Bristling at the very suggestion

[amuckart]

What diameter is the line in those photos? It's hard to tell from such close ups. I've settled on 0.22" maxima ultragreen for closing and 0.3" for soling and that seems to work quite well for the work I'm doing.

Something I noticed about the ultragreen is that it's hollow which means that if you get the nick in it to just the right depth it splits really cleanly. On cheaper solid line I was finding the split was quite rough even when it was splitting perfectly in half.

[amuckart]

Lance,

I'm certainly no expert on this but from my experiences of relatively recent failures I think the untwisting you describe is a symptom of either too soft a hand wax or not enough burnishing when the thread is built.

Are you seeing much of a build up of wax where the thread is going in?

[romango]

Not sure the thickness. I'm sure the tool could be made with any size hole though.

[amuckart]

Hi All,

I've been reading through the text of Rees on Marc's website, and I'm trying (with limited success) to make sense of it. I've read and re-read the description of attaching a split bristle, trying to follow it with materials in hand, but I can't figure out what he's describing.

Thanks to David Kilgour taking the time to show me a while ago, and DW's videos I can bristle up a thread in a couple of ways so I can sew with them, I'm just trying to make sense of Rees' method too.

Can anyone clarify the method Rees describes?

The text is:

Some split the bristle from the soft end to a certain distance, then putting the point of the thread in between the slit, a the lower part of it, and holding the bristle in the left hand between the fore finger and the thumb, with the fore finger and thumb of the right hand twist up hard the split part of the bristle; and then with the fore finger and thumb of the left hand twist up hard the point of the thread and bristle together, and so alternately till it is nearly twisted to the split end of the bristle; then put on the end a knot, or make a hole with a small awl in the thread, and put the hard end of the bristle through; others will twist the point of the thread round the bristle without splitting it and fasten it the same as above.

Many thanks.

[das]

Alasdair,

I've wrestled with making shoes according to Rees since 1973, and I know his language can be hard. The best I interpreted the above graph on making wax-ends is that the britsle is split partway, the "taw" (fine tapered end of the thread) is inserted, and the thread is twisted over the split halves, but with an alternating counter-twist, first on one half of the bristle's tail, then the other. Me, I just twist it hard around the splits, and it works.

To lock the twist, yes, pierce a hole through the thread at the end of the bristle, and pass the bristle's tip back through this hole, and pull it up smooth like you'd lock a needle onto a thread.
I'll jump over to your other posts to reply to those.

[amuckart]

Al,

Thank you for your responses. Sorry about the reply lag, it's been a busy few days.

Just to make sure I understand this right you're splitting the bristle but wrapping the taw over both legs of the bristle at once with an intermittent wrap around a single leg every few twists? I think this is what DW shows as a way of getting the thread started in one of his videos.

My wife tells me an envelope arrived today from India, so it sounds like I've got a few bristles to actually try this out with now

[das]

Aladair,

Your guess is as good as mine on how to interpret Rees there. I split, insert the taw, twist "up" a few turn towards the folicle (to secure the split), then "down" wrapping both split sections at once, and finish by poking two holes, and doing two locks to secure.

[lancepryor]

Since there has been some posting on the topic of the Acadia thread, I thought I'd post my recent experience in sewing with linen/hemp threads. I sew both my inseams and outseams with natural threads, which means I can make a very long taper. My problem/challenge was that, when I used a split and wrapped bristle (a la DW), I found that I would virtually always lose the bristle partway through sewing. My conjecture is this was because the combination of the wrapped fishing line and the 'taw' was actually pretty thick, and eventually the linen thread that was exposed would break due to rubbing through the holes. What made this worse was that, since the thread would actually break, making the next bristle/'re-bristling' was difficult, because the taw had broken and getting a new taper with the remaining waxed thread was difficult and would never be as long and fine as the original. This situation would thus only serve to exacerbate things on subsequent sewing, since the new bristle/taper was even bigger than before.

While this problem was evident in inseaming, it was even worse in outseaming, perhaps because of the small size of the hole on the sole-side of the seam.

So, I thought back to my observations in London and recalled that my teacher has simpling spun his taper onto his fishing-line bristle. I asked him how often he lost a bristle, and he said almost never. I decided to try the same thing, and I've had much better luck in not losing or breaking my bristle/taw. Further, on the couple of occasions when the taw slipped off the bristle, it was left in one piece and thus was easy to simply re-wrap into the bristle.

It seems to me that, if you have a very long and fine taper, the increase in diameter of the taw/bristle is so gradual that it slides very easily through the hole and puts very little stress on the thread until the thread is pretty big/strong, at which point it won't break anyway. If you look at one of these tawed bristles, it is very difficult to see where the taw actually starts, aside from the presence of the wax. Contrast this with the split/wrapped bristle/taw, which gets pretty big pretty fast (at least as I did it), and is considerably bigger in diameter than the simple twisted approach.

Just some food for thought for those who want to sew with linen/hemp thread.

(For the record, I use a bristle about 18 inches long, with perhaps 6 inches before the taw is wrapped and 12 inches for the taw. The taw and bristle are twisted together with the taw running fairly much along the length of the bristle -- say 30 to 45 degrees -- [as opposed to DW's split bristle approach, where the taw is wrapped tightly at almost a 90 degree angle to the bristle], which is why I need a long bristle for the taw to reach full diameter. I want the increase in diameter of the taw/bristle to be very gradual. Also, I sand and 'crimp' with needle-nose pliers the portion of the bristle that will be wrapped to increase its grip and hold on the wax.)

I would love to hear others' thoughts and experience with bristling the natural fiber cords.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

When I was inseaming years ago, with a high grade of Irish linen yarn, I never had the problem. And the method of twist/braiding the split ends of a bristle into the taw was never my invention but one inherited from older traditions where anything but natural fiber was unknown. I think it has a lot to do with how tight you wrap the legs...originally it was done virtually all at once (see Alasdair's quote from Rees sefveral posts above)...and how well you keep your bristle/wraps waxed. As I recall, Al Saguto re-waxes pretty often...even as he is inseaming...and he uses the same simple wrap methid that you seem to be describing.

When I went to synthetic thread, I, of course, had almost no problem at all no matter the material.

But recently I tried outseaming with linen and I did notice the same problem you had. I think the coarseness of the fibers of the outsole strip the wax off the bristle and the wraps.Which then allows those same fibers to abrade the linen itself.

I am an advocate of Teklon...for a number of reasons...and I inseam and outseam (when I outseam by hand) with it. In my experience, the problem is almost non-existent with Teklon.

I must say however that I have since switched to "plaiting" the legs of a split bristle (as was demonstrated Alasdair Muckart). I am fully confident that, especially with frequent waxing, it would be no problem at all even with linen yarn. The main reason is that the both the bulk and length of the plaiting is significantly reduced as compared to either my old (and presumably Rees') twist braiding or the simple wrap method such as Al and you use.

But, hey, go for what works for you. I'm not advocating by any means. Just sayin'...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mack]

Lance,
I have only ever used linen/hemp thread and I find little problem attaching the bristle and keeping it on,the trick is as you say to have a good long taper and good wax to hold it.Most of the makers I know attach straight to the bristle without splitting it.I have seen a few use the split method so as DW says if it works do it!
To help the end grip the bristle try running a warm fudge wheel along the section of bristle to be waxed this gives little indents to help the grip.
Make sure your thread is correct for the hole size.If it is too small the thread will be stripped of wax very quickly and you are more likely to loose the bristle.Its better to drop a cord if needed to get a good fit,a well waxed stitch is far more robust than thread squeezed in too small a hole. Make sure you wax the thread during stitching if it gets too dry.You can also thin out the thread by cleaning the hemp before making the thread so the same number of cords just slightly thinner.
You are probably aware of all this already I just thought I would mention it in case its of use.
Regards Mack.

[romango]

Lance,

I'd love to see a video of this approach, if you get a chance.

[tjburr]

Hello everyone!

I would first like to thank Paul Krause for showing me in person how to use the monofilament fishing line and for having me visit on a moments notice after I figured out I was visiting his home town.

I have been extremely frustrated splitting monofilament; I constantly had trouble with this. After seeing the wrapping process performed I was even more ready to start using it. I am still working on making a coad I am happy with, but I did think of a way to consistently and easily split monofilament.

I apologize in advance if someone else has already suggested this and I missed it.

It starts out with a section of fishing line, a hammer and a piece of marble, or other hard surface.

8305.jpg

Next hit the monofilament one or two times with the hammer about an inch from the end while it is sitting on the hard surface. This will create a flattened part which makes starting a cut in the line easier.

The following picture shows the result of hitting the thread and shows a line where we will be cutting. The reason for hitting it a little ways from the end is to give something to hold when splitting later. It also seams to be easier to cut with this extra as well. In most cases where you flatten the line it will also curve some, which actually helps.

You want to cut from the center to the side of the line to create the same effect as nicking the line with a knife.

8306.jpg

Depending on how hard you hit and how many times it will not always look exactly the same. Here are a few other examples that worked just as well.

8307.jpg

8308.jpg

You then lay the flatted part on your cutting board and start out putting the tip of your knife at the very front of the flattened part. This was the only thing that took me two tries at first. If you start out just splitting in the flattened part, many times it will not split nicely down the middle when you pull the two parts of the line. So remember to start the needle at the edge of the flatted part, almost where there is no flattening.

8309.jpg

In case anyone is interested, the knife is an exacto blade (thanks Lisa for suggesting how long an exacto stays sharp and how thin the blade is compared to other blades) mounted in a clicking knife handle since I have big hands and that feels comfortable. The blades work real well in this handle!

I then rotate the blade down so that when I perform the cut the blade is flat against the cutting surface and I basically push down on the blade rather than pulling the tip throught the line. I also cut to one side and take advantage of the curve that gets created at the flattened area to help this.

8310.jpg

8311.jpg

This will create a cut as shown below.

8312.jpg

You then grab the two parts of the line and pull them apart as you would normally. You will want to trim the ends of the line to remove the flattened part.

8313.jpg

I hope this can be of some use.

Thanks
Terry

[dw]

Terry,

Great tutorial! Very clear. Thanks for posting it.

And the idea is so obvious I never would have thought of it!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

DW,

I must admit when the technique occurred to me while flying back from Arizona to visit my wife's parents for thanksgiving and after visiting Paul, it reminded me of growing up on a farm and thinking a hammer could fix almost anything (you can tell I grew up in Michigan and not in Texas since I did not call it a ranch)

The frustrating part was that I was not flying home, but on a business trip and it was not until over a week later I could see if it would actually work.

Terry

[chuck_deats]

Terry,--Excellent presentation. Thanks for posting it. Very similar to the system I came up with after much fustration. You can use pliers on the short end and a little jerk to start seems to work better than a steady pull. Get about 50-60% success. Once you get a system going, make a lifetime supply before the the mono ages out.

[paul]

Terry,

Glad to have a part in such an epiphany. And I like what you've come up with. I've tried flattening the end such as you've done, but have not had the success you show with placement of the knife. I'll try it soon.

Right on friend!
Thank you,
Paul

[tjburr]

Paul,

The great company and wonderful conversation definitely had a lot to do with getting me motivated and thinking on the topic.

I thought I would mention that I tried this technique by flattening the very end of the fishing line as well.

This however did not work out very good.

1) I could not pull on the two ends as easily since I did not have as much room to grab with on at least one side

2) this usually meant I pulled the ends slower which after reading Chuck's comment about pulling fast would also seem the case here since I had trouble getting it to split good

3) Most importantly I had trouble getting the fishing line to stay in position while I was trying to place the point of the knife. It helps to get the point of the knife close to where it is no longer flat. Almost every time I have performed the hammer flattening away from the end, this caused the line to get a slight bend at this point which helped greatly in keeping the line flat.

Now to work on the coad and I will be in business!

Once again thanks for the time showing me around the shop and a few techniques.

Good Day!
Terry

[dw]

Just a point of interest...I've never run across a spool of Maxima above 20lb., that didn't split pretty well. Other brands are almost always trouble.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

This is a question particularly to Nassar about the demonstration you gave at the last AGM meeting on thread making. However, anyone can feel free to chime in!

I have studied the video I took of your process and reproduced it as best I can see but the thread seems to want to untwist at the least provocation (ie pulling it through the holes).

8732.jpg

(ignore the color variations, that's just my uneven dye job).

I'm using the same sticky wax that you used (you actually gave me the lump you used).

I am using this thread:

8733.jpg

Am I not getting enough sticky wax on the thread or did I not twist tight enough or not burnish enough? Is it possible my holes are just too tight and are stripping the twist out.

Any ideas would be welcome.

[dw]

Rick,

I know Nasser is the one who really needs to answer this but maybe I'll do until the real thing comes along.

First, how did your threads look after they were waxed but before you started inseaming?

Second, I don't which direction the taw is but it almost looks to me as if the threads are twisted the wrong direction--that's important. Looking at the thread from the bristle end I always used a clockwise twist. [What do they call that? A "Z" twist? I can't remember which is which.] The wrong twist would be an easy explanation for your problem.

Third, did the wax flake off as you were inseaming?

If the thread looked good...tightly twisted, properly waxed and burnished to begin with...then I would suspect either a wrong twist or too brittle a wax.

If the wax flaked off during inseaming it may need some cod oil or beeswax to temper it.

just some random thought...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

The #10 thread has a certain twist direction. When I gang them together, is it important that I twist the same direction? Is that what you are saying? It could be that I am not.

The thread looked great before use, but showed unraveling behavior on the first hole, in use.

I'm not getting any flaking. I just did another thread, which I burnished more aggressively. This seemed to help, perhaps insuring the wax is really distributed through the thread well. But I still had the problem to some extent.

[amuckart]

DW is right, the twist is the wrong way, are you left handed by any chance?

I use exactly the same thread as you but I twist it up the other way by rolling it down my right leg with my right hand - meaning the twist is clockwise if you look at the end of the thread. The cord in your picture looks like it's been rolled down the left leg with a left hand - the twist is counter-clockwise if you look at it end on.

I just tried doing that with three lengths of Acadia #10 and it didn't want to stay plied up either. That's because the resultant plied cord is an S/S twist instead of an S/Z twist.

This led me to start brain dumping in case I have any left-handed readers of my blog who run into the same problem, but I'll dump it on here for the archives too.

When you ply up a cord the twist of the ply has to be the opposite of the twist of the component strands, in other words the twist you ply the cord with should be the same as the twist you use to break the individual strands.

The reason for this is that if you ply with the opposite rotation from which the strands were spun, then the fibres in the final cord lay straight. If you ply with the same twist you are placing additional twist on the already-spun fibres, which is then going to naturally want to untwist.

To help explain what an S twist v.s. a Z twist is, I drew this picture:

8735.png

[dearbone]

Rick,

First i want to mention that, it took me three months to get the real feel of thread waxing/twisting and that was under a watchful eyes of an 86 years old shoe maker,so what i am trying to say here is, Don't lose heart,but keep making thread until it becomes second nature so to speak,because it is a feel after all.
Looking at your thread,hard to tell from here what happened,it could be not enough sticky wax on the strands to hold them together or the twist was loose,but when you rub with leather you will be able to see if your twist was loose,it is important to pull the halved thread tight before twisting on the knee/thigh and not let go until you rub it with leather to create heat to melt the wax to thread, another factor to untwist thread is small holes(smaller than thread),but i don't think it is the case here,one more thing, when you run the sticky wax over the thread,make sure it is soft enough to sink the strands in the wax,being cold here in winters,i put the wax in front of a heat source to soften a little before applying it to the strands,that's all i can think of for now, sooner or later, you will sort out this one too.

Regards
Nasser

[dw]

Alasdair, Rick,

What a great illustration!! You could be a professional artist!.

I didn't look at the yarn I have stashed away itself so I don't know how it is twisted [isn't it twisted one direction in the southern hemisphere and another in the northern hemisphere? ], but I always twist my strands together same as you (I don't think the hand or the thigh makes a difference) with the taw to the right and rolling it on the leg away from you. This results (if I'm reading your illustration right) in a a "Z" twist--one that is clockwise when looked at from the taw, or bristle end.

Rick,

I almost guarantee that twisting the thread the other way will solve your problem.

BTW, it is possible to twist the thread too tight, in my opinion, just as it is possible to stretch a piece of leather too far. So don't fall prey to the "more is better" canon.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Rick,

BTW, looking at the ball of yarn in the photo you provided, I think I can detect a counter-clockwise twist. And, further, looking at the twisted thread in your photo, it strongly suggests that both the yarn and the thread are twisted in the same direction.

All of which underscores Alasdair's comments.

What have you got to lose? Try twisting it the other way...see what happens.

Then take two chocolate chip cookies and call me in the morning.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on January 16, 2009)