Outsoles

[dw]

Joel,

No, I wouldn't re-wet the outsole completely. I might lay some wet paper towels over the shank area and wrap the boots in a plastic bag for overnight. It could work...

As for the welt...it's personal taste. i like to see the distance from the vamp to the stictching be rrepeated again from the stitching to the edge (the stitching should run down the middle of the welt in other words) but I also run my stitching about (maybe a little less) an eighth inch from the vamp.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

This is my 1st attemp at pegging. I had a hard time making the line for the stitch wheel. Nothing seemed to want to stay on track, especially around the instep. I ended up using a groover but I'm still not satisfied.

The stitching I had done at a shoe repair shop with a Landis 12 Curved Needle Machine. I don't think he had the blade deep enough to recess the stitches. They are setting up to much for me. Also, the stitch isn't right, the bottom thread wasn't pulled through enough. But he did say he had a extra Landis in storage, that's in working order he would sale me under $500. Will see.

Here is a pic of the bottom. Any advance or comments would be greatly appreciated, Joel

4826.jpg

[jesselee]

Joel

If you don't like the peg wheel, go with dividers and scribe the line from sole edge to where you set the pegs. Then caliper each peg hole with the dividers. Thats what I do. Thats really old school. I can d it by eye, but thats too much like work. I prefer to keep the Trade relaxed and slow and deliberate. Don't pay no nevermind to after the pegs are set. When you sand the sole and seal, polish it, you will get that pretty diamong configuration.
JesseLee

[dw]

Joel,

Heck fire, you don't need even need dividers...just use your forefinger (as a distance guide) and your thumbnail to make your line around the back and through the shank--now that's old school! Seriously, I tell all my students that a shoemaker without fingernails is crippled.

I have an old 19th century peg wheel with a double wheel that makes two rows of marks five to the inch. But a single overstitch wheel or a stitch marking wheel set to five to the inch can follow the thumbnail line just fine and the second row you just place close and in-between. There should be about as much room between pegs in the first row as there is room between pegs in adjacent rows--four pegs (two in each row) form the corners of a little square.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

That was my suggestion ie. dividers. not knowing Joel or what level he's at, I reckoned it would help. HA! The old thumb nail, huh! Now that brings back some memories! Yup, gotta have fingernails...
now, yer not dissapointing me by saying that '10 to the inch' is double rowed, are ya! Havin a bit of fun there. Ever use the 1/16 pegs? Seems it would take forever, but the way the awl slips in so gast. Does a sweet job, but you can't buy pegs at 1/16 anymore, you have to make them, which is what I prefer. That way you can get precise lengths so you don't peg the sole to the last. That can be really frustrating!

JesseLee

[jesselee]

Hey Y'all

Has anyone here done thir decorative stitches using the 'back-stitch', by hand? When the back is on the outside it's called the 'rope-stitch', as it resembles rope. That is currently what I am doin with my Mexican Peyote flower patterns on my 1860-70's, reddish brown graft type cowboy boots. Poking those wholes takes an eternity, but the stitching goes fast. I'm using a 3$ Barbours left hand twist linen at 10-12 to the inch and burnishing the stitches down. I'm going with single rows, and dying my cord red just because you can't get it in red, and I like the color contrast. I guess one could go fancy and then do a close row of white and then black.. A bit ambitious, I know, but just rin a demo on some scrap and she's done like dinner. I've been obsessing about that pair, pushing the envelope so to speak. Gonna hate to wear em, but what the Hey, I can always make another. Seems the hardest part will be turning them outside in!

After these, I plan on doing an 1890's dress Wellington style of late 1890's with tops in this stitch and may attempt tooling the shaft, toe bugs stitched (working on my pattern now). These will be a grain side out boot. Probably for the shelf as a visual(but in my size, in case I want to wear 'em) and tooled.

Sorry to be long winded. boot-bug got me in a feverous pitch and my head is miles down the road ahead of my hands.

JesseLee

[dw]

Jesse Lee,

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not about to position myself as really, really "old schoo." At least not in the sense that you seem to mean it.

10 to the inch is the standard for cowboy boots...or at least that's the way I learned...and although I have never wanted to feel the constraints of being labeled as such, I am fundamentally a cowboy bootmaker. I haven't seen any cowboy boots pegged at more than 10ppi nor using the smaller pegs since at least the 30's. But even then i don't think it was common.

That said, although I have small pegs, I also have authentic hard rock maple pegs from the Civil War. they are size-wise indistiguishable from the pegs I use...so more than 10 to the inch was obviously not a big deal (or considered practical) as far back as that.

Bottom line...don't expect all that much from me...I'm a 19th century machinery guy and I prefer to concentrate on technique and finesse (not that I have any claim to it, mind you), not historical purity.

Our resident historian--and objectively the foremost authority on historical footwear in North America--is Al Saguto. Maybe he will weigh in on this Monday or so.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Was just havin a bit of fun with that 10 in a single row pegging. My original CW era pegs concur with yours, same 1/8 inch size, but very straight. I have only seen the 1/16th. inch pegs a few times.

On one pair of Union officers (provinance) from Ohio, that I once owned the boots broke all the rules and were in fact oddities. The pegging was about 8 to the inch single row from the shank to toes to shank. The arch was double pegged. They were a waxed calf with a beautiful Morocco graft. All sewing was tiny machine stitching such as on a domestic machine, the top linings were natural calf and the side seams were a machine lockstitch with string size # 12 linen cord. Foot lining was whipped in. The pegging, natural lining and a lockstitch with heavy cord was most unusual. In collecting over 30 pairs of CW boots in my life (now sold off) and examining hundreds, I never saw the like before. Just shows that we always had innovations.
I'm always turning to Al for old information and bouncin research off'n him. he's a great source.
Jesse

[das]

I'm a long-standing graduate of "the thumb-nail school" (using the thumb/forefinger marking technique). If you read Devlin (1839) I think he tells the story of the elder(?) Hoby, in London, sending men round to trim short the nails of his competitors, or some such.

I've always taught my apprentices the "thumb-nail" technique for marking, but for some reason they have all abandoned it for using fancy trash like wing-dividers, forked bones and sticks, and whatnot. No ides why they won't stay with it--too much money I suspect. I won't allow marking wheels of any sort in my (18thc.) shop either--if you can't sew/stitch/peg a set number per inch by eye, you need to practice more IMO

[dw]

I won't allow marking wheels of any sort in my (18thc.) shop either--if you can't sew/stitch/peg a set number per inch by eye, you need to practice more IMO

Now that's hard core!! And really "old school!"

I guess I need more practice......although there's something to be said for the precise, almost mathematical regularity of evenly (dare I say "perfectly" ), spaced geometric shapes such as diamonds.

Of course, the eye (or at least the untutored eye) will overlook small irregularities--minute discrepancies of spacing--but somewhere down in the Stygian depths of the human psyche, such trivial deviations are noticed and it is my personal and humble opinion that a certain dis-ease is induced which is not easily shaken or dismissed. At a level we can't put our finger on, when order is expected and not closely achieved, our regard for an object is diminished...even if only ever-so-slightly.

Which is why, being subject to all the frailties of old age...and the human condition, I rely on a 19th century peg wheel to set my pegs equidistance apart. I sure wish I could do it by eye. But if the results won't satisfy me, it ain't worth doing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

I guess I should have better stated this. You can't replicate 18thc. work by marking the stitches/pegs ahead, because they went by eye. In the 19thc, you can't replicate their results without using peg-making wheels, etc.

When it comes to preserving old skills, there's "old" (19thc peg-wheels) and then there's ooooold (18thc pre-marking-wheels).

[dw]

Al,

I understand. It does make me feel better, too. Thanks.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tomo]

This is probably as good a place as any to post this, it's to do with pegs.

Why is 'Hard rock Maple' so good for pegs, apart from the obvious fact it's hard.
What are the properties of Maple that make it so good?
And why do they make Lemonwood pegs, is lemonwood from the domestic lemon tree?
What other type of wood will work?

Jesse, what do you use?

More power to y'awl

Tom.

[jesselee]

Tom

I make mine from hardrock maple. I cut my blocks oversize and mark to length and make the length true with a belt sander. I jig them to 1/8 using the jig and a wide plane blade that holds to the jig and makes them true with a hammer blow. I trim the points with a skiving knife, 2 sided points and then cut the slats to size in another true 90% jig. I have a hand held peg plane which is not like a plane at all but a blade cut in 'V's' much like a series of side by side engraving tools. Don't know about Lemonwood, heard of it.

Reason I length size my pegs, is so only the V cut comes through and I don't peg my boot to the last. Pegs have to come through the innersole to hold, if they don't it's a waste of time, the V ends allow the last to be removed, with a bit of effort, then I beat the pegs/soles down on a metal last so they mash out on the points. I find 2 side V's are best for this.

I think hardrock maple is good because of the strength and straigtness you can get. I have tried other woods too. Also the hardrock maple does not shrink and drop out, great for desert wear.
Jesse

[rocketman]

Hey Tom,
The Lemonwood that is sold in Florida is from lemon trees which is really a misnomer because most citrus tress all have a sour orange or tangerine root stock and the lemon or orange etc. part is grafted on it. I can vouch for the fact that lemon wood is tough tenacious stuff. If you see it in any size bigger than say 6" though that is probably not real lemonwood. It is horrible stuff in the back yard because a wood chipper will not cut or shred it and it is rarely straight. Think rats nest on grandious scale where all the twisted sticks have 1" thorns. It takes years to rot even in Florida which means that when we trim trees, the only way to clean up is to burn the stuff. I can see the virtue of it as a material but maple will be much more consistant. FWIW
By the way how is that green monster rebuild going? Is the summer slowing that effort down?
Lyle

[big_larry]

I can't resist the urge to share a bit of my philosophy and the results on an experiment. Being a rather recent boot maker I feel like I can try a few things without enraging my betters too much. "It has been said that Ignorance is bliss."

I have not found one perfectly flat spot on my lasts or on my feet. After preparing the shank and gluing in the propper covering material I diverted to a little different way of attaching the out sole.

I dipped the outsole in the water bucket which was cut a bit oversize. The leather, not the bucket. After a little drying I glued it liberly (lots of glue)and glued the boot bottom. When the glue is nearly dry I lay it on the boot bottom. I know that leather will shrink a bit while drying and so the extra size has to be trimmed to size after the process is completed.

Next step was to wrap a belt around the sole while on the lasting stand and using the little cobbeling hammer I beat the dog snot out of the sole, hitting the belt only, not the sole. This formed it onto the last which still has some curves.

I then tightly wrap the boot with elastic horse leg wraps and again adminester a mild beating with the little curved hammer.

I then set the boots, with lasts still inside, on the shelf for at least 3 days. I then unwrap them and carefully trim them to fit the last. I can then move on to hand whelting.

I really like the look. Many store bought boots are flat soled. I have not yet ran accross any ones foot that is as flat as the store bought boot bottems. Something has to give.

I know that this method is not totally conventional, however, I plan to keep using it untill I know better or if someone explains why this may not be good. I am often reminded that Just because I think something is a good proceedure doesn't mean that it is. I am also open to critique. If I get my feelings hurt I'll get over it!

Thanx for all your help and information sharing.

Your friend, Larry Peterson

[j1a2g3]

Dw,

How do you get such deep groves in between your stitches on your welt.

I have tried wetting the welt and using a welt tickler but my indents aren't nearly as deep as yours.

Could you expain the process to us?

Thanks in advance, Joel

[dw]

Joel,

You're on the right track I'm sure. There is a unique motion that needs to be applied.

I use horse welting, which is a bit denser that commercial cow. I bevel the edge of the welt, wet it thoroughly , and set boot with the sole on my knee. then the point of the stitch prick is inserted between the welt and the vamp. Pressure is applied to push the blade into the wet leather and, simultaneously, an outward flicking motion is used to score the welt between stitches. If the welt is sufficiently wet (it doesn't have to be soggy) and sufficient pressure is applied throughout the procedure (not enough to actually cut the leather), you should get the same effect that I get.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[spider]

Mr. Frommer:

Nice trick. It really works. Thanks for the tip.

Spider

[dw]

Spider,

No problem. Glad it works for you.

BTW, this is really, really fast. I timed myself once...can't remember what the actual time was, but it impressed even me. With a little experience it can be very accurate too--allowing the pricking to be even and accurately perpendicular to the edge of the welt.

Fast and accurate--what more could you ask for? The "dead guys" knew what they were doing!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Spider,

BTW, in archive 76-100 of this topic, there is four or five photos of stitch pricks (one handmade by me, one antique boughten) and the results.

You may have already found these photos but I thought I'd mention it just in case others were looking in on this conversation.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[spider]

Mr. Frommer:

I've spent the past couple hours trying to hand stitch 12pi. Got a piece of welt and a piece of sole leather. I'm having a devil of a time making it look like anything. I'm using an awl out of an American Straight Needle awl and I've filed trying to get it flat enough to make a neat looking stitch. I think I've got the right angle, it should be 90 degrees from the boot, right? I've played with the thickness of the awl to the point that I've gotten it too thin and the thread wouldn't pass through without grabbing it with pliers and that looked even worse.

What am I missing? Besides talent, of course. I'm sure there's something simple I'm missing...any idea what it could be?

Also, I remember seeing a thread in here about zinc pattern material. Have you ever used old cutting mats for patterns? They work well for me.

With no further particulars, I am,

Yours,

Spider

[dw]

Spider,

I think you probably need a "square" awl. These are actually not just square awls they are a curved awl that is flat in the vertical plane rather than the horizontal plane. And the blade is usually pretty thin even though the shaft is heavier. That way the cut is just a thin cut but the awl shaft will open the hole a little to allow the thread to pass through.

There's several photos of square awls on the forum ...two here:

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2660&p=13347#p13347

Or you could do a key word search. Make sure you set the search to match only for whole words only and "AND" and search in "Open Forum" only.

Mind you I've done ten to the inch for boots and played with twelve to the inch but I've never done sixteen. Although that was considered the standard for "middling work" at one time.

But you have to use bristles to do this and I believe you have to more or less close up each stitch as you go, esp. if you start doing 16dpi or better. Al Saguto could tell you more about this technique as he does it fairly regularly.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on April 21, 2007)

[spider]

Thank you. I'll play with it some more.

Spider

[jenny_fleishman]

Barge question. I roughed up the Soleflex with sandpaper before I cemented it to the insole. If I touched the Barge when it was tacky, a patch would come off leaving clean, exposed Soleflex. This can also be seen in this photo of the heel after the Soleflex was cemented on, but not trimmed yet (I know, I know--a rather wide trimming margin!).

5051.jpg

Is this peeling away of the cement clean off the Soleflex normal, or are the soles going to fall off my shoes? [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img] After drying for a couple hours, the layers SEEM firmly attached. Or is my Barge too thick or am I doing something else wrong?

Jenny