine that some of them needs special formed awls.. so Here they are.

9737.jpg

j_johansen · #554 Post by **j_johansen** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:17 pm

Here's a high definition lasting video I made recently
Bootmaking- Lasting
Hope you all enjoy it.
J.

(Admin, is there no way to post in the video section, or did I miss something?)
(Message edited by j johansen on June 11, 2009)

(Message edited by j johansen on June 11, 2009)

romango · #555 Post by **romango** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:50 am

J,

Thanks for putting that video together. It really gives a good feel for technique.

I wish I knew where I could get some of those dog ear pliers. Or is that bulldog pliers?

j_johansen · #556 Post by **j_johansen** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:33 pm

Rick,
Yes those are bulldogs. I had talked to a machinist friend of mine about making a pattern off of mine so he could machine a back-up pair but it was so expensive for making the pattern it wouldn't have been worth it, unless I had wanted to go into the bulldog plier business! The short of it is I don't know where to get any either.
J.

#557 Post by dw » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:57 pm

As far as I know the big plastic handled USM bulldogs are still being made. I think you might be able to get then special order from Oregon Leather...if not Oregon Leather in Eugene then in Portland and if not there then McPheresons in Seattle.

They're not Barnsley's, much less Christiansen's, but they'll do in a pinch and you can always get Greg to turn you a nice wood replacement handle.

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#558 Post by dw » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:59 pm

Jay,

That was a darn nice video...it was well put together and the high def really looks good. I really like the fast motion sequences.

If you want to email it to me in WMV format, I'll post it permanently in the video section.

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j_johansen · #559 Post by **j_johansen** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:50 pm

DW,
It only took me six months to figure out how to shoot, edit, format, and post that video. I'll see if I can figure out how to put it in that format and get it to you.
Cheers, J.

#560 Post by dw » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:48 am

Jay,

Of course it did! I've been there, done that and now own the franchise. It took me that long to learn to code in html--back in the day when it was all text based. It's taken me years to learn to use Ventura Publisher and CorelDraw and PhotoPaint to best advantage and I bet I'm still not using more than 70% of the power built in to those programs.

But now you know how to do something pretty unique. I wish I knew how to duplicate that fast motion technique. (Of course I haven't looked at my video camera in over a year much less did any editing--maybe it's not that hard). But I'm here to tell you it's a great technique. And you can build on it.

There's a moral here too, a Brer Rabbit in the Bramble type of moral--it takes time to get good at anything.

I heard a story on the radio recently about this fellow who tested...scientifically...as the happiest man alive--his brain was producing more of a certain type of brain wave than anyone ever tested before. In an interview, he said that it had taken him 40 years of meditation to get to that state.

40 years down the road you might be the next Cecile B. DeMille, and we'll all be saying "I knew him when..."

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#561 Post by dw » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:36 pm

Rick,

Re: bulldogs...Try Charles Williams at Global Supply; 1.508.279.0021

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jon_g · #562 Post by **jon_g** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:51 am

Here are a couple of questions:

I am about to attempt my second english stitch. How long should I wait, after lasting the upper over before I begin stitching? Should I begin immediately or leave it over night? I generally last damp and this upper is made of burnishable buffalo.

This is a brogue derby, I finally got my gimping machine tuned up and running. What should I use to glue down the piece underneath the decorative holes in the toe? Rubber cement, all purpose?

Thanks for any help I can get.

Jon

#563 Post by dw » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:16 pm

Reminds me of something I heard years ago--that in France, what we call a "French hammer" is called an "English hammer."

I am not sure what you mean by "english stitch" but I assume that you mean inseaming. If this is the case, I always wait until the shoes/boots have dried thoroughly. Besides, there are a lot of little clean-up jobs that are better done when the leather is dry...such as laying the leather in the heelseat as flat as possible.

As far as gimping is concerned, nothing special is required but when it comes to broguing I use a double sided tape made especially for such applications and punch through it while broguing. There is a paper backing on the tape and after the holes have been punched, the paper is removed, leaving adhesive on the leather everywhere but where the holes are. And that, in turn, allows the brogued piece to be affixed to the underlying leather...whether purely decorative or structural...and eliminating the possibility of cement or glue residue in the ornamental holes. I hope that's clear

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paul · #564 Post by **paul** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:24 pm

DW,

I think some light just came on, and I wanted to confirm or be corrected.

Re: Lasting the counters.

I just delivered two pair of boots to a husband and wife.
Despite very good reports and fit observation from the fitters, one of the wife's heels, is "slipping terribly".
I know there can be a variety of reasons for this. However, after side seaming and turning, I was just squeezing together the counter I made from S/P insole shoulder for the triad I'm playing with. And...

...it occured to me that another possibily for my customers complaint may be that the counter for that boot was dryer than it's mate. (Tho not by a whole lot, but I do remember worrying about them being too dry).
Could it be that it didn't close up around the heel of the last, therefore her ankle/heel well enough? I know you say that a test for 'too firm' a leather for a counter is that, can it be squeezed and folded to within 1" of itself.
But would you also say that it should be so bent before lasting?

I'm just askin'.

TIA,
Paul

#565 Post by dw » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:31 pm

Paul,

You want it to be pretty moist and squeezed together as close as you can get it. I might also add that the way the patterns are designed, whether the counter cups the back of the heel (and the side of the cone) is at least somewhat dependent on the drafts at the side seam.

Heel slippage can further be traced back to whether you lasted seats up, and/or whether the long heel girth is correct.

And, everything else being equal and done correctly, sometimes it's just a quirk of that persons foot.

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#566 Post by dw » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:42 am

Throughout my career making boots (and what I was taught) I have always cemented the toebox to both the lining and, as I drew the forepart of the vamp over, the toebox to the upper.

Making shoes, I have usually done the same using HirschKleber or dextrine or sometimes even AP or press cement.

I have read that some makers do not glue the toebox to the vamp, or only partially. And recently Tim suggested that the sidelinings should not be glued to the vamp, only the lining. I've also seen, somewhere, the suggestion that the heel stiffener only be glued to the lining.

Can we poll the shoemakers here? How do you do this?

Can anyone give me a reason why they would not want to glue the toe stiffener to the vamp? Or the vamp to the sideliners? Or the vamp to the heel stiffener?

In all my reading and research I have not run across anything definitive about this.

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dearbone · #567 Post by **dearbone** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:43 am

DW,

I assume you know you will get as many different answers as there are shoemakers regarding attachment of toe box,stiffeners and side linings,having said that, As a rule i try to keep away from using cement on upper as much as possible,I used dextrine,but i think it crumbles and turn to dust when it drys,i use polymer paste and adding some wood glue will make stick well as Tim suggested and i use it on side linings and stiffeners and can be as thick as jelly,on suede and cloth shoes i use it only on the lining side,For the toe box i use 3mm split veg tan shoulder leather,i cement it and let it completely dry than i put it in water to soak well,i take it out and let dry,the cemented side remain sticky after soaking and no need for another coat on it,i put my stiffeners and last the shoe and secure the seat,i last the lining and free the top leather to receive the toe box and side linings,i lightly cement the lining for the toe box and i use paste for top of the toe box and on both sides for the side linings and stiffeners,the reason i prefer to cement one side of the toe box(the lining side), is to secure it well because i rasp it further to shape while on the last.

Nasser

romango · #568 Post by **romango** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:18 am

DW, Nasser,

For the toe box, I always glue both sides.

The type of glue depends on the type of shoe I am making. I like the rigid toe box one gets with Hirschkleber or press cement for men's dress shoes but I may make a more flexible toe box for a dance shoe. In this case AP cement is used. For a really flexible toe box, you might use celastic (sp?).

I glue the side linings usually with AP on both sides. I think that I want to prevent the outer leather from blousing independently of the lining. The glue on both sides gives body to the entire area. I have used thin Hirschkleber to make the area have even more body. But usually just AP.

For the heel counter, again it depends on how stiff I want it to be. For a light weight dance shoe, it doesn't neet to be rigid. I always use Hirschkleber here but I might use less. I also always glue both sides.

Maybe it's just me but I don't like the idea my lining and outer slipping around independently.

#569 Post by dw » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:21 am

Nasser, Rick,

Sounds like except for special cases, you both cement or glue both sides of the heel stiffener, the side linings and the toe stiffener.

I do the same for the same reasons you gave Rick...I want the various pieces for move and function together.

I wonder about it though. Seems like Marcel said he only glues the lining side of the heel stiffener (?) and only glues the front half of the toe stiffener to the vamp. I assume that these are just regional differences, but I like to know why folks choose to do it one way or the other. I have occasionally changed the way I was doing something because of the reasons given by another maker, and usually been better satisfied with the results.

PS...maybe it's a mental block or a brain freeze but I still am not sure what "polymer paste" is?

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romango · #570 Post by **romango** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:30 am

I think Marcell glues both sides of the heel stiffener and toe cap. At least that is what I did when in Budspest.

dearbone · #571 Post by **dearbone** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:54 am

DW,

The only part i cement is the bottom part of the toe cap(the lining side, for top of the cap and the rest i use the poly paste,which a wheat base wall paper adhesive and i buy it from the local hardware store.

dearbone · #572 Post by **dearbone** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:12 pm

Not to leave any confusion,the "toe cap" i mentioned above is the "toe stiffener".

Nasser

chuck_deats · #573 Post by **chuck_deats** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:07 am

Thought I would look at the relative stiffness of glued vs. not glued, assuming the vamp, stiffener, and liner are all about the same thickness and give a value of one to bend a single piece of leather.

--------------------------Relative Stiffness
One Layer Vamp------------------------1
Vamp, Liner- Loose---------------------2
Vamp, Stiffener, Liner- Loose-----------3
Vamp, Liner- Glued---------------------4
Liner, Stiffener- Glued – Vamp- Loose---5
Vamp, Stiffener, Liner- Glued-----------9

If you double the thickness of the stiffener, then Vamp, Stiffener, Liner- Glued goes to 16. Don’t think the type of adhesive makes much difference as long as the leather sticks together.

Don’t know what you do with this but seems the only issue would be side stiffeners in the area of the joint.

lancepryor · #574 Post by **lancepryor** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:35 am

DW:

Regarding the toe box, etc., I just reviewed some information I have on that topic, based on the work of one of the Makers in England (but not Pelle).

This fellow used 'paste' (which I assume is Metrotex paste or Gripso polymer paste) for attaching the puff to the lining, and also the top of the puff to the upper.

Also, interestingly, the thickness of this fellow's toe puff must have been less than 1 iron, having been thinned/skived down from 10 iron/13 ounce veg tan leather.

Lance

#575 Post by dw » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:41 am

Lance,

Thanks for the info.

Also, interestingly, the thickness of this fellow's toe puff must have been less than 1 iron, having been thinned/skived down from 10 iron/13 ounce veg tan leather.

That's pretty hard to believe since 1 iron would be in the neighborhood of 1/48th of an inch (12 iron=1/4", 6 iron=1/8", 3 iron=1/16"...). I don't think I would use anything less than 3 iron under any circumstance.

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