Tim,
I have gotten it in Oak Colour.
PK
Lasting
-
djulan
- 2
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:39 am
- Full Name: David Ulan
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
A couple notes on EVA. Cloud is an EVA which has a specific durometer or density - about 35 durometer. It is a relatively low durometer, and easily deformed by heat and repeated impact, such as the body weight on heel strike of heavier walkers. EVA is also available in several higher durometers or densities. A higher durometer for building up of the heel will be more stable. It can also be heated to mold to the last contours.
An alternative similar to Topy is Vibram sole protector which is almost as thin as Topy, and available at all finders. While you are at the finder look at Vibram pyramid crepe for your soling. It has a tread pattern and excellent shock absorption, maybe better than cloud, but is more durable. It works similar to cloud in the shop so if you have used cloud, it's an easy transition using the Vibram Crepe. Neither of these soling alternatives are for dancing, though.
Keep up the good work.
David
A couple notes on EVA. Cloud is an EVA which has a specific durometer or density - about 35 durometer. It is a relatively low durometer, and easily deformed by heat and repeated impact, such as the body weight on heel strike of heavier walkers. EVA is also available in several higher durometers or densities. A higher durometer for building up of the heel will be more stable. It can also be heated to mold to the last contours.
An alternative similar to Topy is Vibram sole protector which is almost as thin as Topy, and available at all finders. While you are at the finder look at Vibram pyramid crepe for your soling. It has a tread pattern and excellent shock absorption, maybe better than cloud, but is more durable. It works similar to cloud in the shop so if you have used cloud, it's an easy transition using the Vibram Crepe. Neither of these soling alternatives are for dancing, though.
Keep up the good work.
David
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
- Been Liked: 2 times
Re: Lasting
Been re-reading the above posts. Over the weekend I went to the shoe finder, and also stopped by Erick's sale. I bought something from Erick that may be similar to Topy -- it's about 1/16" thick or maybe slightly thicker, with a fine texture.
Tim, my original idea was to make a stacked leather heel with a synthetic toplift. For the rest of the shoe I was planning to use a thin layer of Cloud (for shock absorption in the forefoot) and then a layer of flexible textured soling material. I thought the leather heel would be more stable than EVA (I have wobbly ankles!).
I did put a layer of veg-tan on the bottom of the lasts before I put the insoles on, so that I can remove it and replace it with padding or an orthotic inside the shoe. (I did this with my first pair, too.)
My latest soling plan is to make a wedge heel out of Soleflex, which I just purchased in an 18 iron. I will have to use two layers of it to get to the 5/8" heel height (I Sachs doesn't have it thicker than 1/2 inch, and am not sure if I should cement 2 layers together and them put it on the sole, or do one layer, grind it, and then apply the second layer and grind it. (Advice welcome!) Then I plan to put a layer of textured soling material the full length of the shoe. The only additional padding at the forefoot would be whatever I put inside the shoe.
However, this plan could change...Partly depends on whether my grinding set-up works. Making some progress on the dust covers. If it works, I'll post pictures of the contraption. If it doesn't, I'll be in trouble!
Jenny
Tim, my original idea was to make a stacked leather heel with a synthetic toplift. For the rest of the shoe I was planning to use a thin layer of Cloud (for shock absorption in the forefoot) and then a layer of flexible textured soling material. I thought the leather heel would be more stable than EVA (I have wobbly ankles!).
I did put a layer of veg-tan on the bottom of the lasts before I put the insoles on, so that I can remove it and replace it with padding or an orthotic inside the shoe. (I did this with my first pair, too.)
My latest soling plan is to make a wedge heel out of Soleflex, which I just purchased in an 18 iron. I will have to use two layers of it to get to the 5/8" heel height (I Sachs doesn't have it thicker than 1/2 inch, and am not sure if I should cement 2 layers together and them put it on the sole, or do one layer, grind it, and then apply the second layer and grind it. (Advice welcome!) Then I plan to put a layer of textured soling material the full length of the shoe. The only additional padding at the forefoot would be whatever I put inside the shoe.
However, this plan could change...Partly depends on whether my grinding set-up works. Making some progress on the dust covers. If it works, I'll post pictures of the contraption. If it doesn't, I'll be in trouble!
Jenny
-
artzend
- 7
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Tim Skyrme
- Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
- Been Liked: 2 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I would advise against putting anything on the bottom of the last before lasting in most cases, as it can upset the balance of the shoe, but in this case it is probably ok. Normally I would advise building up the top of the last to compensate for the extra material being inserted, especially if orthoses are involved. They add too much bulk in most cases, just stand on the orthotic when doing your foot measurements and include the extra measurement in your last building. This leaves the bottom of the last alone and does not increase heel height as normally happens when you build up under the joint. If what you have done works for you then don't change anything, I am just passing on what I recommend and there is no hard and fast rule.
The padding need not reach right to the front of the last and may be ground off under the toes. This would give you a bit more toe room.
You could be right about the flexibility of the eva as a heel material in your case but it could be worth trying in future as 1" is not much.
There are a couple of points about the heel, one is that if you stick a lift onto your sole and grind it you can get the top of it flat (it will be slightly rounded when stuck to the sole) and the flat surface can be ground a bit more at the front than the back so that you can put the last lift on and not have to grind it level.
If you make the heel away from the last you will have to cup the top to fit to the bottom of the sole for it to sit right. The bonus to this method is that the heel breast can be finished easily.
The lift will need more taken off the front than the back if the next lift is to sit parallel to the ground. The back of the seat will be higher than the front of the heel when it is finished. The shoe will slope forward, but the top-piece must sit flat on the ground, or be slightly raised at the back.
Once the lift has been flattened from side to side right out to the edges, a level surface must be made from front to back and all grain surface removed so that adhesive will attach easily.
If you consider that the heel is level you may insert the top piece into position and press down hard at the back of the last. The last lift must be levelled properly before continuing.
I always recommend that you use two coats of glue before sticking soles etc together. Wait until the first coat is completely dry before applying the second. This allows the glue to key into porous material and gives a better bond. Apply heat to one of the surfaces to reactivate the glue and when it is sticky, they put the two sections together and hammer or press together.
Always take the shiny top surface off any soling before gluing on heels or topy.
If you are making a wedge sole then doing it layer by layer until you are happy with the way it sits on the ground is better than making a wedge by itself. It is hard to get two wedges the same, although you can grind the front of the wedge in a bit more than normal and cut from the back of the wedge right through to the front, and when placing it on the sole, you can manipulate the edges so they fit exactly to the edge of the sole. Once the protective sole layer is in place this slit is not important, firstly it runs down the length of the shoe in an area that doesn't flex, and the sole stops any dirt from getting near it.
I would recommend putting a separate top piece on the heel, you can sink it into the heel to bring it to the same height as the soling but it will wear better on the heel than topy does and you will have to replace it eventually anyway.
You can use plumbing fittings to extract the dust if you have a machine for sucking.
Sorry I haven't worked out how to get images into a post yet or what I am saying about the levelling of lifts would make more sense.
I will work on that and see if I can sort it.
Tim
I would advise against putting anything on the bottom of the last before lasting in most cases, as it can upset the balance of the shoe, but in this case it is probably ok. Normally I would advise building up the top of the last to compensate for the extra material being inserted, especially if orthoses are involved. They add too much bulk in most cases, just stand on the orthotic when doing your foot measurements and include the extra measurement in your last building. This leaves the bottom of the last alone and does not increase heel height as normally happens when you build up under the joint. If what you have done works for you then don't change anything, I am just passing on what I recommend and there is no hard and fast rule.
The padding need not reach right to the front of the last and may be ground off under the toes. This would give you a bit more toe room.
You could be right about the flexibility of the eva as a heel material in your case but it could be worth trying in future as 1" is not much.
There are a couple of points about the heel, one is that if you stick a lift onto your sole and grind it you can get the top of it flat (it will be slightly rounded when stuck to the sole) and the flat surface can be ground a bit more at the front than the back so that you can put the last lift on and not have to grind it level.
If you make the heel away from the last you will have to cup the top to fit to the bottom of the sole for it to sit right. The bonus to this method is that the heel breast can be finished easily.
The lift will need more taken off the front than the back if the next lift is to sit parallel to the ground. The back of the seat will be higher than the front of the heel when it is finished. The shoe will slope forward, but the top-piece must sit flat on the ground, or be slightly raised at the back.
Once the lift has been flattened from side to side right out to the edges, a level surface must be made from front to back and all grain surface removed so that adhesive will attach easily.
If you consider that the heel is level you may insert the top piece into position and press down hard at the back of the last. The last lift must be levelled properly before continuing.
I always recommend that you use two coats of glue before sticking soles etc together. Wait until the first coat is completely dry before applying the second. This allows the glue to key into porous material and gives a better bond. Apply heat to one of the surfaces to reactivate the glue and when it is sticky, they put the two sections together and hammer or press together.
Always take the shiny top surface off any soling before gluing on heels or topy.
If you are making a wedge sole then doing it layer by layer until you are happy with the way it sits on the ground is better than making a wedge by itself. It is hard to get two wedges the same, although you can grind the front of the wedge in a bit more than normal and cut from the back of the wedge right through to the front, and when placing it on the sole, you can manipulate the edges so they fit exactly to the edge of the sole. Once the protective sole layer is in place this slit is not important, firstly it runs down the length of the shoe in an area that doesn't flex, and the sole stops any dirt from getting near it.
I would recommend putting a separate top piece on the heel, you can sink it into the heel to bring it to the same height as the soling but it will wear better on the heel than topy does and you will have to replace it eventually anyway.
You can use plumbing fittings to extract the dust if you have a machine for sucking.
Sorry I haven't worked out how to get images into a post yet or what I am saying about the levelling of lifts would make more sense.
I will work on that and see if I can sort it.
Tim
-
relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I would not worry about the stability of the Soleflex. I use it a lot for heel lifts and unless your planning on gaining some weight (over 300 Lbs.) you will be fine with it. I'm not sure if soleflex as a brand is available down under, it's a regular EVA made by Soletech out of Salem, MA US. Where Cloud has a density of 30-40 A-shore, Soleflex is denser at 50-55 and then there is even denser Soleflex firm up to 70-75 A-shore but that gets heavy. I just checked my shop and the soleflex is available in 30 Iron (5/8) but not all vendors may stock it. Nothing wrong with using 2 layers of 18 Iron and taking a little off. As Tim mentioned you would want to apply one layer, grind smooth and add the next. You also may want to consider having a thicker and better wearing top lift (heel piece) since the heels wear down quicker, again just like Tim mentioned.
Sounds like the material you bought for your soles is very thin, depending on the look you are going for it may seen to thin and the shoe will look like it does not have much of a sole or looks off-balance. In that case you could add a layer of Soleflex and grind it down to about ¼" before adding your thin outsole. You may even take it down a little more under the toes to give yourself a little more roll. Remember to add to the heel height whatever amount you put under the forefoot so not to change the pitch.
Tim, I'm having a hard time with the idea of building up the top of the last to get the extra volume for the padding. If you build up the top you will have to bevel the edges and smooth them into the model of the last. How do you know how much material you have added and how much extra room to have for the padding?
If I add a 1/4” liner under the last before putting on the insole I know I can take out that 1/4” and replace it or even leave it in place. I hear what your saying about changing the heel height if you only put the extra liner under the forefoot but if you now your customer needs it you just select the appropriate last with 1/4” extra heel height if you decide you want to add 1/4” under the forefoot.
Am I missing something that would make building up the top of the last easier / better?
David,
I've just been looking at some of that Vibram Pyramid crepe cause the color is just what I need and I can't find it in regular EVA. Do you have any experience heat molding that into a shape? It seems to have an elasticity to it that makes me wonder if it will take and hold a shape when heat molding like EVA does. I'm planing on trying it for a cofferdam on a shoe for modifications. For soling I can see that it would be more durable than EVA and it has a nice bounce to it for shock absorption. Any feedback is appreciated.
One more small comment on the cementing process. I agree with Tim on using two coast of cement on porous materials such as EVA and leather. On rubbers such as the Topy or similar I only use one coat. The way I was taught is that the cement is very strong binding two materials together but by itself is weak and using to much cement will cause a weak bond.
To demonstrate we were to glue some pieces of rubber together and let it cure. Try pulling those apart with your hands and you won't be able to, you need some pliers. Next take some all purpose cement in pour it on some paper, let it dry. Now pull on each end of the piece of synthetic residue and it will easily break.
Tim, I know you haven't been around here all that long and I don't remember if I extended an “official” welcome so here it goes; Welcome and glad your with us here. From your profile it sounds like you have an interesting and diverse background in shoemaking all over the world. Are you still in Adelaide? Must have been great to work with George Koleff, I just received his last design & Making manual. Have not had a chance to go over it in depth but on the service it has a lot in common with the way I was taught.
Hang around here for some time and make yourself comfortable, once you get to know us you'll realize we may bark but won't bite
Rob
I would not worry about the stability of the Soleflex. I use it a lot for heel lifts and unless your planning on gaining some weight (over 300 Lbs.) you will be fine with it. I'm not sure if soleflex as a brand is available down under, it's a regular EVA made by Soletech out of Salem, MA US. Where Cloud has a density of 30-40 A-shore, Soleflex is denser at 50-55 and then there is even denser Soleflex firm up to 70-75 A-shore but that gets heavy. I just checked my shop and the soleflex is available in 30 Iron (5/8) but not all vendors may stock it. Nothing wrong with using 2 layers of 18 Iron and taking a little off. As Tim mentioned you would want to apply one layer, grind smooth and add the next. You also may want to consider having a thicker and better wearing top lift (heel piece) since the heels wear down quicker, again just like Tim mentioned.
Sounds like the material you bought for your soles is very thin, depending on the look you are going for it may seen to thin and the shoe will look like it does not have much of a sole or looks off-balance. In that case you could add a layer of Soleflex and grind it down to about ¼" before adding your thin outsole. You may even take it down a little more under the toes to give yourself a little more roll. Remember to add to the heel height whatever amount you put under the forefoot so not to change the pitch.
Tim, I'm having a hard time with the idea of building up the top of the last to get the extra volume for the padding. If you build up the top you will have to bevel the edges and smooth them into the model of the last. How do you know how much material you have added and how much extra room to have for the padding?
If I add a 1/4” liner under the last before putting on the insole I know I can take out that 1/4” and replace it or even leave it in place. I hear what your saying about changing the heel height if you only put the extra liner under the forefoot but if you now your customer needs it you just select the appropriate last with 1/4” extra heel height if you decide you want to add 1/4” under the forefoot.
Am I missing something that would make building up the top of the last easier / better?
David,
I've just been looking at some of that Vibram Pyramid crepe cause the color is just what I need and I can't find it in regular EVA. Do you have any experience heat molding that into a shape? It seems to have an elasticity to it that makes me wonder if it will take and hold a shape when heat molding like EVA does. I'm planing on trying it for a cofferdam on a shoe for modifications. For soling I can see that it would be more durable than EVA and it has a nice bounce to it for shock absorption. Any feedback is appreciated.
One more small comment on the cementing process. I agree with Tim on using two coast of cement on porous materials such as EVA and leather. On rubbers such as the Topy or similar I only use one coat. The way I was taught is that the cement is very strong binding two materials together but by itself is weak and using to much cement will cause a weak bond.
To demonstrate we were to glue some pieces of rubber together and let it cure. Try pulling those apart with your hands and you won't be able to, you need some pliers. Next take some all purpose cement in pour it on some paper, let it dry. Now pull on each end of the piece of synthetic residue and it will easily break.
Tim, I know you haven't been around here all that long and I don't remember if I extended an “official” welcome so here it goes; Welcome and glad your with us here. From your profile it sounds like you have an interesting and diverse background in shoemaking all over the world. Are you still in Adelaide? Must have been great to work with George Koleff, I just received his last design & Making manual. Have not had a chance to go over it in depth but on the service it has a lot in common with the way I was taught.
Hang around here for some time and make yourself comfortable, once you get to know us you'll realize we may bark but won't bite
Rob
-
artzend
- 7
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Tim Skyrme
- Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
- Been Liked: 2 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
Rob,
I will try to answer the questions in order but no guarantees.
For a nice soft sole that is probably better than eva, microcellular rubber is an alternative. It attaches well, is easy to use, comes in a few thicknesses and works well as a mid sole to attach Topy to. It is better for heel lifts than eva which doesn't tend to be very substantial to my mind. Like eva you really need to attach topy for wear, or wear it until the surface skin wears off and then put the topy on. Eva is the same, once the skin wears off the sole wears away rapidly.
It is harder to get topy to attach to eva than rubber, I suspect because of the plasticisers used in eva.
The build up on top of the last avoids any problems associated with altered heel heights etc. I only built up on the bottom of the last if changing heel heights. You get your measurements from standing on the orthotic before measuring the foot, and these measurements are then transferred to the building up of the last. Yes you have to blend the build up into the last shape, but that is just par for the course in most cases.
I don't have a last with me that I can test this on but both George and I had this discussion some years back and came to the same conclusion, that you leave the bottom alone unless it needs attention.
I had very few ranges of lasts and mostly chosen for heel heights, not extra depth. Once you have made a shoe on a last you have built up, you can remove the build up and re use the last.
I always tell people to use light coats of glue, you should not need to use thick coats or it will not work sufficiently as you say. The first is to key in and the second to provide the final attaching. If you re-activate the glue before bonding you won't get it to come apart. Re activation is the secret to this, but only one side needs to be heated.
No I left Adelaide and moved to a tiny village on the coast of Queensland between Bundaberg and Gladstone, just where the Great Barrier Reef starts. I now do an online surf report for Agnes Water every day.
I hope that makes sense.
Tim
I will try to answer the questions in order but no guarantees.
For a nice soft sole that is probably better than eva, microcellular rubber is an alternative. It attaches well, is easy to use, comes in a few thicknesses and works well as a mid sole to attach Topy to. It is better for heel lifts than eva which doesn't tend to be very substantial to my mind. Like eva you really need to attach topy for wear, or wear it until the surface skin wears off and then put the topy on. Eva is the same, once the skin wears off the sole wears away rapidly.
It is harder to get topy to attach to eva than rubber, I suspect because of the plasticisers used in eva.
The build up on top of the last avoids any problems associated with altered heel heights etc. I only built up on the bottom of the last if changing heel heights. You get your measurements from standing on the orthotic before measuring the foot, and these measurements are then transferred to the building up of the last. Yes you have to blend the build up into the last shape, but that is just par for the course in most cases.
I don't have a last with me that I can test this on but both George and I had this discussion some years back and came to the same conclusion, that you leave the bottom alone unless it needs attention.
I had very few ranges of lasts and mostly chosen for heel heights, not extra depth. Once you have made a shoe on a last you have built up, you can remove the build up and re use the last.
I always tell people to use light coats of glue, you should not need to use thick coats or it will not work sufficiently as you say. The first is to key in and the second to provide the final attaching. If you re-activate the glue before bonding you won't get it to come apart. Re activation is the secret to this, but only one side needs to be heated.
No I left Adelaide and moved to a tiny village on the coast of Queensland between Bundaberg and Gladstone, just where the Great Barrier Reef starts. I now do an online surf report for Agnes Water every day.
I hope that makes sense.
Tim
-
djulan
- 2
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:39 am
- Full Name: David Ulan
Re: Lasting
Robert,
I have heat molded the Vibram Pyramid crepe many times, and it forms well. (It makes a cushy orthotic, too) It is a little soft for a cofferdam, unless it's for a light person. I would first mold a soleflex base - a tad undersized (for stability against ground reaction forces) for the cofferdam, then cover that with 12 iron Vibram of the right color. Worth noting is that other Vibram crepe like products such as the Harvard sole etc, heat form well, too.
Hope that helps
David
I have heat molded the Vibram Pyramid crepe many times, and it forms well. (It makes a cushy orthotic, too) It is a little soft for a cofferdam, unless it's for a light person. I would first mold a soleflex base - a tad undersized (for stability against ground reaction forces) for the cofferdam, then cover that with 12 iron Vibram of the right color. Worth noting is that other Vibram crepe like products such as the Harvard sole etc, heat form well, too.
Hope that helps
David
-
paul
- 8
- Posts: 1038
- Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
- Full Name: Paul Krause
- Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
- Been Liked: 14 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
I am completely unfamiliar with a cofferdam.
Could one of you please tell me what that is? I get it that it's a shoe correction of some kind, but I've not heard the term. Maybe over in "Correcting Common Foot Problems?
Just goes to show, ya gotta keep in touch.
Thank you,
PK
Could one of you please tell me what that is? I get it that it's a shoe correction of some kind, but I've not heard the term. Maybe over in "Correcting Common Foot Problems?
Just goes to show, ya gotta keep in touch.
Thank you,
PK
-
relferink
Re: Lasting
Tim,
From your description it sounds like the microcellular rubber you refer to is something known here under the brand name Soleflex. It's denser than Cloud, the most common EVA and is easy to work with. Not that I have problems with adhering EVA as long as it does not have a component like thermo rubber to it. Some of the stuff coming out of the far east seems to have more “plastic” in it and does not glue well but regular all purpose will take care of straight EVA just fine.
I agree that when you alter a last to come to a foot measurement the work should (mostly) be done on the top of the last so not to change the heel height and pitch. Adding a layer of padding under the foot is however not part of your measurements. I must have misunderstood you there since I was wondering how you figure out how much to add to the circumference to get 1/4” extra room on the bottom for padding. Do or did you mostly use stock last or custom lasts for your work? When I make custom lasts I do not want to incorporate someone's existing orthotic unless it's part of a leg brace, I rather make a contoured last and make an orthotic footbed to the last with the shoe made over it but that's just my preference. When working with stock lasts that you use not exclusively for one customer you can indeed remove the buildups and re-use the last.
I'm with you on the is more when it comes to glue but in the experience I've had working with people most want to lay it on thick and have things come apart later on, even people with an extensive shoe repair background. I'm sure there are exceptions to this but I have not met many.
Sounds like a great place, I found the site, those are some nice pictures of the beach. I think the HCC should consider your place for next years general meeting
Thanks David, using the Soleflex as a base for stability and than cover with the correct color Vibram seems like a great idea since I was afraid that the Pyramid Vibram would be to soft and flexible. If the customer shows up for her Tuesday appointment I'll post a picture of the finished shoe. I like working with the Vibram Harvard sole and I do heat it, mostly when I want it to conform to a not totally flat service.
Rob
From your description it sounds like the microcellular rubber you refer to is something known here under the brand name Soleflex. It's denser than Cloud, the most common EVA and is easy to work with. Not that I have problems with adhering EVA as long as it does not have a component like thermo rubber to it. Some of the stuff coming out of the far east seems to have more “plastic” in it and does not glue well but regular all purpose will take care of straight EVA just fine.
I agree that when you alter a last to come to a foot measurement the work should (mostly) be done on the top of the last so not to change the heel height and pitch. Adding a layer of padding under the foot is however not part of your measurements. I must have misunderstood you there since I was wondering how you figure out how much to add to the circumference to get 1/4” extra room on the bottom for padding. Do or did you mostly use stock last or custom lasts for your work? When I make custom lasts I do not want to incorporate someone's existing orthotic unless it's part of a leg brace, I rather make a contoured last and make an orthotic footbed to the last with the shoe made over it but that's just my preference. When working with stock lasts that you use not exclusively for one customer you can indeed remove the buildups and re-use the last.
I'm with you on the is more when it comes to glue but in the experience I've had working with people most want to lay it on thick and have things come apart later on, even people with an extensive shoe repair background. I'm sure there are exceptions to this but I have not met many.
No I left Adelaide and moved to a tiny village on the coast of Queensland between Bundaberg and Gladstone, just where the Great Barrier Reef starts. I now do an online surf report for Agnes Water every day.
Sounds like a great place, I found the site, those are some nice pictures of the beach. I think the HCC should consider your place for next years general meeting
Thanks David, using the Soleflex as a base for stability and than cover with the correct color Vibram seems like a great idea since I was afraid that the Pyramid Vibram would be to soft and flexible. If the customer shows up for her Tuesday appointment I'll post a picture of the finished shoe. I like working with the Vibram Harvard sole and I do heat it, mostly when I want it to conform to a not totally flat service.
Rob
-
artzend
- 7
- Posts: 519
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
- Full Name: Tim Skyrme
- Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
- Been Liked: 2 times
- Contact:
Re: Lasting
Rob,
If you want to add a layer of padding under the foot, you can add that thickness to the top of the last too. I used standard lasts that I altered to fit each foot. I never made any lasts, I looked at that once and decided that I didn't need to. For what I did I very seldom had to alter a last so that it could not be used for anyone else.
Just roll up when you are ready for the meeting, the barbie will be fired up.
Tim
If you want to add a layer of padding under the foot, you can add that thickness to the top of the last too. I used standard lasts that I altered to fit each foot. I never made any lasts, I looked at that once and decided that I didn't need to. For what I did I very seldom had to alter a last so that it could not be used for anyone else.
Just roll up when you are ready for the meeting, the barbie will be fired up.
Tim
-
relferink
Re: Lasting
Tim,
Thanks mate, my sister lives only a couple of hours down the beach, if you supply the barbie I'll bring a couple of brews
.
Rob
Thanks mate, my sister lives only a couple of hours down the beach, if you supply the barbie I'll bring a couple of brews
. Rob
-
jenny_fleishman
- 7
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm
- Full Name: Jenny Fleishman
- Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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Re: Lasting
Do I gather that it is wise to heat almost all synthetic soling materials before applying them? I didn't realize you could heat the textured outsole stuff.
What heating methods do you use? I have a heat gun and a convection toaster oven. Both have degree settings. My next step will be working on the Soleflex wedge using the 18 iron thickness. One person told me a heat gun is his preferred method. If doing that, what would be a good temperature for the heat gun? If the oven is used, what temperature and how long? Is it more difficult getting a good result with thicker materials like the 18 iron Soleflex because it is hard to heat it all the way through?
When I was attempting to make my own orthotics I found that by the time I heated the materials enough to shape around the heel area, they were shrinking significantly.
Have my grinding system ready to try this weekend. Hoping I can use it, and the shop vac, without blowing the electrical circuits. Gotta figure out which outlets are on the same circuits, and remember to turn off my air conditioners!
Jenny
What heating methods do you use? I have a heat gun and a convection toaster oven. Both have degree settings. My next step will be working on the Soleflex wedge using the 18 iron thickness. One person told me a heat gun is his preferred method. If doing that, what would be a good temperature for the heat gun? If the oven is used, what temperature and how long? Is it more difficult getting a good result with thicker materials like the 18 iron Soleflex because it is hard to heat it all the way through?
When I was attempting to make my own orthotics I found that by the time I heated the materials enough to shape around the heel area, they were shrinking significantly.
Have my grinding system ready to try this weekend. Hoping I can use it, and the shop vac, without blowing the electrical circuits. Gotta figure out which outlets are on the same circuits, and remember to turn off my air conditioners!
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I consider that you must re activate glue with heat before putting the two surfaces together. Only one surface needs to be heated. Generally this is the some because if you have used glue to attach the upper, the heat will cause it to let go.
Unless we are talking about two different things here, no you don't require the heat for moulding the sole to the upper, it should be flexible enough. Just heat the glued surface until the glue becomes tacky. That is, providing you have let the glue dry completely before prceding to this stage. You will be able to feel the difference between just tacky glue and re activated.
By all means use the toaster oven, but face the glue to the heat, preferably the top element or it will stick to the bars if placed face down, and keep watching it, don't let it burn, the glue will get tacky long before that. You should not need to heat through everything for a sole, so only use one element. The heat gun is ok too, but I always used a bar heater in a box as I didn't have a toaster oven, it should look the same.
Tim
I consider that you must re activate glue with heat before putting the two surfaces together. Only one surface needs to be heated. Generally this is the some because if you have used glue to attach the upper, the heat will cause it to let go.
Unless we are talking about two different things here, no you don't require the heat for moulding the sole to the upper, it should be flexible enough. Just heat the glued surface until the glue becomes tacky. That is, providing you have let the glue dry completely before prceding to this stage. You will be able to feel the difference between just tacky glue and re activated.
By all means use the toaster oven, but face the glue to the heat, preferably the top element or it will stick to the bars if placed face down, and keep watching it, don't let it burn, the glue will get tacky long before that. You should not need to heat through everything for a sole, so only use one element. The heat gun is ok too, but I always used a bar heater in a box as I didn't have a toaster oven, it should look the same.
Tim
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
I like to heat the first layer going against the insole and underlay, when it's nice and plyable it will contact the entire bottom of the shoe, no air spaces that could cause squeaking. You can get the same result by hammering it down but when the EVA is warm and cools down in the shape it will remember it's shape. I'm sure I have mentioned my preference for a convection oven before, it just heats the material more evenly if you try to make it plyable. The Soletech website lists a temperature of 275 for 2 minutes on Soleflex for your wedge heel. Once you have a flat bottom and just want to apply your Topy like wearing service just activate the glue with a heat gun. (about 200F should do just fine)
Once the material starts shrinking your to hot or in the oven for to long. You may loose a little to shrinkage but it should be less than 1/2" on a 10" piece if even that much.
Rule of thumb: heat the material if you expect it to stretch or contour and stay that way. If the service is uneven such as the shank cover can be when you attach the sole it will be good to heat the material so it will conform, if it's a flat service there is not much of a benefit to it.
You asked if using the 18 Iron material was difficult because of it's thickness? Truth be told it's all relative, once you try to do the same with 30 Iron the 18 seems like a walk in the park
. Seriously it can be done well but it takes a little practice and that's exactly what you are doing so keep up the good work!
Just my
Rob
I like to heat the first layer going against the insole and underlay, when it's nice and plyable it will contact the entire bottom of the shoe, no air spaces that could cause squeaking. You can get the same result by hammering it down but when the EVA is warm and cools down in the shape it will remember it's shape. I'm sure I have mentioned my preference for a convection oven before, it just heats the material more evenly if you try to make it plyable. The Soletech website lists a temperature of 275 for 2 minutes on Soleflex for your wedge heel. Once you have a flat bottom and just want to apply your Topy like wearing service just activate the glue with a heat gun. (about 200F should do just fine)
Once the material starts shrinking your to hot or in the oven for to long. You may loose a little to shrinkage but it should be less than 1/2" on a 10" piece if even that much.
Rule of thumb: heat the material if you expect it to stretch or contour and stay that way. If the service is uneven such as the shank cover can be when you attach the sole it will be good to heat the material so it will conform, if it's a flat service there is not much of a benefit to it.
You asked if using the 18 Iron material was difficult because of it's thickness? Truth be told it's all relative, once you try to do the same with 30 Iron the 18 seems like a walk in the park
. Seriously it can be done well but it takes a little practice and that's exactly what you are doing so keep up the good work! Just my
Rob
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Hope to get this done this weekend!
Just some comments on how to add depth to the last for the orthotic. The reason I add to the bottom, is that putting the orthotic inside a shoe raises the foot and then the top of the shoe around the heel area hits my sensitive heel at an even worse place than without the orthotic. Once I have my lasts adjusted for my heel to be comfortable, I don't want to change the fit by raising my heel inside the shoe with the orthotic.
Question...If you add the same depth all the way along the bottom of the last, why would this change the heel height?
Jenny
Just some comments on how to add depth to the last for the orthotic. The reason I add to the bottom, is that putting the orthotic inside a shoe raises the foot and then the top of the shoe around the heel area hits my sensitive heel at an even worse place than without the orthotic. Once I have my lasts adjusted for my heel to be comfortable, I don't want to change the fit by raising my heel inside the shoe with the orthotic.
Question...If you add the same depth all the way along the bottom of the last, why would this change the heel height?
Jenny
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Adding depth to the whole last will not change the heel height but as we were discussing padding, most commonly that's needed under the forefoot so if you add 1/4" under the forefoot only, you effectively lower the heel by 1/4". Depending on what padding you use you can reason that it will compress at least partially when you put weight on it so it's not even an exact science. That's were experience comes in.
Rob
Adding depth to the whole last will not change the heel height but as we were discussing padding, most commonly that's needed under the forefoot so if you add 1/4" under the forefoot only, you effectively lower the heel by 1/4". Depending on what padding you use you can reason that it will compress at least partially when you put weight on it so it's not even an exact science. That's were experience comes in.
Rob
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Rob is right, it is not an exact science. If the topline hitting your foot is a problem, then raise the back height mark on your last to allow for the extra depth required.
You could also use a higher padded topline like on joggers so that the back of your foot is cushioned and the topline is around 10mm/7/16" higher than normal anyway.
You can also alter the shape of the back of your last if need be too, this may help clear the problem area.
Tim
Rob is right, it is not an exact science. If the topline hitting your foot is a problem, then raise the back height mark on your last to allow for the extra depth required.
You could also use a higher padded topline like on joggers so that the back of your foot is cushioned and the topline is around 10mm/7/16" higher than normal anyway.
You can also alter the shape of the back of your last if need be too, this may help clear the problem area.
Tim
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
As I am altering my lasts to look more like the below drawing, I am wondering how, when you last the upper, you get it to cling to the curves...I would expect as you pull the leather tight it would want to form a straight line like this, leaving a gap:
How do you get it to lay snug against a concave curve?
Jenny
(Message edited by Jenny Fleishman on June 10, 2007)
How do you get it to lay snug against a concave curve?
Jenny
(Message edited by Jenny Fleishman on June 10, 2007)
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relferink
Re: Lasting
Jenny,
The upper will lay against the last smoothly in spite of the concave shape because the tension on you quarters runs lengthwise along the last, not top to bottom. Sure you pull the upper tight from the bottom but you really should not put much pressure on it or you will pull it down to much. When lasting you also want to apply slightly more pressure on your quarter's lining to pull it in to the last and keep the top line from gaping when done.
This is also why it is important that the cone is evenly in width front to back, if it's wider in the front you may have a problem getting the upper smoothly and securely against the last.
Rob
The upper will lay against the last smoothly in spite of the concave shape because the tension on you quarters runs lengthwise along the last, not top to bottom. Sure you pull the upper tight from the bottom but you really should not put much pressure on it or you will pull it down to much. When lasting you also want to apply slightly more pressure on your quarter's lining to pull it in to the last and keep the top line from gaping when done.
This is also why it is important that the cone is evenly in width front to back, if it's wider in the front you may have a problem getting the upper smoothly and securely against the last.
Rob
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jenny_fleishman
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Re: Lasting
Skiving question--how much is too much? I will soon be putting together the uppers for my next shoes. Where the quarter and vamp linings overlap, I have skived quite a bit, but when I lay one on top of the other, the overlap area is still thicker than just one layer of the lining leather.
Should I be skiving it to the point where the overlapping area is no thicker than the non-overlapping area? Or is the idea to skive it somewhat, but skive the edges so they can't be felt, even though the overlap area would still be somewhat thicker?
The last picture in my May 14 post above also shows the overlap area of the outer kidskin leather showing noticably. Obviously I need to do something differently! Thanks.
Jenny
Should I be skiving it to the point where the overlapping area is no thicker than the non-overlapping area? Or is the idea to skive it somewhat, but skive the edges so they can't be felt, even though the overlap area would still be somewhat thicker?
The last picture in my May 14 post above also shows the overlap area of the outer kidskin leather showing noticably. Obviously I need to do something differently! Thanks.
Jenny
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artzend
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
If you can do it, the skive should be deep enough to avoid being seen. The edge must be skived to a feather but the depth of the skive may need to be increased slightly.
What you have pictured is not too bad. Kid skin is really light and will probably show more than some other skins. The only thing to really worry about is not skiving the edge enough.
Tim
If you can do it, the skive should be deep enough to avoid being seen. The edge must be skived to a feather but the depth of the skive may need to be increased slightly.
What you have pictured is not too bad. Kid skin is really light and will probably show more than some other skins. The only thing to really worry about is not skiving the edge enough.
Tim
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dw
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Re: Lasting
Jenny,
Tim's spot-on in my opinion. The most important thing is that the under edge be skived to a feather--so that it all but disappears off the edge.
Ideally, I can understand how one might want to have both layers of leather form the same substance as one layer, but in reality and in actual fact, that is almost never possible. The overlaying edge--the seam edge--cannot be skived to a feather and retain any strength, and at the same time, it must lie over leather that is nearly full thickness in order to have any strength in the seam. And if you turn the edge??? Well right there you should be at, or very nearly at, full substance with your finished turned edge.
So, my advice is to skive the under layer to a feather and don't worry about it.
BTW, I use a five-eights inch seam allowance (probably more than most) and yet...or maybe because...my skives rarely show.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Tim's spot-on in my opinion. The most important thing is that the under edge be skived to a feather--so that it all but disappears off the edge.
Ideally, I can understand how one might want to have both layers of leather form the same substance as one layer, but in reality and in actual fact, that is almost never possible. The overlaying edge--the seam edge--cannot be skived to a feather and retain any strength, and at the same time, it must lie over leather that is nearly full thickness in order to have any strength in the seam. And if you turn the edge??? Well right there you should be at, or very nearly at, full substance with your finished turned edge.
So, my advice is to skive the under layer to a feather and don't worry about it.
BTW, I use a five-eights inch seam allowance (probably more than most) and yet...or maybe because...my skives rarely show.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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j1a2g3
Re: Lasting
I have a few questions.
The first one being, do you glue your side reinforcements in before you last or after lasting, like you do with the toe box and heel counter?
Also, do most of you glue your lining totally too your upper? If you do, is it before lasting or after?
Thanks in advance for your help, Joel
The first one being, do you glue your side reinforcements in before you last or after lasting, like you do with the toe box and heel counter?
Also, do most of you glue your lining totally too your upper? If you do, is it before lasting or after?
Thanks in advance for your help, Joel