Bristling at the very suggestion

[jake]

Al,

I inseam from the inside out. Always starting on my left side and working towards the toe and myself. I always pre-hole my insole.

Lisa,

If you are right-handed and inseam from the "inside out", you can pull alot harder from the inside with your right hand against the welt, vamp, vamp liner, and holdfast without fear of popping a stitch.

Gary,

Dusty DOES use a dremel tool.

[dmcharg]

All,
I used to inseam blind *and* sew away from myself (still slip back into that from time to time ) but after I was given Paul Haslucks 'Bootmaking' book by my dad, and listened to the advice of others here I switched both, I believe, with better results (and in the case of inseaming, less risk of busting my awl).
My tendancy is still to sew away from me but if I spot it and switch I'm sure I see an improvement and an easyness come.

Cheers
Duncan

[dw]

All,

By way of a follow-up to our split bristle vs. wrapped bristle discussion...

I just finished some "time trials." Understand that this is the first time I have timed myself on this procedure and while feel sure I could reduce the times a bit, with some practice, I ran the time trials to satisfy my own curiosity, not simply to burn through in the shortest possible time.

Anyway...

I can split a nylon bristle in about 45 seconds. I've done it in 30 but the smaller the diameter, the fussier it is and the longer it takes.

I can wrap a split nylon bristle in about two and a half minutes, call it 2:45. So altogether that makes three and a half minutes to do it the way I do. I have to wrap each leg of the split bristle but I don't have to wrap as closely as if I were using the pure wrap method. I'm sure wrapping two is a bit slower than wrapping only one, but I would guess only marginally so.

The result? I don't begrudge an extra 60 seconds or so to insure that my bristle never (virtually never) comes off. I say "virtually never" because through all of this, I am reminded of an old aphorism: "Anyone who claims that he never makes mistakes (never has a misfit, never loses a bristle), is either selling something or needs a better standard of success and failure."

And in that vein, I must confess that the real time sink in my method is in using unwaxed bulk poly. I have to cut to length and taper the thread. So, it takes roughly 15 minutes to do that...times two, that's 30 minutes to make a set of waxed ends. Add the time to split and wrap the bristles and you've got 45 minutes all told.

I don't mind it a bit...it's part of the "Art and Mysterie" but such times might be a caution for others less involved in the, shall we say, more esoteric aspects of bootmaking.




Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Gary,

A quick and perhaps obvious point...when a Dremel tool is used, leather is removed...insuring that the leather can never be subsequently closed back down around the thread or the peg.

When an awl is used, especially on tempered leather, the leather is simply compressed and pushed aside. When you finish stitching, you can hammer it down and close it up around the thread. Because the thread is in there, the leather never completely "uncompresses." And the result of that is that the leather is stronger precisely where the thread works against it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
I would have to agree with you about the Dremel Tool. No Dremel Tools will ever be used in my shop or by any of my students for inseaming. End of discussion on Dremel Tools for inseaming.

You see, I am more of a purist than you thought....TR

[Anonymous]

DWFII it's Weds. morn. 0804am --and here we go again (<: and with a stop watch no less ! I was so pleased that another generation this week chimed in on how they sew the inseam. Don't take me wrong, I have been your fan for years. I can blame/thank you for sparking my interest in this noble trade. I read every Chapter you wrote in the Leather Crafter Magazines (except the ones you left out..)<for the last *^+*?? yrs. The true dedicated Bootmakers is a National Treasure. But time moves forward and techniques advance and materials improve. Step into the 21st.Century.!Possibilities are endless!

[gcunning]

I know I have so much to learn and it is a process. I want to do things right but DW why do you cut and taper your thread? I know you like doing things like making your own piping (sideseam) and such but I don't understand why you would make your own thread. Is it because you enjoy that part? Because I can't see how a thread you make would be much different in strength than one made by a company.

[dw]

Gary,

Bit of a hurry (I'm hungry), so please excuse spelling and fractured syntax.

I make my own because:

1) I hate dealing with the paraffin.

2) I want my waxed ends to be 12 foot long or longer (this is the main reason) so that I can continue sewing around the shank and heel and still have some leftover for whipping in the shank.

3) I do like doing it but if the other reasons weren't there, liking it would probably not be enough to kkep me making my own. Well, maybe...

You'tre right, it's not any stromger. But the hand wax I use, not being mixed in with the paraffin , really locks dow the stitch.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

This debate has been going on for a long time now and it looks like there is just no end in sight. At best it can only end in a standoff because I have my definite opinions about how a pair of cowboy boots should be made and you have yours.

What makes a person worthy of respect or worth listening to? Well I think that I have more than enough credentials for people to do just that. To listen. I have not learned to make boots from books though I don't hold it against anyone else that does. I don't believe that I have ever said that I was against the works of Golding or any of the others. I just don't have any use for them myself. I have never needed them. I personally don't agree with everything they teach and everything you teach but these are just differences of opinion.

And I certainly reach out to others to help them in learning the trade. I have never refused to give advise or instruction to some young bootmaker who asks. And I now have a half dozen students who are successfully making boots.

And on the subject of whether you pre-punch or don't pre-punch, it doesn't matter to me how you do it. But I still say that it is more professional to not pre-punch and you notice I did not say "Inseam Blind", because I don't inseam blind. I know exactly where I am putting my holes and I have never pre-punched my holes. I do however teach my students that method because it is an easier way for them to learn...and whether you and two other guys have switched doesn't mean it is better. It just means that you and two other guys pre-punch.

As for my methods which are only slightly different than yours and the difference between you and I. I contend it is mostly personality. You and I will never agree just as I and James Leddy don't agree on everything and I and Carl Chappel don't agree on everything and so on and so on. No two bootmakers will agree on everything, even the ones that memorize the books on bootmaking. I have told you this and I will tell everyone on the internet now . My shop is open for anyone to come and see what I do and I would welcome any visitor that would like to do so. Just call ahead.

You say that all of these "Book Bootmakers" were masters of the trade. Well, maybe they were but I say that what they wrote was just the beginning of bootmaking and I for one will not limit myself to only what they wrote. I have a mind of my own and I intend to use it with all of the modern techniques and improvements of our time without sacrificing the quality of my boots. I have seen you write it many times that, "it wasn't written in stone". Well, there is one statement we can both agree on...TR

[gcunning]

I realize I do not communicate well over e-mail. I rarely mean to challenge anyone in this business. Mostly it is just to gain understanding. I have stated many times in the learning process I take bits of information from what ever varied sources and mold it into my own style. So DW here I go one more time. So would you buy it if it could be obtained in 12ft lengths? Why can’t wax be applied to the pre-made thread?

[dw]

Gary,

I like to be challenged...like everyone else I prefer to avoid confrontation.

I took no offense at your post. I welcome your questions. I think the healthiest thing that has happened/can happen to bootmaking and shoemaking is the sharing and exploration of ideas. Sometimes that means explaining--taking the time to explain--sometimes that means asking for an explanation. Sometimes it means comparing, sometimes it means disagreeing.

The essence of teaching, the essence of learning is not doing rote work. I've always said that "anyone can be a bootmaker...it's just muscle memory...it's the fitting that's hard." The point is that you can know all the moves but if you don't know how to *think*, you're stuck for the rest of your life repeating yesterday.

So...as everyone knows, I can ramble on at times.

In any case, to answer your specific question...if I could buy them in 12 foot lengths with a rosin based wax instead of paraffin, and, at a reasonable price, yes, I would buy them. I don't mind making them up. And I think it's important to know how (I started with linen yarn). But there are times--not always, mind you--when I would willingly forego the hassle and get on with inseaming.

And yes, wax can be applied to pre-made strings...even ones soaked with paraffin. You can, as Tex has said, even use the paraffined strings, as is, without adding any additional handwax. I've done it that way. I've also stripped the paraffin off with elbow grease, solvents, and even put the handwax right over the top of the parafffin. And I've tied two six foot sections together. But I believe in the importance of the "handwax lock" and the paraffin will ruin that. And I suspect the knots...buried somewhere in the insole.

So there you have it. As both Tex and I have said repeatedly...it's probably more a matter of personality than anything else. Another one of my favourite sayings is that "enough little mistakes, enough inconsequential expediencies, and pretty soon it adds up to ugly." The corollary to that is "enough attention paid to detail, enough *extra effort* and pretty soon it adds up to quality."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tex,

Yes, you're right. This debate has been going on a long time and there's probably no end in sight. That's because the debate started long before either Tex Robin of DW was born. And it will go on long after we're both dead and gone. It's a debate as old as human beings themselves. Personally, I don't find that bothersome. Nor do I find the fact that you sometimes disagree with me, bothersome. Think of how boring this world would be if everybody agreed with each other. Clones of DW or Tex Robin...shudder! Of course at that point, everyone but the original--me--would be superfluous. [ducking and running]

And while I'm in this rather puckish, merry-prankster mood, let me say that despite worrying, when you first came on the Forum, about keeping up with me, you now are in the top ranks of "windy" writers. Congratulations! I knew you had it in you.

Seriously it was a good post. Equally seriously, you've no worries about being respected or listened to...but then everyone on this Forum deserves that, whether they've met some arbitrary set of criteria or not. I'll tell you a little secret...sometimes students can teach you things your peers cannot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Lisa,

I don't know that I'd say stitching toward yourself is any better than stitching away, although Jake makes a good point about the leverage you can apply to the welt when you start on the left. But I have on occasion tried to stitch away from myself, and I'm here to tell you that I feel like I'm trying to eat soup with a fork. I guess there are just some tricks you can't teach an old dog .

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jonathon]

As I have explained earlier I am one of those who pre-punch my innersoles. I do it this way simply because that is the way my master taught me. (working from the inside out by the way) No doubt old George, just like you Tex could have "stitched blind" with consumate ease, but pre-punching simply made things easier for his students.
Tex, When your father taught you did he teach you to pre punch or not? You also stated that you start your students of pre-punching. Of the ones who have gone into business for themselves how many still pre-punch as apposed to "stitching blind" Appreciate your input Tex. Its great to hear differing opinions. My master often said, there is no right or wrong way, so long as we get the desired result. (Although he prefered if you did it HIS way first!)

Cheers.
Jon.

[texrobinboots]

Jon,

First of all, thanks for the tip on my upper machine. Ever since I rotated the needle a few degrees it has not skipped a single stitch. In all of my yrs I had never heard of that remedy before. By the way though, my Phaff 141-5 bls are both over 30 yrs old and are just now needing new parts.
On the subject of pre-punching, yes I do teach my students to pre-punch their holes. A student only does one pair of boots in my course and they need something to remember by when they leave. By pre-punching they get to punch them twice. I am surprised that they can ever remember anything when they leave.

I had the benefit of being raised by a Bootmaker and I could sit down next to my Father and make boots anytime I wanted to and sometimes didn't want to . So I was like an apprentice to my Father. I *NEVER* saw my Father pre-punch any inseaming holes in the innersole or anything. I never even heard him mention it to me ever. Sometimes I would sit down next to him and he would start an inseam and then hand it to me and I would go nearly to the toe and he would go around the toe and then I would finish it, and so on. This is how I learned to inseam, but never pre-punching.

My Father got some of his experience at boot bottoming(lasting and completing till the heels are stacked)at L. White Boot Company in Ft Worth, TX. They made boots the handmade way and they had all workers working on piece work. Most bottomers there would last in and complete to stacking the heels two pair per day. So you learned speed as well as craftsmanship or you were thrown out the door by the old man, Louie White.

I didn't mean to ramble but now back to pre-punching holes. I channel my insoles I believe, exactly like DW does with a holdfast cut into the insole with a slanted cut. When I cut my channel there is a definite ledge that you can see and feel on the side of the boot. When you lay the welt up beside the boot you can see exactly where the welt is supposed to fit. This is why I disagree with anyone that says this is inseaming blind. Because to me it is exactly the way it should be done. I don't know exactly how long a student of bookmaking should take to learn this but it is definitely the you would learn it if you worked for me. I have had in my career half a dozen young bookmakers that have worked for me and none had any trouble learning this method. I believe anyone that sets his mind to inseam this way can do it. To me it is not only a waste of time to pre-punch but it is not always possible to make the holes come out right around a sharp toe pre-punching them.

I am not here to dispute anyone's methods of making boots or to say anybody is right or wrong either way. I am just giving you my opinion of what I know is right for me. I inseamed my first pair of boots when I was about 15 yrs old and I turn 63 in a couple of weeks. So I have inseamed a lot of boots and I am not about to switch now to pre-punching.....TR

[fjones]

All

The very idea of putting in anything further on the topic of “holing” is something I do with more than a little apprehension. However, a few personal thoughts.

1. Certainly some of the “English” books which are commonly quoted on the Colloquy - Swaysland (1905), Golding (1902, and 1935), Bordoli (1935), Thornton (1953), Korn (1953) were all written for young people joining the trade/industry who were studying the technology of shoemaking at the various shoemaking colleges in England. Many mention holing as a preparation for inseaming or sewing in the welt. Most were written by staff working at those same colleges, as an aid to their teaching. I cannot comment on whether the commercial boot/shoemakers at that time pre-holed their insoles.

2. However, the vast majority of hand welting I have witnessed being carried out commercially was being done from the outside inwards WITHOUT the insole being pre-holed. The majority of people doing welting by hand in Britain are the orthopaedic footwear makers and this figures heavily in my experience but I have seen the same approach being used by seven workers in a US factory which still hand sews welts (or did in 1996) as well as in small factories in Egypt, to give two non-UK examples. To be fair I have also seen a number of individual hand shoemakers who work the way DW and others have described.

3. I think with experience and practice it is perfectly possible to accurately welt sew from the outside inwards but I differ from Tex’s description of it being “elementary”. I think is skilful thing to be able to get the awl to come out in exactly the right place on “every” stitch. Tex - like me you had the chance to learn this as a youngster, probably whilst still at school, direct from your father. I did not realise it at the time but I later began to appreciate what a privileged up-bringing I had (big grin).

4. One factor that I am surprised has not been mentioned before is the influence of hand welting learnt as part of shoe repair. The repairman normally is forced to work with ribbed insoles and because the upper is well-worn does not want to make further holes through the upper leather. For these reasons repairers nearly always sew from the outside inwards using the old holes. Now, how many people get into hand making having started out in repairing ?

5. That’s enough rambling from me on this subject. To make it clear where I stand, I follow the approach that Tex advocates. Not because I think it is better or more correct, simply that I am happy with it and it works for me PERIOD

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[Tex Robin]

Frank,

Glad to see that there is another one out there
that agrees with me. But I do punch my holes from the inside out.

Hey, when are you going to make that swing through Texas?...TR

[walrus]

Frank and all
"Now, how many people get into hand making having started out in repairing ? "
Thats how I started out,I bought a repair shop and then wanted to learn how to make them from the start. It was an easy step beacuse I had done every thing except the lasting in my repair shop.Of course I had a master as a teacher worked across the bench from him for three years .We also had about 1500 orthopedic customers .That was 25 years ago .I am smitten for sure.Thousands of pairs later I am still Smitten .Is there anything that one can take for such an affliction.
Hope all are well LOL
Larry HCC Member

[fjones]

Tex

That will teach me to read the postings even more carefully. Perhaps I should have said with a LOT of apprehension. I was strongly under the impression that you worked from the outside inwards.

I would love to see a little of the bootmaking in Texas. It comes down to when I can get a some work in the deep south which will cover the transatlantic air fare. Let’s just say that I am working on it, but don’t hold you breath.

I feel a little like Jimmy Connors when he was struggling against John McEnroe in a Wimbledon Tennis Final back in the 1970’s. Just as he was about to serve a crucial point somebody in the crowd shouted “Come on Jimmy”. In the middle of all the tension he stopped, turned round to the crowd and said at the top of this voice “I’m trying for Chris-sake !”

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[Tex Robin]

Walrus,
I cut my teeth on boot and shoe repair, ladies heel taps and all. It is a big help in learning the skills required for making boots especially using the curved needle, lip knife and hammer. I learned to half sole boots and shoes by the time I was 15 yrs old. People used to come in my Father's shop and they would say. Hey, that kid is going to fix my boots is he? And as soon as they left I would start on their boots or shoes. Yes, I would say that learning to repair boots and shoes is a very good start to learning to make boots..TR

[Tex Robin]

Frank,
Yeah, I have always inseamed from the inside out and sewing toward myself. However occasionally when I am re-sewing a factory welt back I will use a jerk-needle and sew from the outside in. I would love to see you come to Texas.

I have a student coming from Brighton next year for a second trip. I really enjoyed him and his wife visiting while they were here last year...TR

[Mike Strong]

I too started in shoe repair or should I say as a shoe shine boy when I was about 8 yrs. old. I was working in a barber shop and there was a shoe repair shop next door. I spent hours in that shop watching Chuck fix shoes. He stitched from the outside to the inside with everything. So some thrity years later or so when I had the chance to buy the shop I did. And with the repairs I stitched from the outside in. After meeting DW and being more than impressed with the man and his bootmaking, I enrolled in his school. At that time he was teaching sewing from the outside in using a blind stitch method.

Now that I'm teaching shoe repair and boot building for the Department of Correction here in Oregon I'm forced now to make sure I'm teaching both the best and fastest methods in inseaming. I haven't tried to inseam from the inside out yet but I'm working on a pair right now to do just that.

I have really enjoyed this discussion and hope to see more in the furture just like it. Thanks everyone for you views Mike

[rosynay]

Frank:

Walter & I are still waiting to hear from you also. My daughter is going to be in London in about three weeks and I
wanted her to be able to call you if she gets lost. Could you send your phone number again.

My best to you!
Riosemary

[dw]

Mike,

Just a small correction...I have *never* taught inseaming from the outside in. Sorry.

I started in shoe repair like a lot of boot/shoemakers. And I learned to re-welt with a jerk needle outside in. Like Tex, I sometimes fall back on that technique with off the shelf footwear.

But my boot teacher, Mike Ives, taught me to inseam inside out and towards myself. And blind. And I got very good at that. Very early on, however, I recognized the problem with not coming out fairly accurately in the outside channel. As a consequence, I set my mind to it and I mastered the technique of blind stitching so that I could sew what was, superficially, at least, a straight inseam.

But "fairly accurately" is not the same as "dead on accurate" and those subtle wavers in the inseam, that most people would never even notice, bothered me.

As a point of clarification [correct me if I'm wrong Al, Marc] sewing blind does not mean being blind or closing your eyes, either, for that matter. What it means is that one or both ends of the hole you are making in the holdfast is covered with material (vamp and vamp liner) and you cannot see exactly where the awl comes out.

I used to hammer my vamp and vamp liner into the channel so that prior to inseaming, I'd have a very clear "dimple" to indicate where the channel was and where the welt should go. But unfortunately, it was my experience that if you can't see the tip of your awl emerging in the channel you can't really and truly control it. Sure, I came out in the "dimple" every time...and maybe that's all that is really necessary. But you can come out in the center of the "dimple" from a "high" approach or a "low" approach and unless you actually peel back the liner and vamp, you'll never know it.

I have no doubt that a person can master blind stitching fairly easily if you set your mind to it. I did it and if I can do it anyone can. But pre-holing, makes the whole job easier and gives me a great deal more confidance in the inseam. That's all it takes to win me over.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,
I guess we will always disagree on the pre-punch versus the so-called blind hole method but I would rather fight than switch. And you will NEVER get my Celastic toe boxes away from me. Hey, why don't we start debating about something that really makes a difference in bootmaking. So far we haven't. And I can't really think of anything either of us does that makes a difference in the quality of Cowboy Boots.....TR