Outsoles

[dearbone]

DW
You are gracious.
Nasser

[chuck_deats]

Lyle,

Thanks for the website. Looks like a good one. Have you done business with them?

Chuck

[rocketman]

Hey Chuck,
I thought that I did, but looking back through my records, I don't show any receipts. I am definitely looking at some of their stuff though.
Lyle

[ridgerunrbunny]

I placed an over the net order with the sierra boots site and never heard from them. not even an email. I did not call them, so in the meantime I did call Southern Leather and got some cloud and protective soling. Now I saw somewhere on this forum which sides were glued to which sides but I cant find it. So here goes, on the cloud, which side is glued to the topsole and on the protective soleing, does that cover the whole or can I put a heel on over it?

Bunny

[ridgerunrbunny]

Adhesive question, which side of the cloud takes the glue better?

[fred_coencped]

Hi Bunny,Glad to see your success with Mary at Southern Leather.Cloud is the same on both sides ,except one side is rough the other side is smooth,usually.You must rough both sides to clean and prepare the surfaces.I suggested to you to use a Topy outsole material which I think you are referring to as a protective layer approx.3/32nds thickness Cloud is a 35 durometer, a measure of hardness or softness.Soleflex while harder has a durometer of 55.I think the hardness of the "protective outsole"is about 75 so it is scuff resistant .I generally prefer Soleflex for its ability to resist compression.For heavier clients Soletech also produces a 65 durometer Soleflex.What grinding equipment do you use?It is important to abraid all your materials to hold your soling materials together,like Iron !I think Cloud gets a little too soft and will compress sooner ,which can be detrimental for bio - mechanical reasons, allowing too much motion in the foot and ankles.Any unwanted over compensation can lead to other compensatory problems.But on the other hand Cloud does offer a good deal of cushioning.Ok,hope this info helps.What are you trying to accomplish?Are you making your first shoe?Where are you in your quest?I am just curious......thoughtfully,Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

Just noticed that it says Soleflex and I did say to Mary that 55 durometer was recommended to me. That's probably what she sent instead of cloud. She called the sheet a "protective" something another in reference to the other 44"X33" sheet.

Yes I am making my first outstiched pair of shoes. No lasts yet, I formed it around my own foot according to Sharon's book. Took Hubbies foot print yesterday to start a slip on mule for him. Everything is stitched up on mine and ready to go on the outsole. I may need to get more adhesive, I have three types but don't know which is best. I think Barge was suggested to me. I was hoping to put a heel on it for some added lift. My feet and legs are getting unstable due to my own excess weight. I hoped that would help.

ummm, grinding, , I'm sure Hubby has something I can use, he is always grinding, my own would be a dremel, which I used for silver smithing once upon a time. That logically seems too small. I have all kinds of hand tools, rasps maybe? Or best electric?

Bunny

[hidesmith]

Bunny,
My first sole grinder was a sanding drum in a drill press. My second was a flat, table mounted belt sander, which I used for several years. It had the capability of quickly changing the belt to go from coarse to fine. It also had to be mounted on an incline, so as to enable me to use the rounded part, "down-stream" on the sanding belt.

Barge is used successfuly throughout the Trade as a general adhesive. Most of us started out using it, and many still do.

Bruce

[fred_coencped]

Bunny,The addition of a heel to your stitch down construction shoe requires a rigid shank support to stabilize the midfoot ,otherwise you will create an unstable shoe.If you want a 1/2"heel lift you will do better to build in a wedge construction.Grinding and balancing a wedge creates hazardous dust .Barge has serious toxic fumes,therefore protect yourself with ventilation and dust mask OK.I use Masters all purpose glue more than Barge because it dries very fast and both glues can be reactiveted with a heat gun.Two thin coats are better then any heavy coatings.Let the 1st coat dry then add a second coat let it get tacky or even dry to the touch and reactivate one side then press,and hammer.Again I hope this helps you.A lot of cheap imported shoes bottom out quickly because of a lack of midfoot construction in their design.I have done some experimenting with pattern development to incorporate in the design draft a rocker in the heel and toe spring in the forefoot.I do not know of Sharons book,but toe spring at least will allow the foot to roll over gracefully opposed to slapping the ground.I hope this transmission of ideas makes sense to you,Ok,Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

"rocker in the heel and toe spring in the forefoot"

Toe spring brings to mind pulling the toe section up while adhering it to the soleing, but I don't recollect rocker in the heel. How is this accomplished?

Bunny

[fred_coencped]

Good morning Bunny,The median pattern should account for toe spring within the parameter of lets say with a heel height of 1/2" to 3/4".Then the heel rocker is made by altering the heel base by shortening the height from the bottom of your heel curve up about 3/4",then trimming the heel base about 1/2 way forward to the apex of your heel more or less.I have accomlished this process the first time a few years ago for tai chi slippers with a stich down construction ,and I discoverered the slippers were very naturally oriented for driving.The median pattern or what I learned in school is also known as the Draft.This Design Draft allows us to find all of the landmark points to design any shoe ,boot or sandal.Try to get a pair of last from Bruce Graham,as offered.Dick Anderson also has Lasts.Anyway Hi Bruce,I really am glad to have been re-acquainted with you @ the AGM. You are so right about being humbled by incredible ,talented designers and shoe/boot makers.I did learn a lot,and also share your sentiments with you and many many others in view of cultivating and preserving our craft.You are a Shoemaker in my book .Heartfelt regards to you and yours,Peace,Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

I don't understand this part:

""Then the heel rocker is made by altering the heel base by shortening the height from the bottom of your heel curve up about 3/4",then trimming the heel base about 1/2 way forward to the apex of your heel""

This sounds like a dart being defined. Am I close?

[fred_coencped]

Bunny A dart is really needed anyway to form the heel curve .First assuming you develop a 2 dimensional design draft which incorporates the medial and lateral ball from heel breast to toe,then you can proceed as described.This is where you will need the dart because you can not shape the bottom of the heel as needed for a stitch down construction [or make the back seam curve then you will not need a dart].Either way you will create the back heel curve.I like to avoid a back seam personally.At least with a dart the seam is only at the bottom...Do you have a design draft or median pattern developed?The apex of the heel landmark is right under the bottom of your heel about 1/2 way from the back of your heel to what is the breast of the shoes heel.This is my best effort I can muster up to verbalize an explanation of the rocker heel.Otherwise I can demonstrate the adjustment if you want to send a copy of your design draft ok.Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

Naw, I am following some designs from Sharon Raymonds book. "Crafting Handmade Shoes". Outside of those I do not have a design draft or median pattern. Not quite sure what that would entail. Guess I need a dictionary. I can't run before I learn how to walk. She (Sharon) states that separate heels take up 1/3 of the foot. Sounded good to me.

[fred_coencped]

OK Bunny,Now I think I see!ABC`s of shoemaking as opposed to scrambling around the alphabet.....The last comes first ,so lets get you a pair of last.Have you measured your feet and taken traces ,standing for tracings,sitting with your feet on the tracings to measure girth and short heel.Girth measurements basics,the ball of your feet,big toe joint around the little toe,the waist, the instep and short heel from the base of the heel around the ankle joint approx 1' forward of the "L shape"formed between the foot and leg.This would approx. the low short heel.No matter if you get a used last or a new last from Bill Tippit the last needs to be modified to your individual measuements.Old wooden lasts are easier to modify then the newer plastic lasts to your measurements.Copying the mean forme of the last is later .There are shortcuts that are easier for creating your design draft/mean forme.You can still make your stitch down shoes or begin your efforts to hand lasting.Shoemaking is a lifetime of study and is art and science.I think Al Saguto has suggested to you the degree of dedication required for all of us passionately involved .I hope to help you on your journey here Bunny,so one of my mentors put it to me most eloquaintly "if your heart is into it it is impossible to fail".I cherish his words and believed him.So learn where you can from whomever and try to start out as simple as you can .I was told also my first 50 pairs of shoes I wouldn't even want to look at. Try to get some of the newer books on the market like Tim Skymes knew book and video`s.Maybe check with Larry Waller ,he has some stuff I wish I could of gotten my hands on 35 years ago.OK ,Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

Thank you much.

[fred_coencped]

Bunny,You are welcome!Fred

[ridgerunrbunny]

Has anybody ever used "Lectro-Stik" wax base adhesive? Hubby had a box hiding in his stash, and I've never seen it before. He said he used to use it 100 years ago and thought it was quite good. Is it any good for shoes?

Bunny

[marcell]

Someone knows how do the make this stitch-channel?

http://www.mpshoes.cz/www/show.php?img=step/16

[dw]

Marcell,

Not sure what you are referring to. I'm pretty sure you already channel your outsoles.

There is a tool that will cut a channel straight in from the edge but I think most makers prefer a common shoemakers knife and to cut the channel at a more severe angle than is shown in the photo.

Maybe you mean something different?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

Marcell,

Great picture! And what an example of this technique! Thank you for posting it.

It looks to me like these grooves were done free hand. There are several different tools I've seen that could do this, some with a guide. I'd be interested to see the knife that cut the flap!

I have an old tool from an estate sale that actually looks like it was designed to do both, cut the flap on the one side and make the groove on the other side of the tool. But the groover is worn very shallow. I don't know what it's called, nor can I find it in Salamans Dictionary of Leatherworking Tools.

I'll be reading other posts in answer to your question.

Paul

[dearbone]

Marcell,
I posted a picture on October,28,2007 It is archive now, Take a look at it and see if it is close to yours, but I do not understand the nature of your question.
Nasser.

[lancepryor]

That's an interesting question, as it appears the channel is cut on from the top surface of the sole, not the edge, yet the cut goes basically parallel to the plane of the sole. If it was not done with a special tool, it would appear one would need a steady hand.

[marcell]

Sorry: it is not my work, I got it from this topic - thatswhy I posted here. I just would like to see the technic in progress. Photo, video, whatever..

Nasser : it is similar to your technic, but there is a slight difference.. I understand your way, but not this.

(Message edited by Marcell on December 12, 2007)

[dw]

Mack,

I hope we don't swamp you with questions but I don't want you to get bored either. I thank you for your kind words about my work but there is skill and then there is that ineffable something that takes the work beyond skill. Your work is among the best we've seen here. And when we have seen that kind of work...I, for one, didn't have the perspective to ask any intelligent questions.

I always say that a good maker should look for three things he can improve upon in every pair...no more than three, no less. If I could improve one thing about my work it would be to "outseam" with the finesse that is evident on the monks of yours that Lance posted. I know the basics...or I think I do...and I have the tools--square awl,thread, wax, boar's bristles (nylon, etc.. But so far it has been a struggle...to place the stitches an even distance from the vamp; to get that sweet "beaded" look; and to do the beveled waist correctly. I guess part and parcel would also be how the insole is channeled for the beveled waist and how the outsole is channeled all around.

Are there "crans," techniques, or tools that make any of this easier? Or if not easier, more controllable?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC