Outsoles

[mack]

DW,
This kind of stitching is only perfected by practice.The square awls are hard to find and come with differing sizes and curves.You need to make sure your awl is suitable for the weight of stitch needed. The curve of the awl takes getting used to,you need to feel the 'balance' of the awl. this is the way it pushes through the sole without twisting it or you will break it
You then cut the channel on the sole to accomodate where the awl will naturally put the stitch. I remember when learning using a thin strip of kid around the upper to help place the top stitch it also helped to stop the thread marking the upper which can be a problem on some leathers.
Sole stitching is also best done in one hit so you get a nice even stitch,stopping and starting make it harder. These are my initial thoughts
Its not something I have had to put in words before so sorry if its a bit random .I will think about it and see if I get some better
ideas
Regards Mack.

[mack]

DW,
You also asked about bevelled waists.This is quite a tricky look to get right. You are correct to note that the insole needs to be prepared in a certain way depending how much you want to nip the waist in. The substance of the welt is skived down thinner and the sole is also reduced in the waist area so when finished from the side, the bevelled waist looks thinner than the forepart The waist is sewn rather than stitched with a very curved light sewing awl and hammered tight to the upper ready for the iron.
The iron is very important. It must be completely smooth so it cannot snag on the edge.In the old days makers would often recut their irons ,especially waist irons just to get the shape they desired to produce better shoes such was the competition for work.
When finishing I usually set the waist first as this gives proportion for the heel and general look.The shoe must not only fit and be well made but it must look good .
I'm sure you have a good idea of this method from others so I may not be telling you anything new.
Regards Mack.

[dw]

Mack,

Thanks for both of your replies. I think Al also mentioned the idea of using a thin strip of leather up next to the vamp to create a guide for stitching. I didn't think it was anything as thin as kidskin but the real problem I had there was that I couldn't figure out how to affix the strip to the side of the vamp without using rubber cement or something like it. I suppose dextrine might work ...and it would wash off too. But I'd welcome any guidance on that score.

As for the beveled waists, we do them all the time on western boots...but we peg them rather than sew them. Your tip about sewing rather than stitching opened my eyes, though. On my first pair of shoes I did a beveled waist (stitched) and I did it generally as you suggested. I did cut the feather wider through the shank (waist) to inset the welt deeper. But the real problem I had was that even though it came out pretty good, the stitches were still a bit proud and slightly visible. Kind of ruined the effect. I think you can see that in the photo below. I don't know if it was simply using the square awl through the waist rather than a sewing awl or whether it was not cutting the feather wide enough...or what.

We also had a discussion about channeling the outsole some months back. I ended up cutting in from the edge at a 45° angle...which worked pretty good around the forepart but when I got to the waist the sole had been thinned and so I couldn't cut either at that steep an angle or so deep. It was not an eyesore but it wasn't elegant either. And in the final finishing, the stitching was always in danger of being exposed because the "flap" over the channel was so thin. I feel like I'm making it up as I go along (despite the generous advice already proffered) just because I've never seen it done.

6674.png

Thanks for taking the time.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

DW,
If you have been trying to stitch the bevelled waist with a square awl you will never get the desired effect.
From your picture I'm guessing this has been set and finished by machine, If I'm wrong apologies , but my point is a hand iron is the only way to get the tight close to the upper look seen on bespoke shoes.
When cutting the channel in the waist,which I do freehand with a knife I run a bone edge inside the channel to give a little dip for the thread to sit in then when the sewing is complete rub the stitches down with the bone before closing the channel.
For the leather strip we attached a piece of elastic making a loop and this would provide tension to hold it in place, but you will soon not need this once you have stitched a few more soles.
I use hemp ( linen ) thread and nylon bristles
I have no idea about using other materials as this is all I have ever used but I imagine synthetic thread could also be used.
Hope this is of some help. I agree with you nothing written can give the idea as well as seeing it done.I had similar problems with closing as I had to ask around and just try things out to get a reasonable result.
Regards Mack

[dw]

Mack,

Thank you for your advice.

So...sounds like my big mistake was using the square awl in the waist.

The forepart was indeed set by machine...I have been doing that for 35 years and my skill with a hand forepart iron is not equal to my skill with a revolving burnishing iron. But the waist was set by hand--poorly from your comments (but it's OK, I knew that).

The elastic is a good trick. I'll try that.

I used linen and a split nylon bristle on my first pair. Standard hand wax...which I thought might be too tacky (I'm sure it wasn't). I inspected a West End shoe and noted that the thread was four strands of #10 linen yarn. So, in the spirit of science, I tried to do the same thing. I have some good Campbells Irish linen and that's what I used, but it kept pulling apart. Four cords was just not enough...any more was too much. I think I will try a four cord synthetic on this next pair...not quite the thing but waxed with a good hand wax it's close...kind of.

I will be bottoming my second pair of shoes in a couple of weeks (closing now) and I will get a chance to try these techniques. And I will thank you again at that time.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

Can someone explain the function of wrapping the leather around other than to protect the upper. Or is that it?

[lancepryor]

Mack:

A few related questions. Do you use leather for the shank? If so, is it insole leather or outsole leather? For a beveled/fiddleback waist, do you use a second piece of leather (or some other cover) on the shank to provide the shape to the sole, or is there some other trick? On my last shoe (picture in the "Gallery" section of the Colloquy), I thinned the welt and the outsole and was able to get a bit of the bevelled waist, but I couldn't get the fiddleback shape to the bottom of the sole.

Also, in terms of the thread used for the sole stitching -- how tightly do you twist this thread? I twisted it quite tightly when I made my shoe, but in discussion others have suggested it should be fairly loosely twisted. Is this something you can describe (e.g. approximate number of twists/inch in the finished thread) or something you just have to see to be able to understand? Finally, it there any sort of relationship between the stitch length (e.g. 10 to the inch), and the number of strands that one should use?

Thanks.
Lance

[lancepryor]

Rick:

I think it also helps you sew a straight line of stitching, since you can butt the awl up against the leather before piercing the welt, and thus the stitch will always be the same distance from the upper. Doing it freehand (w/o the leather) requires you to eyeball the placement of each stitch relative to the upper. If you do the latter, I find that doing it with plenty of light helps -- when I did it with less than bright light, my placment of stitches was not as consistent.

Lance

[relferink]

Mack,

First of all welcome to the Colloquy. Sounds like a lot of people, including myself are eager to draw every last bit of shoe making knowledge out of you. Hope it's not to intimidating. Make sure to tell us to back off if we get carried away as we sometimes do. Deep down we're a nice bunch and mean well.

DW,
If you don't mind let me jump in here as well. One of the things I've seen you do on the videos is letting go of your bristles when your sewing an inseam and I assume you do the same when sewing an outsole.
I was taught to hang on to those bristles for dear life and never let them touch the floor.
The limited amount of hand sewing I have done has taught me that I do get a more consistent stitch if I hold on the the bristles and don't have to go looking for them every stitch I make. Wonder if Mack has some thoughts on that as well.

Just my

Rob

[dw]

Rick,

I believe I can answer this one (correct me if I misunderstood you, Mack)....

The leather strip is placed up next to the vamp as a guide for the distance from the vamp that the point of the square awl enters the welt. It is a spacer ensuring that your stitches are aligned and neither too close nor too far from the vamp.

Make any sense?

Al Saguto outlined this technique several times here on the forum, but I think he was temporarily cementing the strip to the upper. Mack suggested a piece of elastic.

As Mack suggested, it's like a set of training wheels. I don't know about anyone else, but I for one, need training wheels.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Rob,

Always value your comments. You are one of the good one--willing to learn and willing to teach.

As for letting go of the bristles, I know, I know...I was taught not to let go as well. Maybe not as forcefully as you were. At any rate, I couldn't get the hang of it in my early days and I had boots to make so I just plowed ahead. It never took and now I have to think to not drop them. And who want to do that (think, I mean)?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Lance,

Looks like our ship passed in the night. Sorry about that. Your response to Rick was spot-on and mine was redundant. Oh well..."it bears repeating."


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

Would this leather strip be used instead of a stitch marker wheel or in addition to? Seems like the wheel mark sets the distance from the vamp too.

I will admit, I managed to scratch my upper with the dang stitch wheel axle protrusion last time.

I recall Ad Horverst told me never mark your distance between stitches. He said, if you need to do that, you shouldn't be making shoes! A bit harsh, I think, but his point being to develop an eye for stitching and not have them come out machine straight.

[dw]

Rick,

The stitch marker would set distance between stitches, the leather strip controls distance of stitch line from vamp.

Rob,

In my defense (admittedly a poor one) I do tell folks in that video you mentioned that the tradition is to never let the thread drop. Makes me wish I could take it back and revise it though.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Lance,
On a normal bevelled waist shoe the edges are bevelled and the waist is usually rounded.
For a fiddle back the edge is bevelled and the waist has a ridge along the middle. These are both achieved by using leather that is shaped to the desired effect.If you want a very exaggerated shape you need more leather but be careful not to overdo it as the shoe must be functional. You see some very fine shapes on exhibition work but I think it should be toned down for everyday work.
You can use shoulder or sole leather but try to use firm leather where you can. The rest of the shaping can be done with thinning the sole
I do twist my threads not sure how many times its kind of instinctive now but as you sew the thread does lose some twist so I often give it a little twist before I pull the stitch in this helps give the stitches an even appearance.
Yes there is a relationship between the no of stitches per inch and the thickness of thread
and its quite important to get it right for shoe strength and also it makes the sewing easier.I don't have time now to explain it all but I will get back to you with a proper answer later.
Regards Mack.

[mack]

Robert ,
Thanks for the welcome, I am amazed at the interest there is in my ideas on shoemaking,there are no right or wrong ways to make shoes , so if a method works keep doing it that way.
The idea of keeping the bristles in your hand is a good one.I was taught this and it certainly speeds things up ( we are paid piecework )and I think makes the whole thing neater. Stitching is a very methodical thing and these little tricks make it easier.
Regards Mack.

[romango]

As long as we're on the subject...

Why is a square awl best for outsole stitching? I have several and am using them. I am just unclear why they give a better result than round awls.

[mack]

Hello Rick,
We call square awls stitching awls and round awls sewing awls,they allow the thread to sit in different ways. A square awl allows stitches to sit close to each other in a way that is strong and pleasing to the eye. You can use a sewing awl and 'sew' the sole on in fact in some styles e.g. blind welt this is what is done but in general fine work is stitched. If we had the range of sizes of awls available in years gone by it would open up scope for some finer work but awls seem in very short supply now, unless things are different in the U.S ?
Regards Mack.

[das]

Rick,

The square (point) stitching blade has only been used in the higher-end work traditionally/historically. If archaeology tells us anything on this, in the 18thc and most of the 19thc. most welt-stitching, good, bad, and indifferent, was indeed done with the common sewing (oval) awl. Square (point) stitching awls were/are also much harder to master--the slightest twist or wiggle and *snap* goes the blade. Rees (1813) and Devlin (1839 & 40) gave the rationale behind the square-awl: it allows smaller stitches/closer placement with heavier threads than you can achieve with an oval-section sewing awl, and the feeling back then (before AP cements) was the more thread and wax in the work, the more solid the join. There were arguments of course. The 18thc. English shoes (men's) were frequently "stitched aloft" with a sewing awl (no channel or groove underneath--stitches exposed), and done very neatly, but with very heavy threads (to our eye). Some argued that any channel under the sole only weakened it, and limited the weight of stitching thread you could use (and still get the channel to close over it). There are some fine examples, especially boots, with stitching threads in the sole and heel (rand) as thick as kite string or thicker, and it's not an unpleasant effect, though a bit dated these days.

The use of modern adhesives (AP cements, etc.) to stick the soles on prior to welt-stitching renders much of this moot, as the cement's doing a lot of the bonding. But, if you make a traditional hand-sewn shoe, and only use paste to stick your soles on, it becomes an issue once more. So consider this: in heavy wear stitched-aloft (with a sewing awl/no channel) has proven in our shop to only be marginally more apt to give way, than work stitched with the stitching awl and a channel underneath. In either cases, it's only when the sole's worn through a hole in the middle anyway that the stitched-aloft work has let go at the welt-stitching.

As hard as stitching-awls in any size are to find these days, if you find them, buy them up

[dw]

Rick, Mack, Al,

I believe, if I recall correctly, that Colin Barnsley of Woodware Repetitions...

Colin Barnsley
Woodware Repetitions Ltd.
47 Mowbray Street
Sheffield S3 8EN
England
T: 011+44+114+272-6060

...has some old stock square awls that were left over when Barnsley and Sons went tips up.

I got some stuff from him through Edwin Hales about a year or better ago. Some of the stuff appears to be "odd" if you know what I mean--maybe manufactured by an outworker but not quite up to snuff and then warehoused by Barnsley and Sons only to be rediscovered by Colin when he took over the remnants of the firm.

For instance, I bought ten small (2"?)inseaming awls from him, along with a bunch of other awls (including some square awls) and they were curved so extremely that the point of the awl was well over 90° in opposition to the shank of the awl.

The square awls I got seemed fine but at the time I did not know I was going to want them.

BTW, for those just wanting to play around with this technique (creative, exploratory play) but not wanting to scour the earth for square awls, I have a square awl I made by grinding the blade of a 3½" inseaming awl flat on either side. I use it everytime I make a pair of boots...hand stitching the last inch or so of the welt (my machine won't get in under the arch unless I take the last out). Not the kind of use/abuse that a West End maker might put to it, but it is roughly seven, maybe ten, years old now and has never bent or snapped (obviously). Just a thought...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Al,
Great historical info.I only know about the small West End world I work in so its good to get a wider perspective.
DW,
I spoke to Colin Barnsley a couple of years ago so I might contact him again to get an update. Good luck with the next pair.
Lance,
With regard to number of stitches per inch and number of strands for the thread.
Quarter inch edge is the norm and this is usually stitched 10 or 11 per inch using 4 or 5 cords depending on the weight of hemp you have .What is more important is that the awl size and the thread match.If the hole made is too big the thread will not fill the hole properly and you will also struggle to fit the stitches in.
If the hole is too small the thread gets stripped of wax and will break.Most makers have a number of different size awls to deal with the various weights of sole and thread thickness.
As a rough guide for sole thickness

1/2 inch 7 spi 6 cords
5/16 inch 8 or 9 spi 5 cords
1/4 inch 10 or 11 spi 4 or 5 cords
3/16 inch 12, 13 or 14 spi 3 or 4 cords
1/8 16 or 18 spi 3 cords

You might have to vary this depending on the hemp you have available. For the smaller stitching you need to use a finer hemp or you can rub the thread with an awl before waxing it to reduce the thickness
This is only a rough guide. some work requires a fine stitch and other work needs a heavier look
Its often down to shop style or a customers particular request
If you dont have the tools for all this variety stick to 10 or 11 spi and 4 or5 cords I dont think you will go far wrong
Hope this is of some use .
Regards Mack

(Message edited by Mack on January 17, 2008)

[lancepryor]

To add to DW's message -- I have bought the following square awls from Colin Barnsley via Edwin Hale:

2 1/2 inch
2 5/8 inch
2 7/8 inch
3 1/8 inch
3 1/2 inch

I believe Colin has/had some sizes in between these sizes (e.g. 2 3/4 inch, 3 inch, etc); I bought a variety of sizes that I thought would give me a broad range without breaking the bank. Most of the awls are marked Barnsley, but a few are marked Ullathorne, London.

Note that (as is implicit in Mack's comments) each different length of awl also has a different diameter, so each is optimized for a specific size of thread. However, we beginners probably don't need to worry about that yet!

My impression is that Barnsley are unlikely to ever make any more of these square awls, as the dies were destroyed and there is insufficient demand to merit the creation of new dies; so, if you're interested, get'em while you can.


As I have previously written, Colin also has/had(?) a wide range of inseaming awls.

Lance

[das]

Mack,

Here's a question: is there still a tendency to prefer even numbered strands (e.g. 4,6,8) for stitching threads, because they lay flatter on the welt than odd nunbered?

Also, do you advocate running the fudge wheel around the welt first to establish stitches per inch, or do you do it "blind" and prick them individually as they lay?

[dw]

All,

Well I wonder what the most appropriate size of stitching awl would be for men's work on dress shoes...say a 10/11 iron sole and 10 to 11 spi?

I've got square awls but if they are like land (not making any more of it) I may want to purchase more.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Al,
Im not aware of using even numbered strands for that reason, it may well have been a practice before my time. Unfortunately today because we are so limited with the range and quality of hemp I think its a compromise to achieve the thread thickness needed, thin clean hemp is hard to find.
I do run the fudge wheel on a damp welt to mark the stitches and all the makers I know do the same.
I remember seeing some older makers pricking out the stitches and I believe it requires a higher level of skill. Sometimes you need to prick out a few individual stitches that dont lay well but if the fudge is used correctly it gives a very pleasing result.
We have lost so much knowledge from our past in shoe and bootmaking it is no suprise that we struggle to produce work of a similar quality today. Your historical knowledge is a very valuable source of tradition and work methods which I find very interesting to read.
Regards Mack