The Crispin Colloquy

Al,

Thanks Al. I was hoping you'd post something on this...hoping you weren't keeping mum out of concern for my feelings. You da man when it comes to hand stitching...doing it day in and day out. You're the one who has inspired me and guided me in this regard.

I hear you on all the tips. Thanks. I know I'll try this technique again (just not for production) and your advice will be foremost on my mind. If I could get my skills up to a point where each stitch was evenly tensioned...if I could get my skills to the point where I didn't have to push stitches into alignment **at all**, I might just offer it as an option. It drives me nuts trying to control alignment, though. I can tell you that. By the time I finished I was going along pretty good and not having too much problem with alignment...but *any* is too much in my book.

I wish you'd post a close-up of your stitch work for a standard...or a close-up of Lobb's work... (or someone in the same league).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Glad to have inspired you somewhat, but I'm no "master" at this method of hand-stitching, even though I do it a lot. I can't recall ever getting around a forepart with the square awl with no "flyers" [my nickname for the odd stitch that jumps out of place]. But that's what the jigger and stitch-prick are for, straightening-up the messy ones afterwards. I suppose if you were paid by the piece to hand-stitch welts/soles @ 12 per inch, and did several a day, over time one would get frighteningly good at it, like anything else done that frequently. Tension is key here, as well as odd-stranded threads [yes Janne], plus not having them twisted too tightly.

I don't think a picture of my stitching would be anybody's standard, but I'll see if I have an example where there's at least a clean run that will fill the whole frame without showing any "flyers" : D

I'm still getting acquainted with my new computer, and it's giving me fits, so don't hold your breath.

Bill,

As per our phone conversation, here's a shot of three different square, or stitching, awls.

Hope that helps...



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

To D.A. Saguto
Just talked to Larry Waller about the channeling machine. I have one. Email me tom@civilwarboots.com
D.W. my aplogies if this is in the wrong place

DW,
In tune with the others, Congratulations, keep it up; you'll get there (Trans. Lots of good natured laughing)

As usual the bottoming blows me away

Cheers
Duncan

Duncan,

Thanks.

I don't know if I'll ever get good at it. For one thing I have easy access to the curved needle stitcher and I'm a pretty fair hand with it. It's hard to justify an hour and a half stitching per pair (guessing) by hand versus 7 minutes with a machine.

And the other thing is, I **like** the looks of the machine work, welt side...even though it's hard to beat the results soleside with the hand stitching.

I'm still fiddling with it though and there's still things I want to try and still some room to learn and get better.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Sewing contra glue


I'm back in the the store again and have been reading what you are up to.

We have customers with facrory shoes that come 5 plus times for resoling. If we sew them each time the leather would be cut in half in no time. The only people that have problems with just glue are all the soldiers that come in to us. They can be hard on thier boots. With that said we do sew them if asked for or that type of shoe is normally done that way.

I have a question about the outsole stitching. As I understand it ( here in Denmark) the cord isn't locked with each stitch as done in other parts of the boot construction. Is that the way you do it?

A Cold Texan
CW

CW,

I don't know any maker, personally, who uses anything but a lock stitch for sewing outsoles, whether it's done with a curve needle or by hand. Are you saying that in Denmark it's done by some other method..that wasn't real clear...to me.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley Craig
Member-HCC

Surly if it is done by hand it is like a saddle stitch

Carl

Carl,

A saddle stitch is sewn from both sides of the project and won't actually give you a lock stitch. It's quite possible there is another way to do a saddle stitch, but I'm not aware of it. In my opinion, a lock stitch is totally different from a saddle stitch. Someone can probably clarify that better.

Riley

Sometimes that's called a "shoemaker's stitch."

It's exactly the same stitch we all use when we inseam...that is, if we're inseaming with bristles and waxed ends. You can throw a twist into the stitch which effectively locks it especially if you're using a good pitch based handwax. But you don't want any twist when stitching outsoles. So... I guess you could say there's no lock used when "outseaming."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

These terms can get confusing.

Of course the lockstitch I was picturing was the machine made one in which there is a top thread and a bottom , meeting and interlocking in the center of the work.

Carl

Locked stitch ?

From what i read DW understands what i mean.
When i write locked stitch, I mean when you are sewing the uppers to the welt and insole(Is this the right term in english). Any way, what you do is tie a type of knot when you twist the cords together before pull them taught. this locks the stitch.
When sewing the outsole the only thing that locks the stitch is the pitch. I mean no twist takes place.
By the way this process takes place by hand. I have no idea what a machine does, which is bad considering we have one in the shop.I haven't learned to use it yet.

by the way thanks for the response

CW

I'm sure DW knows what you mean.

I, on the other hand, Don't know what anything means.

Carl

Carl

I can see one of the people in the know haven't answered, so I'll try the best I can. I'm still a beginner by far in building shoes. That's why I start a little trouble, to get some people talking.


When you are sewing the welt and so on together you loop the cords around each other almost making a knot. This "locks" the stitch when you pull the cord taught guickly. The pitch heats up and locks the stitch when combined with the looping of the cord.From what I've been told you can cut a stitch with out it effecting the rest ( because of the "lock" )
I have thought about why I haven't seen anybody lock the stitches on the outsole. I think it's because of the following. a cobbler/bootmaker can repair/resole the boot/shoe with out damaging the welt. I know from experience that it sucks when you have to sew a new welt on and use the same holes(in the uppers ) and so on. This can be avoided every ???? third time by not locking the outsole which makes it easier to use the same holes on the welt. that is if you want to stitch it on. Alot of people just glue it on in repair work.They leave the stitches in the welt for the sake of looks. If you look for proof of stitches by looking for a lip on the outsole, you will not see anything.

I must admit that I feel a little out of place writting about this when there are much !! more experienced people out there.

CW

Chris,
Those in the "know" (which is not me) usually wait out of courtesy and to encourage new and different ideas. Most attempt not to dominate but when individuals will not attempt to step up and share information the colloquy is not near as effective. Thanks for your info.

Gary

My comments about people that have more experience are far from an attack on anybody.
If I was writing some form of attack you would really know it. I'm sorry that you read my comments that way.
As to dominating the group, I have no! problems with those who have done this type of work for along time saving others time by telling what they know. In the system I teach we believe in giving students knowledge so they can reach the same level we are in a shorter time. I don't see why the disc. group should be different. but then again I'm just one person.

Take care.
CW

Gary, Chris,

I don't know about anyone else but I didn't take anything in this discussion as an attack. Maybe that's because I did throw my two cents worth in several posts ago.

But Chris has the business of putting a twist in the stitch just about spot on, I'd guess. The reason we don't introduce a twist when hand stitching the outsoles (although we often do when inseaming) is that it causes the stitching on the welt to twist and lay unevenly. We also don't pull the "top" thread down as tightly as we might if we were stitching the side welt or some other piece of leather. It's snug but not "sunk" into the leather of the welt, if you see what I mean. Again, we do this for esthetic reasons--to control the lay of the weltside stitch. I found that you can regulate the tension of the top stitches...finish tightening them up a bit....when you tighten up the subsequent soleside stitch.

Having said all that, I'm not an expert at handstitching the outsole, having only done it once. I'm just passing on tips and "crans" that have been passed on to me or previously posted here on the Colloquy.

Of course, machine stitching the outsole results in entirely different look and an entirely different technique...the machine automatically makes a "lockstitch." The only way to emulate that technique by hand is to use a jerk needle.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Chris
Stuff like this kills me. TOTAL misinterpretation. It was an encouragement!! Those in the "know" i.e. DW, Tex, Al, Mark to name the ones I know. Those people may, and usually have an answer but usually (I assume out of curtsey) wait and see if there are any other views. That way the forum gets a whole great mix.
I have reread my post and cannot see how you read an attack out of that. The only thing I can see is you took it personal, you consider your self more in the know (not an attack, just observation--"the system I teach" ) and thought I was attacking you. Since I am unaware of your background that was not my intent.
For several years "ghost" seem to loom and not share. I was just stating I'm glad you share and are not a ghost type.

Gary

Sorry if my comments seem hard. It was not my intent. Sometimes I forget how things can be misread. Maybe I was a lttle defensive, I did't quite feel it was my place to explain because of my lack of experience in the field.

About my background. I mention the students we have and so on because I learn quite alot from my instructors and teaching my own students. I try to hold titles and so on out of this group except when mentioning something that i think is relavent.


DW

thank you for explaining more about the stitching, it's nice to know that things work more or less the same way back home to.


My break is over ta'll have a nice day.
CW

curtsey?? My mistake, spell check in word changed it for me. I did not proof. -Courtesy- should have been my word of choice. Chris no harm no foul.

Gary

I talked to my wife last night and she reminded me that I'm fast to "bite" when I reach a certain level of stress. Let's say I need to buy you a beer if we ever meet.

CW

Carl has learned that there are lockstitches and then there are LOCKSTITCHES

And both of them could be in the same boot.

Just an add on to what DW said, a sewing machine stitch is totally different from a hand sewn seam. You can get an idea of what the stitch is like if you go compare a bag of dog food (or similarly sewn bag -- the ones where you can just pop the seam in the right place and the whole thing comes unraveled) and a seam on your clothes.

In most forms of sewing machine, the needle pulls the thread down into the material where the thread gets looped around (either the bobbin - which slips a second thread into the equasion, or in the case of the bobbinless machines around the looping hook, in which case you only have the single thread) and then the needle brings it back the material creating the stitch.

As with automatic transmissions there are some sorts of machinery that are pretty much black magic.

Marc

Yes and to totally confuse every one the Fallon company has a new mckay lockstitch sewing machine with a top and bottom thread but no bobbins. I have not a clue as to how it works but they assure me thru Hudson that for a mere $19,000 I would never have to change another bobbin.

Cheeseundcrackers
Tom Mattimore