Bristling at the very suggestion

[Tex Robin]

Pablo,

Get back to me. I lost your e-mail add. Mine is texboots@web-access.net ...TR

[Anonymous]

Hello All from north of 49 again

Another beginner type question, on the bristle thread - pardon the pun . I think I'm getting the gist of how and why to bristle but I'm still a bit puzzled about the "taws". I gather from context that you're speaking of a thread which tapers at the "business" end. Is it bought or made that way? If the latter, how?

Also, I just today picked up an old tackle box full of cobbler's tools - a real mixed bag including a farrier's hoof trimming knife and a huge metal caster on a home-made handle which I assume is meant for an edge iron. Anyway, there are several nice wood-hafted small awls, one with a curved awl and the name "Rasche" on the blade. Does that mean anything to anyone?

Still working on ID-ing my inside stitcher too. The USMC of Canada rep says the "C105" is a serial number, not a model, so I'm stumped until I can get a power washer and maybe paint remover to it and look for other distinguishing marks.

All for now. Like Judy, I'm really enjoying the debate.

Tight stitches all!

Peter Monahan
Alliston, Ontario, Canada

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

Hate to say it, but no, I still haven't tried your split-nylon trick. I still have about 5 kilos of extra-stiff, 8", black, natural bristles, so no need to get out of my horse-drawn buggy just yet--it's so much nicer to just go kilippity-klop down the windy country road anyway, enjoying the few quirky pleasures of yesteryear that survive, than to shoot down the frenetic 6-lane asphalt highway in hot car at 120 mph. To me getting there is half the fun

[dw]

Peter,

Yes, the "taw" is the taper. Although I only learned that term recently (on the Forum) myself) I've been using/making them for years.

When you use linen yarn to make your waxed ends, you can do like I do and skein off the 10 strands (by 12 foot long) all in one bundle and then "break" the strands with a technique that actually unravels the yarn and leaves a beautiful taper on each thread. Then, because each strand is the same length as all the others you need to stagger the ends to create the taw. And the whole bundle of threads will end up longer than 12 feet long. Or you can break/unravel each thread by rolling it across your knee. Here only the first strand is 12 foot long, all others will be shorter as the taper is created on the fly, so to speak. Either way you end up with a taper on both ends.

You can also buy poly/dacron threads that were originally designed for sewing up vamp plugs on moccasins. The taw is built right in--very convenient--and a very nice taper it is, too. They come in various diameters but are limited to six foot long--very inconvenient; and are usually waxed with paraffin--a pain in the backside!

[ Hey, Tex...what do you do to get rid of the paraffin on the poly tapers you use? My experience is that the paraffin is as slippery or more so, than beeswax and it's fully soaked into the thread and taper. Surely you have to remove it? ]

You can also buy rolls of unwaxed poly from Maine Thread. Here, you can cut the thread to any length you want. I have worked out a way to put a sweet taper in each end but again it does take a little more time.

I demonstrated the whole technique at AGM last year and the HCC has a video tape of that demo.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Anon.,

"Taw" is the trade's term for the long, whispy, filament-end on the tip of the thread, used to twist up with a bristle [either wrapped or split]. Traditionally, when making flax or hemp threads, the individual strands are laid-up stagged in length--one slightly shorter than the next--in order to create this "taw" at the ends. Others pop [back-twist, then break] each individual strand, instead of cutting them, so the broken fibers form a nice long "taw". I've seen others lay the strands up all the same length, then scrape them as one under a sharp knife to fray-out a "taw" too. You can even use pre-spun stitcher thread [linen], and "taw" it by pulling it under the sharp edge of your knife, to scrape and fray it into this filament. The thoroughly modern pre-made, waxed, polyester "tapers" they make for hand-sewing the toe-plugs into moccasins and "boat shoes", come pre-tapered into a "taw" at each end, to facilitate threading on needles. But, these can be re-worked to accept bristles [natural or nylon] by stripping off the slippery paraffin wax, and re-waxing them with proper sticky shoemakers' wax [pitch, rosin, etc.].

[dw]

Al,

Yeah, I have a big bundle of 8" black and several big bundles of 8" white. I enjoy pulling them out now and again and just fondling them (along with my bag of 150 year old maple pegs--I like to sprinkle them all over my body). But I use the nylon if only because I have a feeling that when the boar's bristles are gone we won't see their like again. And it's much easier to unravel the nylon bristle and use it again.

I'm with you 100 percent on that windy country road. It's the journey itself that's important, not the destination. When you think of what waits for all of us at the end of the road...I, for one, am in no hurry to get there.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

Well-said bro'...

On the bristles, there seems to be no problem getting the real ones out of Pakistan/India right now, but soon they may glow in the dark--good for stitching in low-light conditions? In the shop downtown, we all use only the real bristles, and a one pound bundle lasts over a year, even if you don't re-use them. And, you can re-use the real bristles, too, if you're careful.

[Tex Robin]

DW,

Since I started using the Poly strings almost 20 yrs ago I have found several ways they can be used. You can strip the paraffin with a shop towel(red filling station rag)with all-purpose thinner or you can put several in a coffee can to soak for a few min. It will come right out. Or you can simply wax over the paraffin with my black shoemaker formula. You can also use them as they are with only a little black wax on the ends to hold the mono on. I can use them completely as is without adding anything and my bristles stay on fine. I have my own way of pulling the ends through that keeps them from striping the bristles off. Also I might add that the paraffin wax on the poly strings holds perfectly well by itself(I know that is going to set someone off) You would think that the paraffin would not hold but it does. It may just dissipate after you inseam the boot, but I repair my own boots and I have not seen any come loose after long wear. I believe the Poly strings would hold without anything at all on them, if you could use them that way.

The amazing properties of the poly string is that it will out wear any boot. It will not rott like the flax. Poly strings, all-purpose and Celastic have been the three best discoveries of this century, for our trade whether you use them or not! ...TR

[marc]

Just as one of those boring glossary moments, "Taw" may either come from "Tow", a term for the unspun flax, hemp or linen fiber; or from "Taw"/"tawse" referring to a whip, thong, or lash.

Since when the thread is stripped down to a point, a lot of "fluff" is left over, and that "fluff" is tow, I suspect that it's from this origin.

Marc

[dw]

Tex,
 
I've tried stripping off the paraffin with all-purpose thinner and also with Sellari's wax thinner. The Sellari's works best for me. But heck, time you get done with that you've dern near got as much time (and a heck of a lot more mess) involved as you would if you started with unwaxed like I do.
 
I guess I would have to agree with you about the poly, at least. But only when you consider that really good long staple linen yarn is no longer available. And the old time formulas for making hand wax usually result in a substance that is as much a preservative as an aid in locking down the stitch. Trouble is, not only is the good linen gone but a lot of the commercially available hand wax has mineral oil in it...which  only contributes to the thread rotting.
 
Naturally, I'm not as sanguine about the celastic and the all-purpose. Not only does adoption of these new fangled materials guarantee the loss of the core skills that makes bootmaking something different from boot manufacturing, it kind of assumes that we are, or can become, better bootmakers by taking that route, than the masters who went before us and who didn't have these advantages. And that is simply to close our eyes and minds to the really fabulous and exacting work that was done when bespoke boot and shoemaking was in its heyday. Such reasoning, taken to it's logical end, in my experience, almost inevitably leads us to a factory workstation. Sorry, that's not my goal.
 
What's more, there is a hidden cost for every one of these materials. The growing of flax recycles carbon dioxide from the air and outputs oxygen. Manufacturing dacron/polyester puts complex and often toxic hydrocarbons into the environment. Tolulene and MEK in the case of all purpose, and god-knows-what-all in the production of celastic. Of course, these chemicals get dumped into landfills and watersheds far from where we see them so we don't count it as a cost to us personally. But it's there and our grandkids will have to reckon with it.
 
Having said that I use poly thread and all-purpose...and am honest enough, I think, to admit that the main reason is expediency. I also make leather boots and wouldn't hesitate to wear a fur collar on my coat. But I am convinced that all the chemicals that go into making the artificial substitutes for fur and leather--and linen yarn, and potato paste, and stacked leather heels and so on--are far more damaging to our environment than the use of fur and leather itself.
 
 
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Marc,

What's the origin of "tawed" with respect to "tawed leather?"

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[Tex Robin]

DW,
Well, you know how I feel about progress and I believe the poly strings, all-purpose and celastic are just that. I believe without a doubt that if you could go back to the days when it began and show them a celastic toe box, they would love it and that is including St. Crispin!

I also doubt that the polution of making any of these products is doing anything to the invironment that would equal anything like what the greenies have done to cause the loss of our timber in the fires. And on and on and on. There are just as many scientists that believe the hole in the ozone has been there always as there are those that believe we have caused it.
Hey, you need to get ready and come to Wichita Falls. It's supposed to be the best ever...TR

[jake]

D.W.,

Been out of pocket for about a month, so I'm just now able to "chime-in" on the discussion.

Your recent problem with splitting monofilament fishing line occurred with me a couple of years ago. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out my problem, and I too thought I was losing it. I for one appreciate your comments concerning this dilemma. I believe your assumptions are correct. This problem finally led me to adopt your "wrap" technique, which has already been explain in depth. My method of pulling the ends has been explained by Al on the Forum and allows me to very seldom lose a bristle. Personally, I still use Ludlow's poly tapers. I have a gallon jug which usually contains several of these tapers soaking in acetone. By the time I need them, the acetone has dissolved most of the paraffin. I too use shop rags to rub the residual paraffin from the tapers. But I would have to agree with you, splitting the bristle is the most secure way of attaching the taw.

There's one comment in the above discussion that disturbed me a little:

DW, You are doing it WRONG...

Usually around the middle of August everyone is getting tired of the heat and humidity. Attitudes are not the best in the world this time of year. I'm sure this comment was not well thought out and said in hast. Now I haven't spent 40 years in the bootmaking business, but I don't believe there's a "right/wrong" way of doing things. I don't care if you are using a jerk needle and nylon tape to inseam, it's still a viable way to get the job done. I hope we all can respect each other's techniques and attitudes toward boot/shoemaking. We need to remember the purpose of this Forum is the sharing of ideas. To nurture the growth of this trade we hold so dear.

I hope this is received in good faith and with the deepest respect.

[Tex Robin]

Jake,
If you will go back and read the post where I told DW he was doing it wrong you will see that I was referring to putting beeswax on the bristles. This make them slip off where regular wax makes them stick. In this context DW was doing it wrong..Beeswax is for making something slick, Shoemakers wax is for making something stick. I was referring to the wraping method , which I use an do know how to do it right. If it offends you that I told DW he was wrong, then so be it.....Tex

[jake]

Oh Tex,

You didn't offend me one bit! I just hate anyone telling somebody they are wrong.

For the record, I use beeswax on my bristles, but I apply it after I have worked coade into the taw and attached my bristle. By rubbing the taw and bristle a few strokes across a cake of beeswax, allows the first few stitches to go through the holdfast a little easier. Very seldom do I ever lose a bristle. If you have roughen your bristle with sandpaper or pliers, worked the coade into your taw, coated your bristle with coade, and have a nice taper, a little beeswax won't hinder the attachment of the bristle. Of course, this is just my opinion.

So am I right? NO! Are you wrong? NO! Sounds like we both get the job done. Just one of us is a little slippery at first! (ginning like a possum!)

[dw]

Jake, Tex,

As you know I use beeswax exactly as you do, Jake. Always have, even when I was using the wrap method. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize. I seldom lost a bristle, but when I did, the taw simply wouldn't hold a new bristle as well as it did at first...*because* of the beeswax. Rubbing a little extra beeswax on the wraps doesn't hurt...as you say...but once it's on there, it mixes in with the handwax that's on the surface of the wraps. Almost like you mixed up a batch of handwax with extra beeswax in the formula. When you go to re-wrap the new bristle, you can't control which surface of the taw is going to lay face down on the bristle. So even if the under side of your original wrap's were pure sticky pine rosin, some parts of the new wraps are gonna be heavy with beeswax.

Inseaming, it seems to me, is a little like pegging. The smaller the hole we make in the holdfast, and the larger the thread in relation to that hole, the better the job. Obviously the tip of the waxed end is the weak point. The bristles are on there only semi-permanently no matter what method you use and the taw itself is, by its very nature, weaker than the body of the thread. Yet we have to get *two* strands of it through a hole that, theoretically shouldn't even be as wide as one strand. If we start with a small hole and try to pull two bristles through that don't have beeswax on them, there is a very real risk the handwax will stick to itself (as it should!) and the bristles will hang up in the hole. And at that point, there's an even greater risk that the bristles will pull off or the taw will break. As you say, a little beeswax will facilitate getting the bristles and taw through the hole in the holdfast, at which point we can grab onto the body of the thread with no worries of it breaking.

Some makers might add more beeswax to their handwax to prevent it sticking. But handwax is meant to be sticky--extremely sticky--to help lock in the stitch. Taken to its logical end and we might as well not use handwax at all but just stick with the paraffin, as Tex suggests can be done. The inseam wont ever be tight but...

Some makers simply make the hole bigger. But, in my experience that only weakens the inseam. Some pull one bristle through and then the other...which works fine but adds time and hassle compared to grabbing the tips of the bristles, getting them started going through the hole and then with one smooth and continuous pull on both sides, tightening up the stitch.

Personally, I have my doubts about inseaming with a jerk needle and gemming. I've taken apart too many of these boots and seen the results--not good. But although I might take issue with the technique or argue the pros and cons of using that technique, I would be real reluctant to characterize a person or their behaviour over it. Ideas are what we are about here not personalities.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tex,

I wanted to comment on your assertion that if we offered celastic and poly thread, and such, to the old time bootmakers that they'd jump at the chance to use them. (Is that a fair re-statement of your point of view?)

Some others (I think Al among them have made the same point) Me, I have my doubts. Oh, I don't for a minute doubt that the "dead guys" wouldn't have been fascinated with some of our machines and techniques. I don't doubt for a minute that, almost to a man, they would have been curious and tried them out. I'm curious enough to try out their methods.

But I do believe that the better boot and shoemakers would have soon gone back to their old ways. Why? Because these guys were proud and proud of what they did. They bragged about and they did crazy stuff to show the whole world how exacting and good they were.

Back in the 19th century, when it seemed the whole world was turning to factories and new fangled materials and machines, shoemakers were reluctant to become "wage slaves." So they started doing work that no machine could do. The most famous example of this is "64 to the inch." These guys were sewing, by hand, stitches at 64 to the inch....closing stitches and ornamental stitching. Yes, it's crazy. Yes, they did it mostly for show. But what did they do for common work? 16-20 stitches per inch on the outsole.

The fact that they even conceived these standards, standards that none of us would even attempt, much less be able to achieve, tells me something.

Personally, beyond a healthy and almost inevitable fascination with something new, I doubt that the best of them would have been very impressed by contemporary work.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

"I wanted to comment on your assertion that if we offered celastic and poly thread, and such, to the old time bootmakers that they'd jump at the chance to use them. (Is that a fair re-statement of your point of view?)"

Yes, It s is. But of course that is strictly a hypothetical suggestion. There is no way either one of us can say how those pioneers of the trade would react to my suggestion. I don't believe I have ever said that these boot and shoe makers were not skilled . But their time is gone and we are here now in a medium called cyberspace that would bogle their minds. If you really want to experience their ways, why don't you do as I suggested before. Use a kerosene lamp to see your work. Ride a horse or use a buggy to get to work. Do all of your work without electricity and throw your computer away. I will go with the progress of these modern marvels called Poly strings, Celastic, and all-purpose and I will compare my boots to anyones including yours as being as ruggedly constructed as they can be made.....TR

[jake]

D.W. & Tex,

I seldom lost a bristle, but when I did, the taw simply wouldn't hold a new bristle as well as it did at first...*because* of the beeswax. Rubbing a little extra beeswax on the wraps doesn't hurt...as you say...but once it's on there, it mixes in with the handwax that's on the surface of the wraps. Almost like you mixed up a batch of handwax with extra beeswax in the formula.

This has been my experience too. Failed to mentioned that part. Thanks for bringing it up.

Tex, I'm going to try your method of no beeswax next time. I'll try anything once....maybe I'll like it! But I'll leave you to the celastic! (big grin)

[Tex Robin]

Jake all,

I know it is hard to learn the nylon bristle method, but the only alternative is the wire and they just make my hands sore and they start bending the minute you start to use them. I only let my students use them when they simply can't make the nylon do.

When I make my wax, I only use 1 or 2 parts of beeswax to the black pine tar wax. And I never add any beeswax to anything, except to my pegging awl and only if it starts to stick.

Are you coming to Wichita Falls this year? I asked DW but he hasn't replied yet.....TR

[jake]

Tex,

Yeah......I'm with ya on the wire bristles. I'll take nylon all day long.

I'm gonna try to make it to Wichita Falls if all goes well. The one meeting I'm definitely attending this year is our HCC meeting. Al, any ideas yet?

But for anyone who hasn't attended the Roundup, it's one of the best, if not THE best. I'll look you up Tex!

[dw]

Tex, Jake...

So, I wasn't so wrong after all?!

When I was using the wrapped method, I did it exactly like Jake. I stripped the paraffin off the poly, waxed the whole thread with handwax, including and most especially the taw and then lightly sanded the bristle and wrapped it very tightly. As I said before the only difference from the way you are doing it, Tex, is that I then coated the wraps with a light application of beeswax...just the same as Jake does. But just like you Jake, I have had problem...not often but just enough to cause me to gnash my teeth...with the bristle coming loose. With a small hole in the holdfast, I believe the beeswax is necessary. And trying to re-bristle the taw after the bristle has come off is pretty iffy. Actually, that's where I first got acquainted with steel bristles.

As for the horse and buggy business...

Maybe I'm just a bit more conservative than you are, Tex, (sorry, I mean no insult there)...it's just that I don't embrace progress for progress' sake. I don't see the point in it.

There are certain areas of my life where I want the very latest. But there are certain areas of my life that are richer, and more interesting because I work to retain the traditions, and the romance, and the *wisdom* of the elder days...as much as possible. I have a fairly large stock of polar bear hair and seals fur for tying steelhead flies...as an example (both materials are banned now)...and I treasure my Allcock and Sealy hooks and my Hardy Perfect reels.

Maybe the difference is that I don't see time in the same way as you do. Time is a river--sometimes, it can be just as instructive and enlightening to go *up* river as down.

As for Witchita Falls...I would like to come and greatly appreciate the implied welcome. But I've got about one major trip in me a year and this year I need to go out to Pennsylvania and see my mom--she's getting on and not doing too good presently (although if I know her, she just ornery enough and tough enough...she'll probably outlive all her kids). And we're building a new shop this year, too. Hope to be in it by the turn of the year. This mid September date is very bad for me, in general. I have other business that has to be attended to about that time of year, I might ordinarily be in Santa Fe on those dates or close by...not something I can afford to miss.

Not to mention that steelheading is just at its peak mid-Sept. to mid-October.

Well, as I think Marcus Cicero once said..." Had I more time, I would have answered you more briefly"...or something like that.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW, Jake,

Well, I guess I am the only one of us three that has mastered the art of the plain wrap nylon bristled waxed end. It takes a while but if you really want to perfect it you can.

DW, I guess there has to be one eccentric in the bunch and I don't hold it against you but I am glad it is you and not me because I don't like that kind of hat!

And for the last word. The Amish still use the old ways too but the question is, does it make them better farmers?

Sorry you can't make it to Texas this year. Jake says he is coming and I am looking forward to vistiting with him.....TR

[dw]

Tex,

The Amish still use the old ways too but the question is, does it make them better farmers?

I have to answer this because it goes to the heart of an issue I've struggles with all my life and maybe even to the heart of the difference between our two approaches.

If you buy into the idea that a farmer needs to produce X amount of bushels per acre; that he needs to get three cuttings of alfalfa in a season; that he has to have two glass cab tractors and numerous other implements just so he can knock off at three in the afternoon and then spend the rest of the day worrying about how to pay it all off...well, maybe the Amish aren't better farmers.

But that's not really an acceptable viewpoint because the standards for success are so subjective and so narrow.

If you ask the Amish if they're better farmers...or if or you broaden your standards to include whether the food he grows is wholesome; whether the land is healthy; whether he loves the soil and derives enjoyment from working the land; whether he's feeding his family and is content...I think you always end up with quite a different answer.

The factory mentality always has the man in service to the machines, and to the process, and to an arbitrarily enacted production level quite divorced from the needs of the individual himself. The "better" farmer that you extol is simply another factory worker.

The craftsman's mentality is just the other way around...the machines, the skills, the process, even the end result are all in service to the man.

I use the split bristle/braid method at least partly because I like it, not because I can't or haven't already mastered the wrapped method. It gives me satisfaction to do it that way...it's a technique that I have mastered (up to a point) that others have not or cannot. The skills and techniques are at *my* service...giving me joy and satisfaction. When I consider the way that Al or Janne hand stitch the outseam, I don't feel disdain or scoff at their efforts. Instead I marvel at their dedication and the way in which they have made the process theirs...made the work itself and each moment of the day a source for pride, contentment, and satisfaction. I don't handstitch outsoles myself, but someday I'd like to. That's why I'm a bootmaker...because I love those skills, I love the occasional fussiness, I love the necessity for patience, I love the smells of the handwax and the oak bark, the heft of the hammers, the grace of the awls, and the supple feel of the leathers.

I feel sorry for anyone, in any job, who doesn't feel some or most of that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Tex Robin]

DW,

I do admire your eloquence. I actually believe you could talk the strips right off of a tigers back. But you fail to convert me to your way of thinking. However, I don't suppose you think you could could anyhow. No two people are alike and I guess and it is great that we can now discuss and express our different views and methods of bootmaking with an air of diplomacy. I can't be too critical about your methods and am not trying to do so. I just believe that I have better and yes, faster ways of doing the same things. I realize that time spent cannot be recalled. We simply have a difference of opinions and priorities. And it doesn't mean there is a difference in the quality of our boots. And I guess as Merle Haggard suggested in his song that a man wears his own kind of Hat! ....TR