THE GOOD OLD DAYS?

[SharonKudrle]

From what you've written, it would be most correct to wear an open sided pont levee style. Should they be welted all around? Would a spring heel be best with a single layer heel on top of that to prevent wearing out the sole? I know cork was used to insulate some shoes, but I don't know where to get layers of inner cork bark, its all glued mush now as far as I know which wouldn't be anything like the originals. Should I use EVA foam? Did they use cork on the Vasa? How were the uppers closed at the side and back? Thank you in advance!

[das]

While open sides do dominate, if you really are averse to them I'd actually recommend you make the super-simple London mudlark one-piece upper (only a back seam), whipped-in heel stiffener, no tongue, and latchets cut integrally from the vamp portion. A very quick shoe to make, dead accurate, and nobody else will have them If you want the same, but with added tongue, the middle photo of the B 71 1620s shoes.

Yes, welted all round. See Goubitz: 17thc welts were upper-weight leather, not beveled or skived at the edge, and rather than sticking straight out like later ones, the are rather "S" shaped in cross section as he illustrates.

Maybe be less "fashion-forward" for 1620, like the conservative folk you're reenacting--a single spring lift under the outer sole (not a higher multi-layered spring heel, PITA to make, requires a few tricks), and a "prophylactic heel patch", as Olaf calls them, on top of the outer sole in advance of wear on a new-made shoe. There's a dead flat open-side shoe, c.1660, from Scotto's Dock site (Bostonian Hotel), which should be much earlier by its style--some Massachusetts folk were into "retro".

If you want insulation/water barrier between insole and outer sole, go with a couple of layers of birch bark as bottom filling. You have plenty up there in N.E. The Vasa has tons of boots and shoes with naver (birch bark) midsoles and bottom fill. No EVA in 1620

Most 17th open-sided shoes side seams were round closed inside (invisible outside), but back seams round closed outside for ease of repair, increased comfort, and less damaging to hose.

I'd find a chunk of 5-5.5 oz. veg, nice medium "tobacco" brown for uppers, and make the mudlark or B 71s myself

[SharonKudrle]

Okay. What I think I understand so far in a summary from what you've written for construction of a reasonable 1620 repro. is:
5 to 5 1/2 oz brown uppers
Holes/Pont Levee onsides are larger since it is earlier in the century, later the holes get progressively smaller
round closed on inside at instep, round closed outside at heel, flesh to the outside to save wear on stockings and for comfort unless you're German.
Welt is "S" shaped as on p 87 of Goubitz, and welted all around.
Other Goubitz construction instructions on p.122
R/L lasts are more accurate and uppers should be cut R/L unless you are a poverty case (for the most part).
They should have a spring heel since real heels dont begin until 1630-1640s, but I can add a small vestigial heel over the spring heel if I want to peg it(?) on.
they should have lots of grease on the outside (neatsfoot oil - from Plymouth to London shoe order description?)

References and documentation used will be your research on
Vasa: 1628 warship (that also had 8-10 shoe lasts on it both straight and r/l) photos posted here
Beurtschip: ~1625 Ferry/Barge Dutch B710 FL , photos posted here
Jamestown: 80-90 shoes and fragments
Plymouth: no shoes from that period but there are lots of information in documents of purchase orders to London describing shoes and quantity of them ordered. Only shoes from this area are 1660s 1. 1 pair from Scotto's Dock/Bostonian Hotel excavation and 2. 2-4 pair from Saugus Iron Works site.
Question: I looked again at Goubitz p. 82 and after I re-numbered the soles again correctly which took me back to the time I did it on my first book, I still puzzled over the shapes and dates attached the 1700-1800 first two are right????, and the 1600-1700? What are your thoughts on it?

For my project the most flexible brown leather I have is a 3-3.5 oz Tandy shoulder. The unfinished sides are too dry and will take too much time I think to soak in oil and cure. I can round close it and last it fairly easily though it won't be as durable as heavier stuff. The welt will be like the norwegian welts shown here, kind of? I guess it isn't that important but I got a little confused by Goubitz as to the up/down of grain/flesh of the welt when i sew it on the upside-down shoe when I inseam it. It will hold either way, but which side is up?

[das]

Seems all in order, yes. A few comments though:

There are 1620s "close" shoes (no side holes) if you prefer (Vasa, B 71, and Jamestown). My mistake, the French term was pont levis=drawbridge. Not levee.

R&L lasts are correct, so are straights, for 1620s. Not "more accurate", just on par with one another archaeologically so far.

Yes <c.1640, spring heels under continuous outer sole, not stacked on top of outer sole. Yes "prophylactic" single heel lift added, pegged on top of outer sole for added durability in advance of wear.

The neastfoot oil you get these days is pigs' lard in emulsion, not cattle leg/hoof product of yore. It will make a slimy oily limp mess of your shoes, might cause the uppers to stretch out of shape, and is fugitive (washes out in water, leeches in to your hose). I'd suggest rubbing them with sheep tallow instead, if you must grease them.

Goubitz pp. 82--Yeah, his numbering is screwed-up, as none of the sole shape drawings go above 16, whereas the captions goes up into the 20s. Never noticed that before, LOL. OK, I've now re-numbered my copy to correct sequence. 17-20 are probably OK dating. Next row, 22 and 23 appear to be early-mid 1700s women's soles from covered wood heel shoes. Then 25 and 26 look more like early 1600s, not "1700s". Maybe we can get a Ouija board and ask old Olaf

The only early refs. I know to New England shoes were those "crossed on the outside with a [single?] seam" ordered-in from London--this doesn't scream pont levis to me, but.....

Whether grain/flesh is outward on any of Olaf's drawings, uppers, welts, etc.--if it's not recorded, sadly we're left to guess at this important detail. Judging by Vasa, B-71, and J'town shoes, most uppers were grain, a small percent were flesh-out (so there go your stockings). Most welts are grain-up. Most rands ditto, but occasionally there's a flesh rand.

[SharonKudrle]

I wish we could still ask Olaf, and I hope he's watching us. He is a firehose of info. as you said, but he put out a LOT of potentially damaging blazes begun by ignorance and saved many shoemaking villages for posterity.

May I ask about the grease? Is the sheep that different from the pig fat? Is it just a question of quality? I have cattle fat but not mutton tallow, and only Tandy neatsfoot in a very small quantity on my shelf bought for the 29-4 Patcher when I use linen thread per your suggestion. Is there anything I can put on Tandy veg. that will make it work for repro shoes? I use it now, but I know its not as good as grease leather.

[SharonKudrle]

I wish we could still ask Olaf, and I hope he's watching us. He is a firehose of info. as you said, but he put out a LOT of potentially damaging blazes begun by ignorance and saved many shoemaking villages for posterity. My grandfather said if you use an ouija board and nothing happens you look stupid, if you get an answer you'd better wonder about the source....

May I ask about the grease? Is the sheep that different from the pig fat? Is it just a question of quality? I have cattle fat but not mutton tallow, and only Tandy neatsfoot in a very small quantity on my shelf bought for the 29-4 Patcher when I use linen thread per your suggestion. I have pure white beef fat I rendered myself that is ~6 years old and not much rancid though its stored at room temp I save for good leather, and I've resorted to veg oil before also for experiments. Is there anything I can put on Tandy veg. that will make it work for repro shoes? I use it now, but I know its not as good as grease leather.

[das]

Any local butchers in Boston? Ask them to save you 10-15 lbs. of lamb/sheep fat trimmings. Gently melt it into liquid without scorching (nor boiling) in an iron pot/kettle, outdoors, pour off through linen to strain it into coffee cans or similar containers. Let it cool, render it a few more times until snowy white and almost as hard as candle wax, voila, tallow. I'm still using sheep tallow, stored in a sealed plastic tub a room temperature, made in the mid 1980s--it's as fresh as when first made. In my experience beef tallow "works", sort of, but it leaves the leather smelling very strongly of old fashioned McDonald's french fries, or a griddle exhaust hood from a greasy-spoon diner

Since you're into spinning, aren't there any sheep herders up there? The best tallow came from the old critters (mutton v. lamb), and from around the kidneys, as it was the hardest to start off with. I got my tallow from a shepherdess in southern Maryland when the elder ones in her flock were due for processing into more than just wool fleece. Render down 10 lbs., it will be a "lifetime" supply. It's great for dissolving the pitch-wax off your hands at the end of the day too.

It's an easy leap to curriers' dubbin. Warm the tallow into liquid, pour off some and add a bit of raw (veterinarian grade, J.R. Baits & Lures, in OH) cod liver oil--say 80-90% tallow, 20-10% oil by volume. Paint it onto the leather while still warmed into a liquid, it'll drink it right in. The cod oil will oxidize into a fatty-wax in the leather holding the tallow in. Get a copy of H. C. Standage: Enough olde English curriers' dubbin and leather grease recipes in there to keep you busy experimenting for years.

[SharonKudrle]

I'm curious about edge finishing on turnshoes. For those of us interested in accurate repro shoes, can you please tell us what kinds of edge finishing over different eras you have found?

[das]

Same as welted shoes: burnished while damp with wood shoulder sticks pre-circa1820s. Post circa 1820s, increasingly with heated irons (still wood burnishers too). If the uppers are black, commonly black edges. If the uppers are any other color--russet edges usually. occasionally brown-stained edges.

[SharonKudrle]

At the 2019 HCC Annual Meeting when we visited the Williamsburg Shoe Shop I noticed the edges of the slippers that are the first shoes that apprentices make there. Are they turnshoes? The visible edges look thicker and wider than turnshoes I've made. I thought I remember being told they're turnshoes.

The other question I have is how excess oil is removed from leather that's been 'dubbined' , Plucknett refers to it as 'whitening' but doesn't go into the details of how it's done nor the 'slicking' done prior to that (page 96 in my copy).

[das]

Yes CW apprentices start making backless turnshoe slippers. Baker's 5-6 iron insole shoulder is used for suppleness. Edge, via the feather, is only reduced by 1/3rd the initial thickness.

'Whitening" is done by the currier with a whitening knife (see Salaman), the double wire edges of a 90 degree steel blade +/- 1/8" thick (like the spine of a hunting knife with 90 degree corners)--think a big furniture scraper. Sleeking would have to be done after whitening, since it roughens the surface (flesh) a little before the black "smutting" is applied to make waxed calf. There were steel sleekers and glass sleekers, I'm sure are also illustrated in Salaman--basically a 1/4" thick plate of steel or glass, with a perfectly radiused working edge, the other edge is set up into a simple flat handle.

[amuckart]

When rendering tallow from suet I found it easier to boil the suet in water. It made it impossible to overheat and easier to skim the gunk off the top.

I did a batch of beef tallow about 12 years ago and I'm nowhere near halfway through it.

http://wherearetheelves.net/rendering-tallow/

[SharonKudrle]

Boiling suet in water is a good point (I just read your post now Alasdair, somehow I didn't get an alert to this thread) for what it's worth I even let the fat cool in the water and pick it off the floating top when its cold. The non fatty parts are mostly left in the cold water and I can scrape off the 'ick' from the bottom of the floating fat so its clean.

Al Saguto: do you have any images of early 1600s lasts? the crooked ones? Its the heel and waist I'm looking for top, sides, and bottom or anything similar. Many thankx in advance.

[SharonKudrle]

Updated instructions I received are to:

~"Go to the Vasa Museum website index and type in “skolaster” or “skorlaster” for straights and L&R pairs lasts"~

Basically I'm looking for changes in lasts and sole shapes and techniques from 1550-1650 and it looks to me like there were many changes. For the lasts, as regards the forepart I can make do, but the heel and waists will take some improvising to get the fashion right so it doesn't look obviously modern.

[SharonKudrle]

[SharonKudrle]

Images taken at Jamestown Settlement at the HCC Annual Meeting 2019. Thanks to Preservation Virginia for showing us the objects and allowing us to photograph and share them. Thank you Al Saguto for taking us there and showing us the good stuff!

[das]

Sadly the additional Jamestown shoes (National Park Service collection) are stored off-site, and virtually impossible to get to see. Wait for my next book, you'll see them all in their gory detail, as well as many other 17thc-18thc local shoe finds.

[SharonKudrle]

Here is a link to a pair of shoes in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts collection, provided in accordance with their rules. Please don't disseminate this photo without reading and agreeing to their terms of reproducing images from their collection. According to them it's Italian 1605-1610. Looks like a turnshoe for a warm Summer day. Maybe next year.



https://collections.mfa.org/objects/121 ... 2f59&idx=6

Quote from Al Saguto in this thread in September 2019: "The Plimouth colony was in fact 100% dependent on shoe imports from London at the outset. March 16, 1628, they ordered from London Shoemaker Robert Harret 8 dozen pairs, sizes 10-13, "according to the pattern", whatever pattern that may have been. In 1629 they stipulated 400 pairs for 100 men (4 pair each). The 26 Feb. 1628 order they placed with John Hewson (London) for 8 pairs describing them as: "welt(ed) neat's leather shoes, crossed on the outside with a seam, to be substantial good over leather (uppers), of the best, and two soles, the inner sole of good neat's leather, and the outer sole of tallowed backs." "Crossed on the outside with a seam" is a vague description of whatever the uppers pattern was--no mention of holes in the sides either. March 6, 1629, they ordered from shoemaker John Wise, Mark Lane, London 10 dozen pairs in sizes 8-13s to be delivered in 11 days!"

After recovering from soaked muddy cold feet, I'm looking at practical shoes though. I have a tallow pot on the stove right now. Neats, cod, whale, sheep, pig, shark (I'm pro-swimmers and pro-seals), kine, I'm not particular today. Startups or bucket boots would be even better.

[das]

Lovely whit-tawed shoes! In New England about as practical as pockets on a toad. Don't venture outdoors without your chapins either

[SharonKudrle]

Thanks a lot, Al. I'll go look up chapins.

Some have tiny ones for continental currency(beer tokens).

[das]

You have your two ski pole/walking sticks to keep you upright walking in chapins?

[SharonKudrle]

I think I'll leave that fancy chapin stuff to Francis Classe - he's the expert in that branch of shoemaking, I'd likely end up soaked in a canal. Snowshoes, okay. With the chapins in soggy ground here I'd only sink in deeper, the poles would only tell me how deep.

[deadfisheyes]

Not sure if this is a good thread to ask, but does anyone know if RTW shoes were a thing before the invention of the goodyear welt machine, and other machinery. Undoubtedly that all shoes were handmade before, but are they only attainable through bespoke/ custom made, or you can buy premade size?

[dw]

@das would be the one to answer this definitively but I'm near-as-nevermind sure that there were 'workshops' in the early 19th century where boots (esp.) and shoes were made en masse. By the time of the Am. Civil War, (or should I say first Am. Civil War?) the Federal government was contracting for large quantities of both boots and shoes to issue to troops. Earlier than that, I dunno.

[das]

The mass-production of RTW shoes in standard sizes began, at least, with the Romans to shoe their armies and colonies far from home. Shoes from Hadrian's Wall in England, found at Vindolanda, include women's shoes (attached) with a maker's stamp found on shoes found from other Roman sites elsewhere in Europe and the Near East IIRC. If you do a search for "Mass Production of Shoes, by June Swann" she wrote a wonderful article summing all this up nicely, tracing RTW/mass production from the Romans up through the Middle Ages and beyond in the Journal, International Costume Association, no.14, 1997.

152439584_3715578698523245_5809122505629158120_n.jpg