The Crispin Colloquy

carsten wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:14 am Ok- by now I have tried out the hemp thread from Toplicht, after always having been a bit suspicious of the artificial Dacron thread. The thinnest ends up being about 1,75mm in diameter after waxing, while the Dacron that I used before turned out to be more around 1.26mm in diameter. Well - inseaming was a nightmare and it turned out that the 3 stranded hemp tread not only does not taper well, but also it is most certainly too thick, since the fishing line often just tears off. So for the next pair I will go back to the Dacron....

@carsten
I doubt that its being too thick is the problem causing the bristle to strip off. Thicker threads are often used e.g. for sewing heels / seats or for stout boots. You then need a correspondingly larger awl / hole though. Maybe the problem is the "pitch" that this hemp comes coated with. Were you able to see how long the fibers are ie "staple length"? Also to taper it after it has already been waxed will be a pain, maybe strip it all off with turpentine before attempting that.
Some 1920s French hemp I got hold of is also more difficult to wax than linen, it's definitely a coarser fibre. But I still want to use it because of the rot resistance of hemp ... they weren't making ship's ropes out of linen ...
N

Hi @nickb1,

> You then need a correspondingly larger awl / hole though.

well yes that would have solved the problem. With "too thick" I meant keeping everything else the same.... In my case the -then too small- hole diameter has put too much strain on the fishing line.

The hemp fibers are in the order of 22+ cm and it is available in a non coated version. Tapering it is difficult because it comes pre-drilled in three strands and the individual strands are not easy to open and to taper individually. Compared to the Dacron I have used from the maine company, which is rather loose, the toplicht hemp thread is a very compact thread.

Be cautious, in our trade "hemp" shoe thread was often made from unbleached (stronger), greyish, flax fibres not actual hemp fibres. "Linen" shoe thread from bleached (weakened) flax fibres, making a pure white product. When did this switcheroo occur? I'm thinking early 20th century, in the UK, so any elderly balls of thread we might find surviving labeled "best common hemp" are probably suspect. These days there are plenty of genuine hemp threads out there, but the only problem with them is the fibres are processed in cotton machinery for spinning, which breaks all the raw fibres (formerly >12"+ long!) down to very short staples (<3"!), thus robbing the hemp of its tremendous tensile strength. It's still rot-resistant though.

@das the French "hemp" by "Cousins Freres" is noticeably different to "best common hemp" (Barbour's) which most probably is unbleached linen, as you say. The fibres are averaging about 8 inches long when I tease them apart, some longer some shorter.
@carsten so this was not the coated hemp you mentioned? For tapering you can also pull it against the blade of a knife (the knife is angled down on the thread, you are pulling away from the blade not into it). It untwists then starts fluffing off. IIRC you said the company was adamant it was hemp not flax? 22cm sounds good... but how are they able to get this when everybody else has switched to cotton processing machinery?

@nickb1 yes I am pretty certain that it is hemp. It has a very characteristic smell and Toplicht reassured it. They sell it for sailmaking, where strength and non-rotting qualities are likewise important. True, they are selling a tarred and an untarred version. Regarding strength I had the impression that the untarred was somewhat stronger, so I used that one. No idea who makes it though.

vintage French hemp here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125336005150 ... ition=3000

90 available in packs of 10! Bit of a risk buying in that quantity though, I would want to sample. the 2 balls I had from a different seller seem fine. At my current rate of production, a lifetime's supply You get an idea from the pics how coarse a fibre it is.

carsten wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:13 am I had the impression that the untarred was somewhat stronger, so I used that one. No idea who makes it though.

Can't think why that would be, it seems to me that wax makes a thread stronger - I find this quite noticeable in the tapers. Probably not the same thread.

carsten wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:13 am @nickb1 yes I am pretty certain that it is hemp. It has a very characteristic smell and Toplicht reassured it. They sell it for sailmaking, where strength and non-rotting qualities are likewise important. True, they are selling a tarred and an untarred version. Regarding strength I had the impression that the untarred was somewhat stronger, so I used that one. No idea who makes it though.

So, to follow up on this here not just instagram! These are fibres extracted from the non-pitched version. up to 9 inches in a 5 minute effort. The width of the pitched version seems to me suitable for welting. The plied strands seem strong, the individual twists not so much. But I guess what's needed is "strong enough". I think it's probably hemp not linen, as it is coarse, but it's hard to tell conclusively. The company apparently insists that it's hemp. Perhaps @das would be interested in a sample, and also whether he can offer any idea how to strip the pitch off to mount a bristle? I tried with meths and white spirit, since I want to try sewing with it, and it's a pain with limited success; the taws still clump off unevenly. Unless there is an easy way to do it I think the only way this is usable will be to use curved harness needles, not bristles, for welting, which some people do. The non-pitched version will be easy to mount but hard to get enough wax into as it is machine twisted.